The "World"

If I were Calvinist, that is the first thing I would say. You all need a special dictionary just for those words.

 

Even Godly men are wrong at times, men like Gill, Owen, Clark, Reymond, and Appleby. However I like greatly Appleby's spicy chicken sandwiche :laugh:

I had writen a verse for verse retort with some of the scriptures you posted because Appleby isn't EXCATLY right on all of them though some.
But then again who is??

What I contend is that though 'World' does mean all of something whether man or a group in or of the whole (regarding man), it can not be contended the 'World' EVER is about the saved. Actually the 'World' in every sense it is used (outside of this planet) it is used discribing a Lost Sinfilled 'World' and NEVER those of the redeemed.

Look at your own list and you will see what I mean. The go and look at each time the word world is used and you will see it is never about the redeemed being called the world for we are NOT OF the World but called out of it.

Now after you look those up and with that in mind revisit John 3:16 and tell what the scripture says about who God loved. The Elect or the lost sinfilled World??

 

In the context that you used it, it would mean "the lost sinful World"...However what benifit is the BLOOD and death of Jesus Christ to those that GOD will/does NOT save by HIS GRACE?

Read: Matt. 7 about those who die lost and stand before the Great White Throne (Rev. 20:11-15).

Also, if GOD is not willing that none should perish and if GOD sent Jesus to die for EVERY sinner...

Why is it that JESUS christ will not save everyone?

Why is it that the blood did not cleanse thier sin as well as the elect?

Why is it that Jesus has "my sheep"...IF you are not His sheep, then how would you expect to be saved by God's GRACE? If not by grace, then the only other answer that people will give: "by my good works"...Read Matt 7, Eph 2:8-9, Titus 3:5 and the whole books of Gal. and Romans....No one can earn thier own salvation?

Why is it that not everyone will hear the gosple? if GOD truely wanted to save everyone.

God is a soveriegn GOD. Is GOD soveriegn enough to save ALL PEOPLE if HE wanted to do so?

God will only save the people that HE so choses by GRACE, all other will be forever lost. What choice do they have when GOD condemns them to hell?

"Free will" doctrine seems to state: "I am free to save myself by my good works that I should boast there-in before GOD and those sinners that could not save themselves".....

What a pity. If that's the case everyone would be lost, because NONE of us can save ourselves. Salvation is having a personal relationship with the LORD JESUS CHRIST and that comes only by the GRACE of GOD....

:godisgood:

 

In the context that you used it, it would mean "the lost sinful World"...However what benifit is the BLOOD and death of Jesus Christ to those that GOD will/does NOT save by HIS GRACE?

Read: Matt. 7 about those who die lost and stand before the Great White Throne (Rev. 20:11-15).

Also, if GOD is not willing that none should perish and if GOD sent Jesus to die for EVERY sinner...

Why is it that JESUS christ will not save everyone?

Why is it that the blood did not cleanse thier sin as well as the elect?

Why is it that Jesus has "my sheep"...IF you are not His sheep, then how would you expect to be saved by God's GRACE? If not by grace, then the only other answer that people will give: "by my good works"...Read Matt 7, Eph 2:8-9, Titus 3:5 and the whole books of Gal. and Romans....No one can earn thier own salvation?

Why is it that not everyone will hear the gosple? if GOD truely wanted to save everyone.

God is a soveriegn GOD. Is GOD soveriegn enough to save ALL PEOPLE if HE wanted to do so?

God will only save the people that HE so choses by GRACE, all other will be forever lost. What choice do they have when GOD condemns them to hell?

"Free will" doctrine seems to state: "I am free to save myself by my good works that I should boast there-in before GOD and those sinners that could not save themselves".....

What a pity. If that's the case everyone would be lost, because NONE of us can save ourselves. Salvation is having a personal relationship with the LORD JESUS CHRIST and that comes only by the GRACE of GOD....

:godisgood:

 

Funny, It strikes a nerve to be just what scripture says.
It's ok...just breath. Composed?? Good.

Now the question again:
Does world MEAN what scripture states it as or not?

Irregardless of whether it fits your personal theological bent DOES IT EVER mean anything other than a Lost sinfull World in context EVERY time it occurs in EITHER OT or NT. (outside of the obvious plantet world meaning)


Uh.. No one is saying anything concerning salvation. So got no clue why that is brought up. It still is the same question concerning the word "World"..
Answer me and we will deal with it.


PS, Leave the pettiness of ad hominims about free-will at home. No has EVER claimed such non-sense on here.

But I will say I understand why you would cast such retort out. For if 'world' does not mean the elect you would have to look again to your theology on a couple of points. So I take no offense to you rant.

 

Thank you Allan.

Since we are 'not of the world' 'world' does not always mean all men.

The reprobate should not be confused with the lost because Jesus came to find the lost. The lost sinful world has been found.

For God so loved the world that He was prepared for the cross and also to cut off Israel to gain it.

1 Tim 3:16 ...He appeared in a body, was vindicated by the Spirit, was seen by angels, was preached among the nations, was believed on in the world, was taken up in glory.

