theology drives style?

[nodak]

If this has been asked and answered, please just refer me to the right thread.

If it belongs in Baptist Only section, somebody please reword and enter it there.

Ok--here is what dh and I are pondering as we consider being on our church's evangelism committee:

If you believe the tenents of Calvinism, you might see evangelism as the responsibility to spread the Word of God, to spread the gospel as far and wide as possible, and to pray for the salvation of the lost. In other words, you "do church" and "do evangelism" in the manner you understand to be ordered by the Word, and leave the results with God. If He ordains high numbers saved, good. If you serve in an area where few will respond, also good as long as you have faithfully obeyed His instructions.

If you are Arminian, modified Arminian, free grace, or any form of decisional salvation oriented, you might see yourself as responsible to do whatever it takes to get that "yes Lord" decision from someone. From this root you get revivalistic services, emergent church, contemporary and all other engage the culture type movements, clown communions, etc.

We tend to fall in the first camp, and serve in a church that would definitely fall into the second camp. We will not cause a rift over this, and so may decide not to serve on that committee. If you also would fall into that first camp, can you steer us to resources that would help us gently lead?

Thanks in advance!

 

[Revmitchell]

or any form of decisional salvation oriented, you might see yourself as responsible to do whatever it takes to get that "yes Lord" decision from someone. From this root you get revivalistic services, emergent church, contemporary and all other engage the culture type movements, clown communions, etc.

Apparently you do not realize the the emerging and emergent camp hold a great deal of reformed folks. And this mind set is a result of utilitarianism not Calvinism vs. decisional.

 

[rbell]

Hey, I'm impressed.

This is the most creative slam you've come up with regarding worship style you consider "contemporary."

You get an A for imagination.

'Tis sad you feel the need to disparage other believers, but at least you do so creatively...

 

[nodak]

rbell, you might be surprised at the definition of "contemporary". Probably what you think of as "traditional" is actually "contemporary."

I am deeply saddened and offended that coming to BaptistBoard with a question, knowing there are others with much more education than I have, gets a slap in the face such as you delivered to me.

No wonder baptisms are down. No wonder attendance is down.

Who in their right mind, not a Baptist, would subject themselves to an atmosphere where asking a simple heartfelt question brings such slander and ridicule?

Thanks for the eye opening "help".

 

[DHK]

I don't believe that leaving the results with God (option A) is Calvinistic. That is what the Bible commands us to do in Acts 1:8. We are to be his witnesses. We sow. We water. It is God that gives the increase.

On the other hand what you described in scenario B can lead to serious error. It sounds like "the means justifies the ends." Do whatever you can (whether Biblical or not) in order that souls may be saved. That of course is not Biblical. I am not a Calvinist, but I don't agree with what you described in your second scenario.

 

[sag38]

Generally when few are being reached the church is failing in her job to go out into the harvest field. It's not that there aren't that many "elect" people living around you. Don't blame God if the harvest is low when all around you the field is white unto harvest. That is a cop out in my opinion.

I see a great need to take the church out of the church building (comfort zone). I see a great need to engage the culture just as Paul did in Ephesus by moving out of the local synagogue and into the public square. But, I see no where in the Bible where people were manipulated into making decisions to follow Christ. Don't allow your belief that God does the calling to keep you from being innovative in engaging the people and culture around you.

 

[Tom Bryant]

Sag38, how are you engaging the culture and seeing people come to Christ as the result of your efforts?

Generally when few are being reached the church is failing in her job to go out into the harvest field. It's not that there aren't that many "elect" people living around you. Don't blame God if the harvest is low when all around you the field is white unto harvest. That is a cop out in my opinion.

Is the harvest white unto harvest everywhere? Was it white unto harvest everywhere during the ministry of Christ? I don't think so.

Missionaries throughout the world are out of their "comfort zone" and into the world, ut are not reaching crowds of people. We have a missionary in our church who served God among the Touareg people for 25 years before he saw the first Muslim come to faith in Christ.

It is God who gives the increase.

 

[sag38]

I did not say getting out of your comfort zone would bring a harvest. But, if there are lost people around your church then the field is white unto harvest and you and I are responsible to go to them. If they arent' coming to us then we must go to them. And, to use the excuse that no one is being saved, so God must not have elected them, is un-Biblical. Was it not Jesus who saw the large crowd and stated that the field was white unto harvest? Maybe not many of them believed, I don't know. Bu, that did not negate His compassion for them and the desire that they at least hear the good news. Nor did it remove the responsibility of workers to "go" forth into that field. And, in the Great Commission I was told to "go." What about you?

 

[rbell]

rbell, you might be surprised at the definition of "contemporary". Probably what you think of as "traditional" is actually "contemporary."

I am deeply saddened and offended that coming to BaptistBoard with a question, knowing there are others with much more education than I have, gets a slap in the face such as you delivered to me.

No wonder baptisms are down. No wonder attendance is down.

Who in their right mind, not a Baptist, would subject themselves to an atmosphere where asking a simple heartfelt question brings such slander and ridicule?

