Theological Gymnastics

[EdSutton]

Here we were busy with yet another factor that implied and confirmed a Sabbath-Resurrection! And I could not see why Ed Sutton was so opposing to the idea!

Our brother, Gerhard Ebersoehn, has demonstrated great prowess on the "Uneven Parallel Bars", although He does not do hardly as well as on the "Balance beam" here.

However, he should note that the 'Uneven Bars' and 'Balance Beam' are both strictly a "Ladies event" in the Olympics.

FTR, EdSutton is not theologically opposed to any particular day of the week, from the first day of the week, to the seventh day of the week, as the day of the resurrection of our Lord. It is just that the Biblical evidence seems to show these events, both in 'type' and actuality, as occurring on the first day of the week, or the day "after the (weekly) Sabbath" from what I am able to ascertain in Scripture.

Ed

 

[EdSutton]

Of course will you sigh heavily and think I'm nuts!

"Sigh!"

FTR, I have never said I thought you were 'nuts', just that I believe you to be incorrect.

So I guess you will therefore be only partially disappointed, you understand!

Ed

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Alright now; I am tired of all the gymnastics.
I wish I could calmly consider theological things theologically ---- that is, "according to the Scriptures" that is the Word -logos of God-theos.

You claimed 'Scriptures for 'sabbath' in Lv for the weekly Sabbath.

May we please see how that is possible or if possible.

See you later, God willing.

 

[EdSutton]

Alright now; I am tired of all the gymnastics.
I wish I could calmly consider theological things theologically ---- that is, "according to the Scriptures" that is the Word -logos of God-theos.

You claimed 'Scriptures for 'sabbath' in Lv for the weekly Sabbath.

May we please see how that is possible or if possible.

See you later, God willing.

I believe you are the one who offered this thread as "Theological gymnastics." But thanks for the offer of the meaning of "theological" just the same.

No, I did not claim this, exactly, although some of the references in Lev. 23 obviously refer to the regular weekly Sabbath, namely Lev. 23: 3, 15b, & 16.

The verses regarding "firstfruits" and the 'wave sheaf' (Lev. 23:9-12) merely say "the day after the Sabbath." I contend that "the day after the Sabbath" means exactly that, and that would include any and/or all 'Sabbaths.' I further contend, that this is the reason that neither "firstfruits" nor "Pentecost" have specific calender dates assigned to them, in Scripture, because they can and do move, if necessary [roughly once in anywhere from some 3-10 years, or so, as the Hebrew calender adds a "make-up" month (called 2nd Abib), when necessary, to keep the religious calender, and/or lunar calender, more or less accurately with the 'solar' calender], due to that exact provision in Scripture (so that they do not fall on a Sabbath, while simultaneously occurring "after the Sabbath"), and since 'Pentecost' is exactly 50 days after "firstfruits" (Lev. 23:16).

Every other 'feast day' listed in Lev. 23 is 'calender specific', with -
"Passover" being the 14th day of the first month (23:5);
"Feast of Unleavened bread" being the 15th day of the same month (23:6);
"Trumpets" being the 1st day, seventh month (23:24);
"Day of Atonement" being the 10th day of the seventh month (23:26); and
"Feast of Tabernacles" on the 15th day of the seventh month (23:33).

It goes without saying that the "regular Sabbath" was every 7th day (Lev. 23:3), and even the later 'added' "Feast of Purim" was decreed to be on the 14th & 15th days of the twelfth month (Esth. 9:17-32).

The reason I said "regular weekly Sabbath" is based on the NT, where the words "first day of the week" refer to obviously and logically the day after the regular weekly Sabbath.

Ed

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Ed Sutton:
" I further contend, that this is the reason that neither "firstfruits" nor "Pentecost" have specific calender dates assigned to them, in Scripture, because they can and do move, "

GE:
Please be paient with me for not having understood you all at once; I am a very slow learner, being me.
Therefore thank you, I step by step am gaining better insight into your position.

As per the above, from which I adduce your argument hinges on, "because they (First Sheaf and First Loaves) can and do move"--- with which I fully agree!

Now since my last post I prepared a little answer to your position as I then understood it, and, not remarkably but quite automatically, I came to concentrate on just this aspect of the 'movement' you refer to. I liked to call it 'floating through the week.

I wanted to illustrate this movement, from the Scriptures. But the Scriptures nowhere gives direct indication as to where the movement starts from, but one inevitably must arrive at the point where due attention to that aspect must be paid.

Please be patient with me further, because I was unable to make my study shorter without loosing something of importance.
So here is it....

