The Wrath of God

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

When you think of the wrath of God, what thoughts come to your mind? Do questions like, who can or will endure the wrath of God, or can one be saved in the end that encounters the wrath of God, ever come to mind?

 

[BobRyan]

I do not see any "Gospel" message that says "receive the wrath of God and THEN be saved".

Rather the whole Gospel message is that Christ as our substitute takes the penalty of sin in our place so that we don't have to experience the eternal damnation experience of the wrath of God against sin.

"God was in Christ reconciling the WORLD to Himself. He made Him who knew no sin to be sin in our behalf that we might become the righteousness of God in HIM" - we have passed out of death and into LIFE.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

To be a bit more specific, do you see any distinction between the wrath of God and the chastisement of God?

 

[BobRyan]

Heb 12 tells us not to reject the discipline of God which seems unpleasant for the moment - but like true children - we will encounter discipline.

I do see a distinction between the wrath of God - the penalty paid for sin - and discipline.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[webdog]

When you think of the wrath of God, what thoughts come to your mind? Do questions like, who can or will endure the wrath of God, or can one be saved in the end that encounters the wrath of God, ever come to mind?

God's justice.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

OK. BR says the wrath of God is the penalty paid for sin, and Webdog says God’s justice. Both of these are interesting comments.

If in fact the wrath of God is the just penalty for sin, (combining both ideas) will any believer endure it, and if one endures it is there any hope offered to escape the eternal nature of its consequence once it is inflicted, i.e., eternal separation from God?

 

[Marcia]

If in fact the wrath of God is the just penalty for sin, (combining both ideas) will any believer endure it, and if one endures it is there any hope offered to escape the eternal nature of its consequence once it is inflicted, i.e., eternal separation from God?

Believers are saved from the wrath of God.

The wrath of God is God's justice that falls on those who are not in Christ.

and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, that is Jesus, who rescues us from the wrath to come. 1 Thess 1.10

For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ 1 Thess 5.9

 

[BobRyan]

OK. BR says the wrath of God is the penalty paid for sin, and Webdog says God’s justice. Both of these are interesting comments.

If in fact the wrath of God is the just penalty for sin, (combining both ideas) will any believer endure it, and if one endures it is there any hope offered to escape the eternal nature of its consequence once it is inflicted, i.e., eternal separation from God?

No one can pay the debt of sin (the second death in the lake of fire) and survive it.

BOTH body AND soul are "destroyed in fiery hell" Matt 10.

That is not what we see happening in Heb 12 where God disciplines His children.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Marcia: Believers are saved from the wrath of God.

The wrath of God is God's justice that falls on those who are not in Christ.

HP: The passage I had in mind in starting this thread is found in Roman 2:1 ¶ Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.
2 But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things.
3 And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?
4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?
5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

Now this passage does not start out by excluding the ‘saved,’ but speaks in a general sense to all those taking the name of Christ. Paul is warning of a judgment to come, and of wrath that is being stored up to be poured out upon those that ‘do not obey the truth.’ It would appear to me that Paul is using this passage to invoke self-examination in each and everyone of us to see if in fact we are of the truth, and if in fact our hope of eternal life is indeed founded upon the Rock Christ Jesus and truth as evidenced by the ‘things we do.’

It would also appear to me by the text that there are some that might indeed believe they have been saved, but do not obey the truth. It is to this group that wrath is being stored up against.

I hear so much today about OSAS and no judgment for the believer, and it is all settled at the initial point of salvation, and nothing I do has anything to do with receiving salvation or keeping salvation, and it is all of God and none of man, and if I do it I am forgiven but if the lost man does it he is damned already, but that all seems at direct antipodes with the warnings found in this passage.

My question is, is it possible to think you are saved, yet at the judgment spoken of here, be found wanting, with the wrath of God as ones only hope, for those who have not OBEYED the truth?

Does this passage hold out any hope for the professing believer that does the same things God condemns in other men?

 

[BobRyan]

According to Matt 7 the answer is a resounding "no".