The thing is this, one of free will's major planks is based on an ambiguous 'world'. Calvinism does not suffer such weakness. Predestination and election are precise in their meanings regardless of attempts to cause a fog to shroud them. Atonement is given by God to those God chooses and that is sufficient to salvation alone. These words stand as they are but 'world' is like 'bread', it can mean many different things, it goes from the reprobate to the saint, animate and inanimate.

1TI 1:15 Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners--of whom I am the worst

How's that?

john.

 

2Ti 2:14 Remind them of these things, charging them before the Lord not to dispute about words, useful for nothing, for the ruin of the hearers.
MB

 

Paul

Paul at the end of his life realized that people were missunderstanding His letters to thier own destruction.

That is why he told timothy that he is not lying that God did want all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth.

Paul was a man just like one of us. He constantly needed a thorn in his side to keep Him humble. i see where he was pretty high on himself, when he said if you want to see Christ look at him. There is scripture also where he say's. This is what I say not the Lord.

I have to believe God and His word that all means all and world means world, so i myself will not be disquilified for the race. We have to continue to beat our body in submission. I am no one to question God and His word.

God is in control, then He was in control when He had the Bible translated for us.

 

and yet, the reprobate and lost are often spoken of as being part of the world. Regardless of if you want to diverge them (which even I do) the fact is the world is always spoke of as being those IN sin and not EVER as the redeemed.

world here refers not to a people but our universe or planet. Notice the all emcompassing nature it takes with respect to location; among the nation...in the world...and then he was taken up in glory. So it is obviously not talking of a group of people. But even IF it was, notice He was beleived on IN the world and not OF the world. It is not about a people but the whole of all men or the whole of their (known physical world.

What is so ambiguous?? World refers to sinners ALONE and not ever in the scripture as the Lost/Redeemed. There is no abiguousness to it. It is what it is, period. Show it otherwise please.

Again show where it says this. In the OT 'World' is always spoken of as either the planet or the wicked sinners. In the NT it maintains the same idea throught the whole of its renderings. You must read into and change the original intent of the word to get any other meaning (first established in the OT, and revealed in greater context in the NT). Agian, than than display rhetoric, show me where God changes it intent consistantly to maintian it is NOW (in the NT) refering to "world" as two differing groups.

And thus, you prove my point! Is Paul considering himself to be apart of the world (into which Jesus came) or apart of the sinners (for whom Jesus came to save)?? Remember we are to be OF the world but not IN the world for we are no longer APART of the world.

 

But we are all part of the world. All men.

That's right. The redeemed are never spoken about as the world but the redeemed to be are. The atonement was made two thousand years ago but I did not receive it until I received it. Until then I was part of the world as we all are.

So you say that the 'world' here means all sinners not all men. You exclude the Church from this 'world'. Since we were all in sin then all men are in the world and of the world to begin with. Our head being the first Adam.

It isn't until Christ gives us a new nature that we become 'not of the world' as we are translated into the second Adam.

JN 17:6 "I have revealed you to those whom you gave me out of the world. They were yours; you gave them to me and they have obeyed your word.
And Christ distinquishes between fallen men. JN 15:18 "If the world hates you, keep in mind that it hated me first. 19 If you belonged to the world, it would love you as its own. As it is, you do not belong to the world, but I have chosen you out of the world. That is why the world hates you.
John 17:9 I pray for them. I am not praying for the world, but for those you have given me, for they are yours.
Here Jesus spells out the fact that He does not pray for the world yet that is where we all came from. One part of that world contained and contains the saints and not only does He pray for us He also died for us. The fact is that God so loved the world but He does not love all men. We were in and of the world when Christ died for us. We were no different than anyone else ever born. We were the world.

It isn't something one needs to remember. We were goats and now we are sheep. It's a change of nature we have. We are different now to the world. We will exhibit the qualities of sheep by nature not by remembering how to act. WWJD is thinking Christian instead of being Christian.

How's that? If God loves all sinners then in what way is His love shown to those going to Hell? Love is defined in 1 Cor 13:4-8... Stating God loves the entire race of men causes His love to fail. It is not kind to create people going to Hell is it? Love always protects and it does not keep a record of wrongs.

john.

 

Hi Allan;
What determines the meaning of this word "world" in Jn 3:16? It's obvious to me that Christ came to save the lost. Not a particular lost but the Lost who might be saved.
MB

 

How can it be that the Good Shepherd failed to find the lost sheep? By being a Poor Shepherd by any chance MB?

LK 15:3 Then Jesus told them this parable: 4 "Suppose one of you has a hundred sheep and loses one of them. Does he not leave the ninety-nine in the open country and go after the lost sheep until he finds it? 5 And when he finds it, he joyfully puts it on his shoulders 6 and goes home. Then he calls his friends and neighbors together and says, `Rejoice with me; I have found my lost sheep.' 7 I tell you that in the same way there will be more rejoicing in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who do not need to repent.

Matt 1:21 She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins."

1 Peter 2:8 ...They stumble because they disobey the message--which is also what they were destined for.

john.

 

Agreed.

Agreed as well. And until you received Christ you were in the world partaking of all the nature the world is, including the wrath of God. Until you beleive you are under that wrath.