Passover’s ‘sabbath’ Not the Sabbath of the Fourth Commandment

I hereby want to show,
1) the day of the passover’s eating, was the day called the passover’s ‘sabbath’, Nisan 15— in Jn19:31 described as “That day being a great-day-sabbath”— and
2) how it is determined in its chronological context, this ‘sabbath’-day was independent of the weekly Sabbath and should not be confused for the ‘weekly’ Sabbath.


Deuteronomy 16, Exodus 12, Leviticus 23, Josua 5 and other Scriptures of the Law

1) Remove leaven on Abib 14, ‘first day’

Ex34: 25Thou shalt not offer the blood of my sacrifice (Abib 14) with leaven.... (Leaven had to be removed on Abib 14 before the sacrifice was killed on Abib 14.) 12: 6The fourteenth day.... 14this day ye shall keep.... 15Even the first day ye shall put away leaven.... for whosoever eateth.... from the first day (Abib 14).... shall be cut off.... 20Ye shall eat nothing (of the sacrifice) leavened; in all your habitations shall ye (also) eat unleavened bread....

(The implication is sacrifice and unleavened bread were eaten together on the ‘first’ day of eating or ‘feast’-day. Sacrifice and unleavened bread were not eaten separately ever after the first passover of the exodus, see Ex12:39.)

2) Kill passover on Abib 14 during day

Dt16: 6Thou shalt sacrifice the passover at (or in the) even (‘even’ in the sense of ‘dawning towards’, that is, in the afternoon) at the going down of the sun.... (the fourteenth day implied.)
Nmb28: 16In the fourteenth day of the first month is the passover of the LORD (killed).
Ex12: 5Your lamb.... 6ye shall keep until the fourteenth day.... Israel shall kill it in the evening (of afternoon).
Lv23: 5 In the fourteenth of the first month at (or in the) even (‘even’ in the sense of ‘dawning towards’, that is, in the afternoon), is the LORD’s passover (killed)....
Jos5: 10The children of Israel.... kept the passover on the fourteenth day of the month at (or in the) even (‘even’ in the sense of ‘dawning towards’, that is, in the afternoon)....

3a) Exodus:- Eat on the fourteenth day

Ex12: 6Keep it until the fourteenth day.... eat the flesh in that night.... 18In the first month on the fourteenth day of the month in the evening (after sunset) ye shall eat unleavened bread....
6.... On the fourteenth day in the evening you shall eat.... 8Eat the flesh in that night roast with fire, and, unleavened bread.... (The implication, again, is sacrifice and unleavened bread were eaten together on the first day of eating or ‘feast-day’. Sacrifice and unleavened bread were not eaten separately ever after the first passover of the exodus, see Ex12:39.)

3b) Later Law:- Eat on the fifteenth day

Lv23: 6On the fifteenth day.... is the feast of unleavened bread.... seven days ye must eat unleavened bread; 7in the first day (of eating unleavened bread, Abib 15) ye shall have an holy convocation....
Nmb28: 17In the fifteenth day of this month is the feast: seven days shalt unleavened bread be eaten; in the first day (of eat, Abib 15) shall be a holy convocation: ye shall do no manner of servile work therein.

Jos5: 11They did eat.... unleavened cakes.... on the day-after [‘after’ Abib 14, v. 10; on ‘the day’-‘mochorath’, Abib 15; ‘mochorath’, e.g., Lv19: 6It shall be eaten the same day (‘yom’) you offer it, and on the following (next or second) day— ‘mochorath’ (which is not ‘morning’-‘boqer’): but if ought remain until the third day (‘yom’), it shall be burned in the fire. Therefore, in Jos5:11, ‘mochorath’=‘yom’]

Lv23: 6On the fifteenth day.... is the feast (of ‘eating’) of unleavened bread:- seven days ye must eat unleavened bread. 7In the first day (of the seven days of eating unleavened bread, Abib 15), ye shall have an holy convocation: ye shall do no servile work therein.

Even Numbers 9 agrees with the passover being killed on Abib 14 and – although not stated in so many words – being eaten in the night of Abib 15, after Abib 14. As in verse 11 implied, “The fourteenth day.... at (or in the) even (‘even’ in the sense of ‘dawning towards’, that is, in the afternoon at the going down of the sun) they shall keep it (or ‘kill the passover’),
and (in the night after, on Abib 15),
eat it with unleavened bread and bitter herbs; they shall leave none of it unto the morning....” or following day-time of Abib 15.