Thanks for the eye opening "help".

I hate that you're offended.

You'd probably be surprised, but I've served as music minister at some VERY "traditional" churches, and I now lead worship in some "contemporary" circles. Be careful what you assume.

Be assured that I believe that God can be glorified in either....and the Spirit can be quenched in either as well.

But like it or not, many of your posts have been "pot-shots" at worship styles with which you disagree. I found your post to be another along that vein.

If I mis-interpreted your post, my apologies. I was following what I found to be a trend.

 

[Tom Bryant]

You were the one who said that's what we ought to be doing. So I was just wondering how you have seen that happen in your life. ow are you leading your church engaging the culture in your going? How are you doing that in your own personal life?

btw, Jesus used the phrase when he was speaking about the men in Samaria coming out to see Him after he had spoken to the Samaritan woman.

 

[Revmitchell]

You were the one who said that's what we ought to be doing. So I was just wondering how you have seen that happen in your life. ow are you leading your church engaging the culture in your going? How are you doing that in your own personal life?

btw, Jesus used the phrase when he was speaking about the men in Samaria coming out to see Him after he had spoken to the Samaritan woman.

Do you need to go get you an "H"and "B" key for your computer. They seem to be missing.:laugh:

 

[Tom Bryant]

Do you need to go get you an "H"and "B" key for your computer. They seem to be missing.:laugh:

One of those intermittent quirks from window vista... :tongue3: or from my fingers... I choose to blame _ill Gates.

 

[rbell]

Do you need to go get you an "H"and "B" key for your computer. They seem to be missing.:laugh:

I hope he's not planning a "hubbub," then...

 

[nodak]

rbell--yes, we do seem to be speaking past each other rather than to each other.

Your musical background and education are, if I understand, USA minister of music?

My background includes family members who are church musicians, a grand ole opry member, grand ole opry musicians, a high school music teacher, and European musicians.

So when I speak of contemporary vs traditional, yes, the usual definitions do play in there--usual to the church scene in the USA. But also, having worshipped among European high church folks for several years, the definition of "traditional" is probably different than yours. The group I worshipped with (and indeed much of the world) would consider a "traditional" Baptist service with all its' revivalist gospel songs as also "contemporary."

As to those thinking it is a cop out to focus on presenting the gospel rather than engaging the culture: our church is planning to intensively begin reaching out to a large transgender segment in our community, and will continue to reach out to a large group of meth addicts. Just how far are we to engage

If I am going to be one of the musicians, one of the teachers, and one of the outreach workers I need to find a source of material that presents the gospel and teaches about God clearly WITHOUT falling into the trap of remaking God in the lost person's image.

Now, can you all help me?

 

[FriendofSpurgeon]

If this has been asked and answered, please just refer me to the right thread.

If it belongs in Baptist Only section, somebody please reword and enter it there.

Ok--here is what dh and I are pondering as we consider being on our church's evangelism committee:

If you believe the tenents of Calvinism, you might see evangelism as the responsibility to spread the Word of God, to spread the gospel as far and wide as possible, and to pray for the salvation of the lost. In other words, you "do church" and "do evangelism" in the manner you understand to be ordered by the Word, and leave the results with God. If He ordains high numbers saved, good. If you serve in an area where few will respond, also good as long as you have faithfully obeyed His instructions.

If you are Arminian, modified Arminian, free grace, or any form of decisional salvation oriented, you might see yourself as responsible to do whatever it takes to get that "yes Lord" decision from someone. From this root you get revivalistic services, emergent church, contemporary and all other engage the culture type movements, clown communions, etc.

We tend to fall in the first camp, and serve in a church that would definitely fall into the second camp. We will not cause a rift over this, and so may decide not to serve on that committee. If you also would fall into that first camp, can you steer us to resources that would help us gently lead?

Thanks in advance!

I think I understand (and agree with) your questions/concerns as I am definitely in camp one but grew up in camp two. First, you may want to look at Evangelism Explosion material developed originally by D. James Kennedy. As you know, DJK was certainly in camp one, but also very evangelistic. Secondly, I would focus on serving the community (with love) in which you live (which is very different than where most of us are), while still staying true to Biblical principles. Probably much harder in practice than in theory, but people can sense genuine love. God's best as you minister in a very tough place.

 

[nodak]

Thank you! I had forgotten about EE, and in fact have some material packed away from that.

More and more I am convicted that to reach out to these two groups one MUST determine beforehand how you will reach out, and be prepared to state the truth and let the chips fall where they may.

That said, truth needs to be stated in love, but it needs to be stated.

My personal musical preference is hymns, but I hope to find some new contemporary music that is all about God rather than all about the worshipper's feelings about God. If you think of something, let me know.

Also, while we might do some contemporary we intend to avoid rhythm heavy rock style music as it will be, we feel, just too tempting for them. It may do more harm by reminding them where they are being called from.

Obviously, it is easy to see how they will be needing clear regeneration (new person.) Isn't it odd how we seldom see that with straight "nice" people but we all still need that clear break with the flesh and the past.