Thinking of the Non-Logical Genre

[Dustin]

if God made certain people for the sole purpose of sending them to hell - then there is no choice.

if there is no choice - then we are robots and 'accountability for what we do' is only an illusion.

it's not logical. that's what i'm saying.
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the word "all" in that verse - is the same greek word used in matthew for "go out into ALL the world and preach the gospel to ALL nations")

so in 2peter - his audience may be infront of christians - but the 'all' is addressed all people of the world.

EDIT: haha. just read what you wrote Bob. didn't read the 'future calvanism' thing... don't care so much for calvanistic or arminiansims - whatever you call it. lol. i basically summed what you said in the first post on this page i think...

Your conclusion is fair enough, and I'm more than willing to help you understand election as much as the Lord wills.

Also, Greek is a lot like English in that one word can have 5 or 6 or so meanings. The meaning of the word has a lot to do with the context of the words around it, and in the grammatical structure, which I'm not at all qualified to teach. I don't know any Greek but I know that much at least. So, keep that in mind before you make assumptions like that.


Soli Deo Gloria,
Dustin

 

[BobRyan]

Bob asks -
Why is that? The OP is about the fallacy in logic that says God arbitrarily creates some for hell -- not caring for them, not sparing them -- and then tries to distance himself from "blame" for such arbitrary selection. Selecting some for hell and some for heaven.




My previous post simply REMOVES the luxury of heartless disconcern for the lost that such a view "requires". It is IN that OP context - but it highlights "concen for the lost" by the focus on a case where "those made for destruction" happen to be members of one's own family. The luxury of heartless disconcern is eliminated in that case. Simply referring to your own child as "one created for hell" is totally opposed to reason AND to scripture. To reason because even the simplest mind can see that such a path is opposed to the path of "love" and to scripture because God clearly states "I am not partial" Rom 2:11 and "God so love the WORLD" and "God is not willing for ANY to Perish" etc.

Why start a new thread when it is getting down to the hard core of the point?

Because the doctrine of election in it's real and biblical sense has very little to do with what your posting about it.

My post simply illustrates the problem highlighted in the OP on the side of the Arminian POV being expressed there. How is it "off topic" to illustrate the same Arminian argument in the OP??

I'd like to look at it and define it so it will not be subject to "future scenerios"

The concepts of Calvinism make certain predictions as to the concepts of the Arminian view.

We already agree that "not everybody is saved"
We already agree that saints will KNOW people in hell.

Moving on with the obvious - the scenario predicted is incredibly apparent to the objective reader.

My post "relies upon the teaching of Calvinism" to make it's case. Each of the salient points in the illustration are backed up by quotes from Calvinists on this very board. (Though I did not include those quotes in the summary example to save space and time). The point is that the Calvinist principles that are being highlighted (such as the one JohnP illustrated in the Post) are in fact REAL positions already taken on this very board.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

gekko:

"if God made certain people for the sole purpose of sending them to hell - then there is no choice."

This is not a matter of 'logic'. It's a matter of fact or presumption. You assume wrongly, then deduce wrongly from your own wrong assumption. That is not 'logic'; it's confusion.

Nowhere does anyone read where God "made certain people for the sole purpose of sending them to hell".

On the contrary, we read that God made man for to be in His own image: what holy purpose! THAT, presupposes, free will! Nothing else could!

But what do we find? That this perfect creature, cose to choose against God's purpose with him and for him, because he chose to disobey rather than to obey. Now that, isn't 'logic'; that, is sin! Sin destroys all logic because it destroys all purpose. Death and logic are mutually exclusive. Where death reigns, there is only a will in utter bondage. That will cannot ever, choose for God's holy purpose, because it had before rejected it unto eternal consequence.

They only way out is for God, and for Him to create a new heart and a fixed determination. David prayed for no less, and was able to pray for no less, because the mercies of David had been shown to him before.

 

[gekko]

gerhard... i agree with you.
next time before you go trying to speak against what i've said... read the original post. it helps.
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Also, Greek is a lot like English in that one word can have 5 or 6 or so meanings. The meaning of the word has a lot to do with the context of the words around it, and in the grammatical structure, which I'm not at all qualified to teach. I don't know any Greek but I know that much at least.

still a very very weak argument dustin.