‘Late’
“At even” in, “The fourteenth day at even”, when they shall kill the passover, or, “keep it”, is from ‘ereb’— simply, ‘late’, like in Ex18:14, Lv11:24 et al, Nmb9:3 et al, Dt28:67, Jdg20:23 et al, and virtually is the equivalent of ‘behn ha arbayim’-‘between the two nights’, like in Ex29:39, 30:8, Lv23:5, Nmb9:5,11, 28:4.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

4a) Exodus:- Departed on the fourteenth day

Ex12: 6.... the fourteenth day.... 12I will pass through.... this night.... 14this day shall be unto you a memorial.... 16In the first day an holy convocation.... 17ye shall observe the feast of unleavened bread; for in this selfsame day have I brought your armies out of Egypt. 42It is a night to be much observed for.... this is that night of the LORD.... 13: 3Remember this day in which ye came out.... There shall be no leavened bread be eaten; 4 this day (the fourteenth day) came ye out in the month of Abib

4b) Later Law:- Departed on the fifteenth day

Dt16:1Observe the month of Abib and keep the passover.... for in the month of Abib the LORD thy God brought thee forth out of Egypt by night.... 3that thou mayest remember the day....

Nmb33: 3They departed from Rameses in the first month on the fifteenth day of the first month. On the day after the passover (was killed) the children of Israel went out.... 4while the Egyptians buried all their firstborn (which in Ex12 was clearly on the day after Nisan 14).


5a) Lamb Roasted and Eaten on Abib 15

Dt16: 7And thou shalt roast and eat it....
Ex12: 8Eat the flesh in that night, roast with fire....
9Eat not of it raw.... but [eat] roast with fire....

5b) Lamb and Unleavened Bread Eaten Together on Abib 15

Dt16: 3Thou shalt eat no leavened bread with it; seven days shalt thou eat unleavened bread therewith....
4There shall not any of the flesh which thou sacrificedst the first day at even [14 Abib], remain all night (since sunset) until the morning.
Ex12: 8Eat the flesh in that night, roast with fire and unleavened bread....
18In the first month on the fourteenth day of the month at even / in the evening / late (‘ereb’, context demanding, after sunset) ye shall eat unleavened bread, until the one and twentieth day of the month in the evening / late (‘ereb’, context demanding, every day and after sunset).
19And that which remaineth of it until the morning ye shall burn with fire [in the following day-time, like with the remains of the lamb].
Lv23: 6On the fifteenth day.... is the feast (of ‘eating’) of unleavened bread:- seven day ye must eat unleavened bread. 7In the first day (of the seven days of eating unleavened bread, Abib 15), ye shall have an holy convocation: ye shall do no servile work therein.

The implication is whereas before passover-meal on Nisan 14 after sunset during the night was eaten before midnight, passover-meal now on Nisan 15 after sunset during the night was eaten before midnight.

“Concerning the feasts....”

Further indication and in fact confirmation, of the unmistakable identity of God’s weekly Sabbath Day in clearest distinction from any and all other days-of-‘sabbath’, is their repeated, separate, extraordinary, injunction in the various books of the Law. So in Leviticus, chapter 23, verse 2,
“Concerning the feasts / holy times of the LORD (here ordained), which ye shall proclaim (observe) holy convocations....”, and:-

1) First the Sabbath of God’s creation and redemption, the weekly Sabbath: Verse 3, mentioned before— as most important:-
“Six days shall work be done: but the-Seventh-Day-the-Sabbath-Day-of-Rest, is an holy convocation; ye shall do no work therein in all your dwellings— it is the-Sabbath-(Day)-of-the-LORD.”

After it, verse 4 and onwards, follows:-
“These are the feasts / feast days (generally) .... in their seasons....”.

2) In Exodus 34:18-22 the Sabbath Commandment is put in the centre of the feasts of the LORD,
“21 Six days thou shalt work, but on the Seventh Day thou shalt rest: in earing time and in harvest— thou shalt rest” (the Seventh Day Sabbath of the LORD, no matter which season!)
Besides the centrality of the Seventh Day Sabbath, this placing of it shows the Sabbath’s independence of other feasts as well as their independence, of the Seventh Day Sabbath.

3) In Numbers 29, the Sabbath is implied and alluded to at the end of the listing of the various holy convocational days,
“These things ye shall do unto the LORD in your set feasts, beside your vows and your freewill offerings....” under which the hallowing of the Seventh Day Sabbath by the people of God, must have sorted as a vow and freewill offering from a heart dedicated to and trusting in the LORD God.

No holy day directly or indirectly connects with the Seventh Day Sabbath of the LORD your God— no other holy or convocational day called a ‘sabbath’—
1) not even the Day of Atonement that in Lv16:31 is called and distinguished a ‘sabbath day’
2) not even “the first day of the month” on which also the People “shall have a sabbath” (Lv23:24).
3) The Seventh Day Sabbath in no way except that it pointed to Christ, connects with even the years of ‘sabbath’ found in the ‘fiftieth year-sabbath’ or Jubilee.