"Not everyone who SAYS Lord Lord will enter...but he who DOES the will of My Father".

AS you rightly point out - Romans 2 makes this point in triplicate - literally.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

BR: Romans 2 makes this point in triplicate - literally.

HP: Romans 2 is a very important Scriptural reference that cuts through a lot of fog.

 

[Marcia]

HP: The passage I had in mind in starting this thread is found in Roman 2:1 ¶ Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.
2 But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things.
3 And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?

Now this passage does not start out by excluding the ‘saved,’ but speaks in a general sense to all those taking the name of Christ. Paul is warning of a judgment to come, and of wrath that is being stored up to be poured out upon those that ‘do not obey the truth.’ It would appear to me that Paul is using this passage to invoke self-examination in each and everyone of us to see if in fact we are of the truth, and if in fact our hope of eternal life is indeed founded upon the Rock Christ Jesus and truth as evidenced by the ‘things we do.’

It would also appear to me by the text that there are some that might indeed believe they have been saved, but do not obey the truth. It is to this group that wrath is being stored up against.

I snipped some of your post for brevity.

This passage needs to be read in context of Romans 1 and the whole of Romans 2 and the whole book of Romans and the whole teaching of the NT. The Bible is clear that wrath falls on ubelievers. If believers had to fear wrath, then what I posted before would be untrue. But it is not untrue because it's the word of God. Therefore, we know that this passage is not talking about wrath falling on believers.

Furthermore, this passage is Paul talking to Gentiles who believe they are saved by their own works. It is not to believers. Paul never says anywhere else that believers must face the wrath of God. No, in fact, he says the opposite! That believers are saved from the wrath of God. You cannot just dismiss the verses I posted on page one.

Some believe this is addressed to the Jews because of v. 17, when he specifically shows he is talking to Jews. But whether to Jews who believe following the law saves them or to Gentiles who believe being morally good saves them, it is not to believers.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Marcia: Furthermore, this passage is Paul talking to Gentiles who believe they are saved by their own works. It is not to believers. Paul never says anywhere else that believers must face the wrath of God. No, in fact, he says the opposite! That believers are saved from the wrath of God. You cannot just dismiss the verses I posted on page one.

HP: This ‘text isolation to just the deceived believers’ seems self serving to me. I see no such isolation direct mentioned or implied. In fact, the text is clear to show that ALL will be judged either as in Christ or apart from Christ at this judgment. Ro 2:6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

Notice those that obeyed the truth are judged as being obedient and receive glory, honor, immortality and eternal life. Those that are judged as being contentious, not being obedient to the truth, they shall receive indignation and wrath.

There is no even the slightest hint that it is all settled in finality at any point in time for the unbeliever or the believer before this judgment. Neither is there any hint that this is addressed or speaking to only the lost. This judgment is rendered 'to everyman.'

This passage speaks directly to those who judge the actions of others as being in error, yet do the same things. That sounds much like the same thing I hear all the time, that “sure we all sin as the world does, except as a believer I am already forgiven.” Paul is warning us that we will be judged by the same rule that all others will be judged by at this judgment; believers, unbelievers, Jews or Gentiles.

 

[BobRyan]

I snipped some of your post for brevity.

Furthermore, this passage is Paul talking to Gentiles who believe they are saved by their own works. It is not to believers. Paul never says anywhere else that believers must face the wrath of God. No, in fact, he says the opposite! That believers are saved from the wrath of God. You cannot just dismiss the verses I posted on page one.

Some believe this is addressed to the Jews because of v. 17, when he specifically shows he is talking to Jews. But whether to Jews who believe following the law saves them or to Gentiles who believe being morally good saves them, it is not to believers.

I agree that Paul does not limit Romans 2 to "just Jews" in his explicit examples given in the chapter.

However Paul ALSO does not limit his examples to JUST failing examples. He shows BOTH the succeeding case AND the failing case. He never suggests there is anything but saved vs lost. Never another choice other than "justified or not justified". And he deals with both in detail in Romans 2 declaring that this IS the Gospel!

In Christ,

Bob