So there are men that are sinless?? Are not all men sinners? Have not all sinned and come short of the glory of God?

I do exclude the redeemed ONCE SAVED. For they are no longer OF the world but now IN the world, for ours is another kingdom and we are foreigners here.

Agreed! I think this is most you and I have EVER agreed. :laugh:

Yes, He does not pray for the world because not all the world will receive Him. Only those whom the Father gave Him does He make petition for. Agreed again. Actually scripture states He died for the sins of the WHOLE world as seen here:

ALL sinners.

So, if I'm understanding you right; God loves the world (all sinners) but God does not love all men (who are sinners). That makes no sense. Do you beleive God can only love one way. Can not God love in the sense that we do since we are made in His image, and that in the likeness of us loving father or mother yet seeing that 'love' toward them as destible in comparison to our love for God. I believe the word scripture uses is 'hate' toward our father, mother, brothers, ext...

Anyway I trying not to go beyond the coversation of what the term "world" actaully means in scripture, that being "sinful man" every time it is used. It is not used ever to signify the "world' of the elect but always in context and content the world of the sinners.

Well, we are to remember as well as do, but this is beside the point of the OP.
Our actions don't determine our salvation anymore than our remembering the things and words of God does. We remember because there must be a renewing of the mind daily and it is due to this renewing our actions grow toward a likeness of Christ. We meditate on scripture that we may grow in Christ (in knowledge, understanding, and wisdom) that we may do the works of God He has set before us to do. You can not have one without the other.

You keep dancing but there is no music playing. If God so loved the world...and Christ is the propitiation for the sins of the WHOLE world...just how has God NOT shown His love towards them, for He has said whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord...believe and be saved...he who believes in me shall not perish... As you can see the biblical definintion of world is not in contradiction with scripture as it is scripture that defines it, but it is in contention with certain peoples veiws to mean what scripture says it actually means.

IF World means sinners then and not the elect as some accert then those some must re-look at a couple of points in their thoelogy. It does mean nessecarily to change them but there does need to be a re-evalutation in light of definition and cohesiveness in theology and scripture.

 

True but it is also not obvious that God knows all those who are His.

The meaning is determind from the other times it has been used in the scritpures. ALL OT passages refer to the wicked,sinful, and non-Jew. In John, well just look at who John ALWAYS used it.

Just for starters...

John uses alot of prophetic language and pasages in his gospel so the his rendering of world is consistant with the OT view of it. (either the planet, or wicked sinners)


Also, the lost is a direct reference to Israel parelleling prophetic passages in throughout the OT as we know the OT calls Israel alone his lost sheep. Jesus has 'other' sheep but scritpure never calls us lost but 'other'. Lost refers to the FACT they once were NOT so. Scritpure discribes Israel thus...all we like sheep have gone astray each to his own way. Israel wandered like a sheep away from from their shepard.

 

Jhn 6:32 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven.

Jhn 6:33 For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.

The whole world is "born again'?

 

It does not say that the world is born again,
First, to whom was Jesus speaking and were THEY all believers?
Notice something interesting here though. Verse 32:

Then Jesus states this bread gives life to the world. Not that it makes all born again but that life comes from Him TO the world - sinners. Now, watch what THEY say:

Now Jesus just said that God has given to THEM the true bread from Heaven, didn't He? Then they state they want this bread being offered, didn't they?
Now, watch yet again:

Jesus first stated the bread is given to the world but now is going to give the criteria as to whom in world will recieve it. Just as manna fell from heaven unless they received what was given they would die but they were to beleive God and follow His instruction concerning to or it woud make them sick and it would mold and get worms. They must act in belief to the word God revealed. It is also the same as the bronze serpent lifted up in the desert. It was available for any but not everyone would look to God for healing through it. It is the reason Jesus states:
You have NOT Beleived!

IOW - Your want it for selfish reason and not the reason it is here for. You do not accept it as truth, but you still want its benifits given you.

God knew everyone who was to receive (irregardless of our view on how predestination operates) that which He gives to the world, for it is they who will believe what God has said and do just what He requires (or do the will God) - Believe. All the Father gives to Jesus (those whom He foreknew) WILL come to Him; AND everyone who comes Jesus will in no wise cast out but keep them safe.

Now if that were true, why did the group Jesus was talking to not get to recieve of Him since they came to Jesus and stated they wanted the bread of heaven He was offering to the world

Because they did not beleive, for the will of the Father is this - That Jesus loose not one of them whom God gave to Him, and that those who SEE Him, must also believe on Him for it is THOSE who will receive eternal life given to the world.

World maintains its meaning and still does no hinderance to the text but actaully establishes it by confirmning other texts it references as well as other passages of scripture to which it correlates.

 

what's IOW mean?

john.

 

Allan,

Indeed. So you now agree that John did not always use the word world to mean all mankind each and every time?

You had used a word in your post before...always.

God does not love each man the same.

But...as things would have it, I believe God so loved the world also. You see we do this every day and think nothing about it. But when it comes to God, many want to limit Him. God loves the world, but not each man. Just as I love food, but hate peas. Both statements are true.