But that eschatological connection between the Seventh Day Sabbath and the Passover and the ‘sabbath’ of the Passover of Yahweh, was predestined for and appointed to the Anointed of the LORD to make in the Yom Yahweh, in that He entered in into the Kingdom of God the Kingdom of his Suffering, to triumph and glory in Victory of resurrection from the dead “In the Sabbath’s fullness” (Mt28:1)— namely, “after the sabbath” of the passover, in fulfilment namely, of the “First Sheaf Wave Offering Before the LORD”:- “It shall be a sabbath of rest unto you.... by a statute for ever”.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Summary

A) Day and Month
1) Deuteronomy mentions no dates;
2) Exodus dates all aspects of ‘the passover’, on Abib 14;
3) a: Leviticus and all the other ‘Law’, date passover-sacrifice:-
sacrificed and ‘killed’, in the day that leaven was removed on:- Abib 14; while
b: Leviticus and all the other ‘Law’, date passover-sacrifice:-
eaten and ‘feasted’, in the night after— on Abib 15.
B) “The passover” was eaten
1) while being roasted and
2) together with the first of unleavened bread being eaten;
3) in the night of Nisan 15,
4) on the passover’s own ‘sabbath day’ after Nisan 14
5a) on the ‘sabbath’ associated with passover’s feasting (Jn19:31, Lv23:11,15,16);
5b) on the ‘sabbath’ determined according to the determination of the solar year; and
5c) not “The Sabbath according to the (Fourth) Commandment”.

Conclusion
“The day after the (passover’s) sabbath”, and day of First Sheaf Wave Offering Before the LORD, Nisan 16, in the year of our Lord’s death and resurrection, fell on the weekly Sabbath, and not on the First Day of the week or ‘Sunday’.


Accepted given
1) Exodus dates both sacrifice of passover and meal of passover-sacrifice, “without leaven”, on Nisan 14;
2) All the rest of the Law dates passover-sacrifice sacrificed, on Nisan 14, and passover-sacrifice eaten, on Nisan 15;
3) The acknowledged difference between Exodus and the later Law being of prophetic significance showing how in the end-time the Passover Lamb of God and of us would become Sacrifice Sacrificed, and, Sacrifice Eaten, on Nisan 14, so that all the Scriptures concerning Him might be fulfilled.

Passover’s dates in the New Testament

Abib 14: “first day”, Dt 16:4 x Mk14:12, Mt26:17
“passover killed”, Mk14:12, Lk22:7.
“leaven removed”, Mk14:12, Lk22:7, Mt26:17.
Here is where the Christ of God began entrance into the Kingdom of God in His Suffering and Glory of the Father.



Matthew Henry
‘Commentary’,
In this chapter (Lv23) we have the institution of holy times. 1. The weekly feast of the sabbath ver. 3. 2. The yearly feasts, 1. The passover, the feast of unleavened bread (ver.4-8), to which was annexed the offering of the sheaf of firstfruits, ver. 9-14. 2. Pentecost, ver. 15-22. ....
Verses 1-3
Here is, 1. A general account of the holy times which God appointed (v. 2).... Concerning the holy times here ordained, observe, 1. They are called ‘feasts’.... 2. They are the feasts of the Lord (‘my feasts’). 3. They were proclaimed.... 4. They were to be sanctified....
2. A repetition of the law of the sabbath in the first place.... v. 3....

Verses 4-14
Here again the feasts are called the ‘feasts of the Lord’, because He appointed them....
1. A repetition of the law of the passover, which was to be observed on the fourteenth day of the first month....
2. An order for the offering of a sheaf of the first-fruits, upon the second day of the feast of unleavened bread; the first (day of the feast of unleavened bread) is called the ‘sabbath’, because it was observed as a sabbath (v. 11), and, on the morrow after, they had this solemnity.... a sheaf.... was brought to the priest who was to heave it up.... We find that when they came into Canaan the manna ceased upon the very day that the sheaf of first-fruits was offered; they had eaten of the old corn the day before (Josh.5:11), and then on this day they offered the first-fruits (sheaf). ‘Commentary’



Alexander Cruden,
‘Concordance’, ‘passover’,
The feast (of passover) was kept.... from the 14th to the 21st Nisan.... As the beginning of the month was dependent on the moon there was nearly a month’s difference between the possible times of (its) beginning. This is the reason for the varying dates of our Easter....
There were many rules as to the Passover Supper, some given in Exodus being for the first celebration only.



