There are MANY things which disturb me about CCM

[yod]

That title is a quote from Brother Enda and I respect his opinion as a brother in the Lord but I'd like to discuss this topic from a place of agreement and go as far as we can.

I would agree that there are SOME things which disturb me about CCM....

but does that mean it is entirely ungodly? This is where I have to disagree with my brother.

There was a time when I believed this way. I thought anything that wasn't worship being sung in my congregation was surely from the devil himself. I might not be exactly like Bro Enda but I can understand that point of view.

In my case, tragedy struck. I had been married for 14 years but born again for only 5 years when my wife left me and our four children. I resigned from the music team and went to another church where I could sit in the back anonomously while the Lord healed me.

It was tough....I couldn't hardly choke worship songs out of my mouth. I was hurting more than I can tell you..

One day, I heard a song coming from my son's room. It was Bryan Duncan's song "I'll Not Forget You".

This was the beginning of my healing. That album entitled "Mercy" spoke to my situation in a way that no hymns or worship chorus could do. It ministed me back to Jesus.

There were a few other songs during those days that carried me when I would consider suicide. "Hold Me Jesus" by Rich Mullins, "Summer Solstice" by Susan Ashton...etc...etc..

The point is that CCM does have a place of ministry though it might not be appropriate for the morning church service.

In my case, it probably saved my life...

I hope that we can understand why Enda sees this as a threat to the body. I'm sure he has some valid points...but since I love a good debate I also hope to convince him that there is more under the surface that he isn't considering.

Hop in...the water will soon be warm!

 

[yod]

Bro Enda says:

As I see it, discussing the different aspects and problems with CCM would not achieve much. I look on the whole package and reject it as ungodly, thats where I am coming from, like Dr Bob, I may be throwing the baby out with the bathwater but I think that although there may well be some fairly good lyricists within the CCM industry, they should come out of that particular market.

there is plenty to start with;

1. what is the "whole package"? Are you talking about from musicians to writers to singers to management to booking agencies to radio stations to record labels to distributors to bookstores to consumers?

I agree that there are plenty of things to "fix" in all aspects of that chain...but your position seems rather extreme. Do you have this belief because you don't like it personally or do you believe that it dishonors the Lord?


2. What do you define as CCM? Does it include Southern Gospel? What about hymns that have been redone? Does this include praise & worship that is being played on the radio? How do you differentiate the differences and why? What makes a song CCM? Are you sure it's not just the intrumentation or production that you find offensive?

3. Where would a CCM lyricist go if he "came out of it"? What other market is there?

 

[DanielFive]

Yod,

I'm not sure where exactly you want me to go with this. Do you want me to tell you the problems and concerns I would have about the personal experience you've described above. I would have a problem with what you are suggesting here but maybe its not wise to talk about your personal experience, I wouldn't want to offend you in any way.

Perhaps you want to highlight all the 'positive' aspects of Contemporary Christian Music and let me deal with them one by one.

Obviously you feel that one positive aspect of CCM is that the Lord can use it to minister to those who are experiencing problems. Is there anything else you want to add to that, or should I go ahead and tell you what I think about that point?

Its your call...

Enda

EDITED to say that this post was made before I saw your second post. I'll deal with that post tomorrow, take it that I have to justify MY stance to YOU then.

 

[yod]

Brother Enda,

you don't have to "justify" anything. I hope we can keep this conversation out of that realm.

I would just like to know how you come to this conclusion.

Frankly, it seems like you are judging the intent of literally millions of people [whom you don't even know] to be at odds with God...and I would just like to know why. Maybe I can't make a dent in you but I want to at least understand that view.

Feel free to blast away at me personally if that helps your prosecution of this topic. I know the stigma of divorce all too well so I doubt you will surprise me.

 

[John Alden]

I don't think you can take a broad stroke approach to this type of music. Some of it is very good and some isn't. It depends on a lot of things: the lyrics, who's singing it, what instruments are used.

Having been brought up in a church that had "Negro Spirituals" (I hope the term doesn't offend anyone, but that is what they were called back then) I sort of like Godly music that lifts your spirits and makes you feel His presence down to your toes and the more contemporary stuff has a lot of what the old songs did....feeling.

 

[Dr. Bob]

Don't think anyone will make that unfortunate leap from "CCM to Divorce". Agree that keeping that aspect separate is wise. Don't see any corelation.

It is not unusual, though, for people to link the "rock" style of music to moral issues (the old "sex, drugs and rock-and-roll" syndrome).

So the issue of behavior of the listener and music is still valid.

 

[Baptist in Richmond]

Originally posted by yod:
Feel free to blast away at me personally if that helps your prosecution of this topic. I know the stigma of divorce all too well so I doubt you will surprise me.

STOP CURRENT TOPIC!!

Yod,

Perhaps my church is too liberal, as our Pastoral Staff and Congregation would immediately reach out to you and your wonderful family the minute your separation was common knowledge. The fact that you placed a "

" at the end of your post was a little unsettling to me as I read your post. I sincerely hope that you have found a divorce recovery program and a loving congregation. If not, then PM me.