Actually the beginning of the “first of the months for you”, ‘Abib’, was dependent on the turn of the year with winter solstice, which was determined – it is not stated in the Bible – astrometrically. The day after winter solstice on which between sunset and sunset the new moon occurred (regardless of its visibility), was determined the first day of the First Month (Abib or Nisan). It could occur on any day of the week, naturally. As a result the fourteenth day of the month would also have occurred on any day of the week. Its date simply had nothing to do with the weeks’ cycle. It meant the passover’s “sabbath day” in Lv23:11,15,16, could fall on any ‘week-day’, and occasionally might have coincided with the weekly Sabbath Day.
This has been the universally accepted viewpoint in both Christianity and Judaism until only about a century ago certain ill-informed decided the word ‘sabbath’ in Leviticus 23 refers to the Seventh Day Sabbath. These people relied on documents of the Pharisees who – long after Christ – in their documents disputed the Sadducees’ viewpoint who – allegedly, according to the Pharisees – argued the word ‘sabbath’ in Leviticus 23 referred to the Seventh Day Sabbath. There never existed a source originally the Sadducees’ with this claim. Regardless, the enthusiasts took hold of the Sadducees’ second hand theory to build a case for Sunday-worship on the presumption of a coincidence of Sunday and the Resurrection and Pentecost / First Sheaf Wave Offering and First Loaves Wave Offering.

Needless to say, their theory has been nothing but conjecture and groundless speculation, refuted by every fact of Scripture, science and Christian and Judaic tradition.

This then established, that “the sabbath” and “the day after the sabbath” in Lv23:11,15,16 could have occurred on any week-day, it is established both First Sheaf Wave Offering and First Loaves Wave Offering, in the old dispensation or ministration, occurred on any week-day— the fact of which forces one to completely rely on the information given in the Gospels, to determine on which day of the week First Sheaf Wave Offering and First Loaves Wave Offering in the year of the death and resurrection of Jesus, indeed occurred. Which to find out and illustrate, I have been doing for many years, as far as I could see, from anybody’s every possible angle of approach— besides, having tried to show how the Sabbath Day promised in the end to be just the day upon which Christ would rise from the dead.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

But now, Edsutton, this statement of yours,
" I further contend, that this is the reason that neither "firstfruits" nor "Pentecost" have specific calender dates assigned to them, in Scripture, because they can and do move, "
brings a whole new dimension to the debate.

Because it is one thing for a feast to 'move' or 'float' through or across or zig-zag through or over the week-days, and totally another, to have dates or be fixed to certain days of the months of the solar year; in other words, not to have 'calendar-names' or "calendar dates".

 

[EdSutton]

But now, Edsutton, this statement of yours,
" I further contend, that this is the reason that neither "firstfruits" nor "Pentecost" have specific calender dates assigned to them, in Scripture, because they can and do move, "
brings a whole new dimension to the debate.

Because it is one thing for a feast to 'move' or 'float' through or across or zig-zag through or over the week-days, and totally another, to have dates or be fixed to certain days of the months of the solar year; in other words, not to have 'calendar-names' or "calendar dates".

Actually, only "first-fruits" technically "moved" (and that by only one day), in order to be "after the Sabbath" when the "normal" date would be 16 Nisan, to 17 Nisan, when 16 Nisan would occur "on the Sabbath", obviously meaning the regular weekly Sabbath, soince there is no 'hint' of 16 NIsan (or 17 Nisan) actually being declared a Sabbath. So when "first-fruit" moved by that one day, so did Pentecost (also by one day), for Pentecost was fixed at 50 days, in relation to the offering of the wave-sheath.

There was no Scriptural prohibition, that Pentecost could not fall "on the sabbath" that I can find in Scripture, and in fact, when "first-fruits" normally 16 Nisan, would fall one the sixth day of the week, then Pentecost would have to occur "on the Sabbath" exactly 50 days later than "first-fruits."

Ed

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

I have of course in the meantime - before your last post - prepared this review of our latest discourse:-


ES:
I further contend, that this is the reason that neither "firstfruits" nor "Pentecost" have specific calendar dates assigned to them, in Scripture, because they can and do move....

GE:
Please be patient with me for not having understood you all at once; I am a very slow learner, being me.
Therefore thank you, I step by step am gaining better insight into your position.

As per the above, from which I adduce your argument hinges on, "because they (First Sheaf and First Loaves) can and do move"--- with which I fully agree!

Now since my last post I prepared a little answer to your position as I then understood it, and, not remarkably but quite automatically, I came to concentrate on just this aspect of the 'movement' you refer to. I liked to call it 'floating through the week.

I wanted to illustrate this movement, from the Scriptures. But the Scriptures nowhere gives direct indication as to where the movement starts from, but one inevitably must arrive at the point where due attention to that aspect must be paid.

Please be patient with me further, because I was unable to make my study shorter without loosing something of importance.
So here is it....

But now, ES, this statement of yours,
"I further contend, that this is the reason that neither "firstfruits" nor "Pentecost" have specific calendar dates assigned to them, in Scripture, because they can and do move,"
brings a whole new dimension to the debate.
Because it is one thing for a feast to 'move' or 'float' through or across or zigzag through or over the week-days, and totally another, to have dates or be fixed to certain days of the months of the solar year; in other words, not to have 'calendar-names' or "calendar dates".

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

The seriousness of the urgency of Nisan 16 and the First Sheaf Wave Offering Before the LORD above all else relates to – in truth – the resurrection of Christ from the dead. He could not be held in death! “Him, being delivered (First Sheaf of firstfruits) by the determinate council and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain: Whom God hath raised up (First Sheaf Wave Offering Before the LORD), having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that He should be holden of it.... because Thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt Thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. Thou hast made known to me the ways (and times) of life; Thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance....(when I awake from death)”

Now see this:- Nisan 16, and, Pentecost— “.... This Jesus hath God raised up.... therefore, being by the right hand of God exalted and, having received of the Farther the Promise of the Holy Ghost, He hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear!”

Not the resurrection of Christ, or the down-pouring of the Holy Spirit, could vary one day or one hour from “the determinate council and foreknowledge of God”. “When the day of Pentecost was fully come”! Nisan 16 of all dates given to men in the determinate council and foreknowledge of God, could not be altered:- since this, was its once for all Fulfilment in Christ, “the all in all fulfilling Fullness of God”.

“From the day after the sabbath (of the passover), count!” Rather meaningless and confusing if one would not know from which day to start counting or which day to arrive at!

Then see all the ‘times of life’ decreed by God, converge in the Seventh Day Sabbath, just as all Prophecy and Promise and Law, converged in the One Sacrifice and One Offering Before the LORD of First Sheaf Waved before the LORD— Jesus Christ our Lord in resurrection from the dead. We no longer observe days and months and seasons and years, but the all times-encompassing “Sabbath of the LORD your God” in that He raised His Christ from the dead therein.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

ES:
The verses regarding "firstfruits" and the 'wave sheaf' (Lev. 23:9-12) merely say "the day after the Sabbath." I contend that "the day after the Sabbath" means exactly that, and that would include any and/or all 'Sabbaths.'

GE:
You say, to begin with, “merely”— “I contend that "the day after the Sabbath" means exactly that” : ‘merely’! but then, this ‘merely’ and ‘exactly’ "the day after the Sabbath" of yours, becomes this:- “that would include any and/or all 'Sabbaths.'” Are you not inconsistent?

No, ‘the sabbath’ here mentioned, implies its irrefutable relation to the passover’s days and dates and sequence. I have above shown how ‘exactly’ no ‘mere’ ‘sabbath’ would be worthy of the Sabbath of Jesus’ resurrection from the dead. God showed His preferred day; which He, appointed, and made, and utilised, servant of the Servant of the LORD.

ES:
I further contend, that this is the reason that neither "firstfruits" nor "Pentecost" have specific calendar dates assigned to them, in Scripture....”

GE:
In a previous discussion of ours I referred you to 2Chron29-30. Every word of mine of then, still stands.

ES:
.... because they can and do move, if necessary [roughly once in anywhere from some 3-10 years, or so, as the Hebrew calendar adds a "make-up" month (called 2nd Abib), when necessary, to keep the religious calendar, and/or lunar calendar, more or less accurately with the 'solar' calendar], due to that exact provision in Scripture (so that they do not fall on a Sabbath, while simultaneously occurring "after the Sabbath"), and since 'Pentecost' is exactly 50 days after "firstfruits" (Lev. 23:16).


GE:
About ES saying, “....to keep the religious calendar, and/or lunar calendar, more or less accurately with the 'solar' calendar....” We could agree.... this is ‘technical’. I maintain – which is what I believe the Old Testament ‘ministration’ maintained – that every winter solstice was determined scientifically: with the ‘exact’ science of ‘astrometrics’ or astronomical calculation. The Jews had the knowledge and skill, I believe. So every year, they calculated the solstice exactly, and next calculated the first new moon (without needing to observe it). But because their months were only 30 days long, they got behind on the solar year, and could have adjusted their ‘religious calendar’ the way you proposed. I have no problem with that; and besides cannot present a better proposal. Whether not your way or your way, fact remains, the dating of the days and months and the week-cycle were independent of one another. And thereto according, Nisan 15 passover-‘sabbath’ could fall and indeed did fall on any day of the week. History and Jewish tradition agree and confirm; there is no doubt about it.

Therefore, all and “every”, “'feast day' listed in Lev. 23 is 'calendar specific', with -
"Passover" being the 14th day of the first month (23:5);
"Feast of Unleavened bread" being the 15th day of the same month (23:6)....”—

....and First Sheaf Firstfruits being the 16th day of the same month, in the foregoing verses 11,15,16 being “the day after the sabbath”.... of the passover.