RESUME CURRENT TOPIC

 

[Abiyah]

I find CCM, as it has been presented in my area, to
be fairly positive; however, there are certain times
when I do not tune in, and also, I have become
quite bored with it.

As far as presentation and when to listen to the
statioon here, they usually give us the best of what
is out there, so the music is good, and the words
are usually good. However, on Friday nights, the
music is Awful, and I cannot understand the
words!!

Regarding being bored, they repeat the same
songs over and over and over. They cannot seem
to understand that variety is necessary. If there
is not enough good newer music to create variety,
mix in some of the good older stuff! Give us some
Keith Green, Russ Taff, Imperials! We will not fall
apart!

Advice to radio stations: No song should be heard
twice on the same day, and no song should be
played during the same hour in any two days in
succession. This is the day of computers, for
good night! Set up a program for song selection
that will prevent this from happening! And mix
some of that old music in so that we won't be so
bored -- Please!

 

[Dale McNamee]

Hello Everyone!
Here's an interesting story on CCM from the Washington Times that should add to the discussion.

http://www.washtimes.com/culture/20030813-093528-9573r.htm

In Christ,
Dale

 

[yod]

Great article, Dale. And I'm bored by CCM on the radio these days, too, Abiyah


baptist in richmond....thank you so much for your concern. I can see that it's all about helping people with you. The Lord has done amazing things since that time, though. I'm happier than I ever thought possible and this life of faith just keeps getting greater...and with greater challenges, too.

It is not unusual, though, for people to link the "rock" style of music to moral issues (the old "sex, drugs and rock-and-roll" syndrome).

So the issue of behavior of the listener and music is still valid.

The only reason I mentioned it was to gauge where I stopped thinking CCM was evil. This was a time where I found ministry value in music I had formerly despised.

there are things about the overall industry that disturb me but that is different than saying that the "music" is evil.

No matter what style of music one likes, we could go back into time and find where a previous generation thought it was "worldy music"

All music is a form of communication. To make a blanket statement rejecting anything about CCM
is either;

1. rejecting what they are communicating
2. rejecting the method of communication
3. both

From what I can tell, it looks like Bob doesn't like the method and Enda chooses option #3. Is that correct?

Would it be possible to separate songs from the industry itself? What about the songwriters?

 

[yod]

Let me talk about the thing that disturbs me most in CCM.


Marketing and promotion!

On this, I'm sure we will all agree. The hype it takes to get attention and sell music to a large demographic of people (a "hit") is in stark contrast to the humility of Jesus.

He went around doing good and asking people not to tell anyone. Marketing and Promotion wants you to see the face of the latest/greatest singer who hasn't really done a darn thing yet.

Marketing and Promotion in CCM puffs up young "stars" as being super-spiritual beings that can teach us something?

They are signing children these days because of the youth "image" (and we know what God says about images!). How can most of them have any maturity when they haven't even graduated high school yet?

Marketing and Promotion makes ordinary people who might have a talent for singing into "stars"
And many of these "stars" actually believe the hype written about them.

Marketing and Promotion is in the business of selling a product and the promotion of Jesus is not in their priorities for the most part.


But the flip side is this:

Why would that be any different than a christian who owns a roofing company making commercials about how great of a job they do at their particular craft?

As I can see it, the only difference is that the CCM artist is "owned" by the company and has very little say in how they are promoted unlike the owner of a roofing business.

And the Record label is selling a person as much as a product and therefore must make this artist appealing....even if there is an artificial element to it.

Somewhere there must be a balance. Any ideas?

 

[ScottEmerson]

I had a conversation with Voddie Bauchum (if anyone hasn't heard of him, he is a gifted preacher who speaks to young people and churches all over the US!) and he told me about a friend of his who had one of the best voices he had ever heard. He was a black gospel singer who could not get signed by a major label because he was overweight and, by man's standards, unattractive.

At that point, I really had to re-examine the CCM industry. Has anyone else ever noticed how "pretty" many of the CCM singers are? Anyone noticed that there aren't many "unattractive" singers there are in the contemporary genre?

That's one thing that bothers me right there.

 

[Mike McK]

Originally posted by ScottEmerson:
I had a conversation with Voddie Bauchum (if anyone hasn't heard of him, he is a gifted preacher who speaks to young people and churches all over the US!) and he told me about a friend of his who had one of the best voices he had ever heard. He was a black gospel singer who could not get signed by a major label because he was overweight and, by man's standards, unattractive.

At that point, I really had to re-examine the CCM industry. Has anyone else ever noticed how "pretty" many of the CCM singers are? Anyone noticed that there aren't many "unattractive" singers there are in the contemporary genre?

That's one thing that bothers me right there.

Yes.

This is a drum I've been beating for a long time. It's about the triumph of style over substance.