About ES saying,“....and First Loaves firstfruits included and as part and whole of ‘passover’ as such”— GE: fifty days (seven weeks plus one day) counted from Abib 16 inclusive. (That is what it means to be consistent.)

And I agree with ES, saying, “It goes without saying that the "regular Sabbath" was every 7th day (Lev. 23:3”.

ES:
The reason I said "regular weekly Sabbath" is based on the NT, where the words "first day of the week" refer to obviously and logically the day after the regular weekly Sabbath.

GE:
“"First(1) day of(2) the week(3)"”, are the words “the NT”, uses. It does not use the words from Leviticus, “the(1) day after(2) the sabbath(3)”— NO, correlation!

“"First day of the week"”, are the words “the NT”, uses, and they “refer to obviously and logically the day after the regular weekly Sabbath.” “The day after the sabbath” are the words Leviticus uses, and they, refer to obviously and logically, the very day after the ‘sabbath’ there dated and named, Nisan 15, passover’s “Feast”!

Let us compare apples with apples.

But yes, “"First day of the week"”, are the words “the NT”, uses, and they “refer to obviously and logically the day after the regular weekly Sabbath.” Now it is up to us to go ascertain what in fact, occurred on the “First day of the week”— was Jesus resurrected on it? Or did Jesus appear on it?

 

[EdSutton]

"Houston, We Have a Problem!"

The seriousness of the urgency of Nisan 16 and the First Sheaf Wave Offering Before the LORD above all else relates to – in truth – the resurrection of Christ from the dead. He could not be held in death! “Him, being delivered (First Sheaf of firstfruits) by the determinate council and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain: Whom God hath raised up (First Sheaf Wave Offering Before the LORD), having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that He should be holden of it.... because Thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt Thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. Thou hast made known to me the ways (and times) of life; Thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance....(when I awake from death)”

Now see this:- Nisan 16, and, Pentecost— “.... This Jesus hath God raised up.... therefore, being by the right hand of God exalted and, having received of the Farther the Promise of the Holy Ghost, He hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear!”

Not the resurrection of Christ, or the down-pouring of the Holy Spirit, could vary one day or one hour from “the determinate council and foreknowledge of God”. “When the day of Pentecost was fully come”! Nisan 16 of all dates given to men in the determinate council and foreknowledge of God, could not be altered:- since this, was its once for all Fulfilment in Christ, “the all in all fulfilling Fullness of God”.

“From the day after the sabbath (of the passover), count!” Rather meaningless and confusing if one would not know from which day to start counting or which day to arrive at!

Then see all the ‘times of life’ decreed by God, converge in the Seventh Day Sabbath, just as all Prophecy and Promise and Law, converged in the One Sacrifice and One Offering Before the LORD of First Sheaf Waved before the LORD— Jesus Christ our Lord in resurrection from the dead. We no longer observe days and months and seasons and years, but the all times-encompassing “Sabbath of the LORD your God” in that He raised His Christ from the dead therein. (Bull! The blue in this last paragraph is attempted 'theology' to support a particular conclusion, since Scripture simply does not declare this that you have said, and that I have marked, anywhere!)

"Houston, we have a problem!!"

That problem I have highlighted in blue, in your post. Plus, added one loud, and terse comment in red, at the end, above.) See my next post, where I will conform my point.

Ed

 

[EdSutton]

Sorry, I just goofed up and lost my second post. It is entirely germane to my last post, but it is far too long to reconstruct now, since I have a very limited amount of time, due to a previous engagement. I will try and finish it much later this evening.

Thanks for your patience.

Ed

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

ES:
Actually, only "first-fruits" technically "moved" (and that by only one day), in order to be "after the Sabbath" when the "normal" date would be 16 Nisan, to 17 Nisan, when 16 Nisan would occur "on the Sabbath", obviously meaning the regular weekly Sabbath, since there is no 'hint' of 16 Nisan (or 17 Nisan) actually being declared a Sabbath. So when "first-fruit" moved by that one day, so did Pentecost (also by one day), for Pentecost was fixed at 50 days, in relation to the offering of the wave-sheaf.

There was no Scriptural prohibition, that Pentecost could not fall "on the sabbath" that I can find in Scripture, and in fact, when "first-fruits" normally 16 Nisan, would fall on the sixth day of the week, then Pentecost would have to occur "on the Sabbath" exactly 50 days later than "first-fruits."

GE:
Consider, ES, “Actually, only "first-fruits" technically "moved" (and that by only one day), in order to be "after the Sabbath" when the "normal" date would be 16 Nisan, to 17 Nisan, when 16 Nisan would occur "on the Sabbath", obviously meaning the regular weekly Sabbath, since there is no 'hint' of 16 Nisan (or 17 Nisan) actually being declared a Sabbath.”