You're absolutely right that there are no old, fat or ugly CCM artists currently being pushed by Cashville.

I think the closest we can come to one is Bob Carlisle, 350 lb former lead singer of the Allies.

He got a little backing but one wonders what reception he would have gotten if not for his huge hit (annoying though it was), "Butterfly Kisses".

Jerome Olds is another. He had a minor hit with "His Love Flows" and, despite writing some incredible music, couldn't get arrested in Christian music.

I've said it before and it bears repeating: the best thing that could happen to Christian music would be a Christian version of the "Great Austin Rebellion".

 

[yod]

I once had a Nashville record label owner tell me that I was too old and overweight to be in the music business....so I changed the name of my band to "Big Methuselah".

 

[Mike McK]

Originally posted by yod:
I once had a Nashville record label owner tell me that I was too old and overweight to be in the music business....so I changed the name of my band to "Big Methuselah".

Good name.

You guys all know that I like Jimmy Buffett's music.

Here's a great example of sucess outside of the mainstream.

He's short. He's bald. He's 55 years old. He's a little pudgy. Doesn't have a great voice. Average guitar player at best.

His record company started giving him a hard time and badgered him into making two records he didn't want to make and that he now admits were mistakes.

He dropped his label and started his own, as well as his own radio station to play his music and the music of other artists who were in the same boat.

The result is that he's never been more popular. We went to see him a couple of weeks ago and he sold out thirty thousand seats in less than a half hour.

Another good example is Radney Foster.

Radney is a young, good looking singer who could make it very easily in Cashville. In fact, he has as part of the duo, Foster and Lloyd.

When the music industry wouldn't let him make music on his terms, he split.

He gave up the industry clout but not the popularity or creativity.

I'd invite anyone who doesn't believe that older, unconventional artists can be popular to examine the popularity of Johnny Bush, Don Walser and Dr. Ralph Stanley.

 

[yod]

I'd invite anyone who doesn't believe that older, unconventional artists can be popular to examine the popularity of Johnny Bush, Don Walser and Dr. Ralph Stanley.

the problem is...where would someone hear them to find out whether they liked em or not?

 

[Mike McK]

Originally posted by yod:
the problem is...where would someone hear them to find out whether they liked em or not?

That's part of my point. Because of the heavy handed, dictatorial nature of what's going on in Nashville, an underground has sprung up.

There are pirate radio stations, internet radio stations, local music clubs, underground magazines, etc.

I remember just before it closed, George Jones sold out the Valley Forge Music Fair. I had become friends with one of the DJ's on the local "country" station and he introduced me to another of the on air folks there named Gina something or other. As Gina and I talked during the intermission, I couldn't help but comment on the irony of the banners saying that WXTU was proudly sponsering the sow, yet they wouldn't play his music on their station at gunpoint.

She told me that the reason they didn't play his music was because he had fallen out of fashion.

I pointed out that that evening's show had sold out and that the majority of those attending were under 40, yuppie type people. In other words, 'XTU's demographic.

She couldn't account for the fact that he had sold 10,000 seats while many artists on their current playlist couldn't sell that place out if they're lives depended on it, except to say that no one wanted to hear itas if the people there had all been rounded up at gunpoint and bussed in against their will.

 

[yod]

and this is why christian labels sign youngsters...

Only youngsters are buying the records they put out.

I guarantee that if all the millions of Baptists went out and bought YOUR record, you would have labels lining up at your door in the morning.

 

[Mike McK]

Originally posted by yod:
and this is why christian labels sign youngsters...

Only youngsters are buying the records they put out.

It's a chicken and the egg kind of thing.

There's nothing for adults to buy so adults don't buy records. Record companies don't put out anything for adults because adults aren't buyingthe records. And so on and so on...

I guarantee that if all the millions of Baptists went out and bought YOUR record, you would have labels lining up at your door in the morning. [/QB]

True enough but this is what I mean when I say that Christian music needs to look to Austin as an example.

There are smaller labels there who cater to smaller audiences: Bloodshot, Watermelon, HepCat, Texas World Record, etc...

 

[yod]

I'm gonna tell you a secret. Please don't tell Enda or Aaron because they will surely hate me.

I'm on a record label...a christian record label at that! Ya'll might call me CCM but CCM does not.

My label is distributed by the same company that does Bob Carlisle...because he owns a big part of it. He got dropped because his last record was such a failure.


It's a niche label I'm on...we do messianic worship. (boy am I asking for it now!)

In other words, they cater to a specific audience. I was 42 when they signed me last year. I'm fat and ugly...go figure.



The point is that there are still SOME labels out there who are looking for ministry minded musicians. It's a huge risk to sign anyone because of the money it takes to break a new artist. The big companies can spend upwards of a million bucks promoting a new band!

This is another reason why they are signing them young. It might take 5 years to see a return on their investment and another 5 years to see a profit.

I'll be 53 in 10 years...think your kids will by any geriatrics records?