The conditions (per definition) when – according to ES – the alleged ‘movement’ of “first-fruits” from “16 Nisan to 17 Nisan”, would incur, would be:-
a) “....when the "normal" date would be 16 Nisan....”, and
b) “....when 16 Nisan would occur "on the Sabbath".
That says, “....when the "normal" date .... 16 Nisan.... would occur "on the Sabbath".... obviously meaning the regular weekly Sabbath”; and that says, “....when.... 16 Nisan.... would occur "on the Sabbath". So, “when 16 Nisan would occur on the Sabbath”, then, “first-fruits only”, “technically ‘moved’”, “to 17 Nisan”. But, obviously – according to ES – the date, 16 Nisan, stayed, 16 Nisan. The significance of the day of 16 Nisan separated itself from the day of 16 Nisan, to reside in 17 Nisan.

The Reasons (per definition) why – according to ES – the alleged ‘movement’ of “first-fruits” from “16 Nisan to 17 Nisan”, would incur, would be:-

1) “"first-fruits" technically "moved"”;
2) “in order to be "after the Sabbath"”;
3) “since there is no 'hint' of 16 Nisan (or 17 Nisan) actually being declared a Sabbath”— which all is no more than a presupposition, unproved; no more than assertion and vain contention, void of reason, and baseless; no more than conjecture without provocation or necessity. In one word: Imagination; no, vanity.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Why First Sheaf wave Offering cannot fall on or ‘mean’ “the regular weekly Sabbath”:-

1) “"first-fruits" technically "moved"”—
Why rejected:
“first-fruits” never “moved”; the date of its occurrence and observance never ‘moved’ or changed; the day of the week of its occurrence and observance ‘moved’ or changed from weekday to weekday, irrespective which, from year to year!

2) “in order to be "after the Sabbath"”:-
It was never a reason or the situation that Nisan 16 and / or ‘First Sheaf of Firstfruits’ had to become something it not normally was “in order to be "after the Sabbath"”; Nisan 16 and / or ‘First Sheaf of Firstfruits’ never had to avoid at the same time to be “the regular weekly Sabbath”; in other words, Nisan 16 and / or ‘First Sheaf of Firstfruits’ never had to avoid to coincide with “the regular weekly Sabbath”; there never was any reason for it.

3) “since there is no 'hint' of 16 Nisan (or 17 Nisan) actually being declared a Sabbath”

“Since there is no 'hint' of 16 Nisan”, says ES, or, because of the fact “there is no 'hint' of 16 Nisan actually being declared a Sabbath”, that is why, says ES, “obviously.... when 16 Nisan would occur "on the Sabbath".... the regular weekly Sabbath (is meant)”. Circular reasoning! “When 16 Nisan would occur "on the Sabbath"”, it obviously will be “meaning the regular weekly Sabbath”— whether there at all were a “'hint' of 16 Nisan actually being declared a Sabbath” or no! Would this obvious and indisputable possibility need, that there should be some “'hint' of 16 Nisan actually being declared a Sabbath” to be possible or to occur? If, or “....when 16 Nisan would occur "on the Sabbath"”, it would occur on the Sabbath! So what? Why should Nisan 16 not occur on “the regular weekly Sabbath”, seeing it ‘moves’ through the days of the week and some time or other must coincide with “the regular weekly Sabbath”? Why should there be a “'hint' of 16 Nisan actually being declared a Sabbath”, for Nisan 16 to “occur "on the Sabbath””? It’s nonsensical!

Is there anything that says, Nisan 16, may not occur on “the regular weekly Sabbath”? Indeed, for ES, Nisan 16 may occur on “the regular weekly Sabbath”, but not “First Sheaf Wave Offering”! That is not allowed --- not that it is not possible by any reason or cause or logic; it is simply not permissible— as if such coincidence would destroy virtue!

Why, should Nisan 16 “actually (be) declared a Sabbath” if it is to be identified, “the day after the sabbath” in Lv23:11,15,16? It should not be “declared a Sabbath”— it should be ‘declared’ / ‘decreed’ / “proclaimed”, “the day after the sabbath” of the context of Lv23:11,15,16, the passover’s sabbath of Nisan 15!

Thus “the day after the sabbath” of the context of Lv23:11,15,16 – the passover’s sabbath of Nisan 15 – Nisan 16 “in its season”— the season of harvest,
1) shall be declared, decreed and “proclaimed”, dated and named, Nisan 16 first day of the harvest; and
2) shall be “counted”, given account of, numbered, first day of fifty days to Pentecost; and
3) shall be “observed”, day of “First Sheaf Wave Offering Before the LORD”!