 

[BobRyan]

Actually GE argues for a slight variation on "God created some to burn in hell".

GE argues that while God created all to live in sinnless harmony - once mankind fell then all were destined for hell. Now only those whom God "selects" out in a somewhat partial - arbitrary manner - will be saved and the rest are not "created for hell" they are simply born "on their own and left to go to hell on their own".

But that begs the question - do the fallen humans have power over life to bring new people into the world apart from God's Creative act in every birth? Or is that very act of pro-creation (even of a sinful human) something that God must take part in - as creator - creating life?

If so - to what purpose does he create those sinful infants?

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Dustin]

gerhard... i agree with you.
next time before you go trying to speak against what i've said... read the original post. it helps.
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still a very very weak argument dustin.

It's a very valid argument.


Consider the Watchtower Society, they carry Greek interliniers to try to prove that the doctrine of the Trinity is false and that Christ was not God Himself, and that the Holy Spirit is not God Himself, and to promote a pure works salvation doctrine.


I've also seen Oneness Pentecostals going to Greek to say that the Trinity is a pagan doctrine, and not orthodox.

People twist the Greek in all sorts of ways to suit thier agendas.


It's a point very well worth noting and checking out.

Isolating one word in the Greek then comparing it to another passage where the same word is used doesn't explain the context around it. That in itself it a pretty weak argument.

Read the passage in light of what Peter has already written.

Here's the ASV, one of the stricter word for word translations.

2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some count slackness; but is longsuffering to you-ward, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Longsuffering towards you-ward. Who? His audience, the churches. Not wishing that any should perish. Any of who? That all should come to repentance. All of who?

In light of what Peter already wrote, where can you assume that he is speaking universally of every man woman and child on the earth?

Ive used the KJV, the NIV, and the ASV to prove my point. I honestly don't know how much clearer it can be.

I'm not trying to argue for the sake of arguing, or serving some agenda, I'm just going with what the text says. Considering that this text has zip to do with the doctrine of election, you're better off finding another text to argue.

Soli Deo Gloria,
Dustin

 

[Dustin]

Actually GE argues for a slight variation on "God created some to burn in hell".

But not forever, right Bob?

 

[gekko]

i see what you're sayin now. that makes more sense.
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in the end. i believe God gave us a choice. God doesn't make our choices for us. God leads us to salvation. and we as followers of Christ - are to go out into all the world and preach the Gospel.

God bless.

 

[Dustin]

i see what you're sayin now. that makes more sense.
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in the end. i believe God gave us a choice. God doesn't make our choices for us. God leads us to salvation. and we as followers of Christ - are to go out into all the world and preach the Gospel.

God bless.

I'm thankful to God that you at least understand my position a little better. Think of it as iron sharpening iron, my brother. May God bless your study of the Word, and prosper you as He sees fit.

I'm not going nitpick your conclusion, in fact I wholeheartedly agree with the last bit. I believe that we as believers are charged to proclaim the Gospel to every creature in all of the world and that is plainly taught in Scripture.


Soli Deo Gloria,
Dustin

 

[BobRyan]

But not forever, right Bob?

Actually - I don't remember what GE's view is on that sir.


I remember Andre's though!

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

My glasses makes things worse, so I'll first enlarge the print:

Actually GE argues for a slight variation on "God created some to burn in hell".

GE argues that while God created all to live in sinnless harmony - once mankind fell then all were destined for hell. Now only those whom God "selects" out in a somewhat partial - arbitrary manner - will be saved and the rest are not "created for hell" they are simply born "on their own and left to go to hell on their own".

But that begs the question - do the fallen humans have power over life to bring new people into the world apart from God's Creative act in every birth? Or is that very act of pro-creation (even of a sinful human) something that God must take part in - as creator - creating life?

If so - to what purpose does he create those sinful infants?

In Christ,

Bob

GE:

You've got it wrong again BR -- then make up your own version of what I would believe.

I argue that while God created all to live in sinnless harmony - but once mankind fell then all were destined for hell -- exactly as by the predetermening will and justice of God -- nothing "partial" or "arbitrary" about it.

Now only those whom God "selects" out according to His own eternal will, will be saved. The rest (none of whom ever was "created for hell") -- THEY, by their own doing (who else's?) are, by the will of God and according to His holy justice, DESTINED to go to hell.

Does that 'beg the question? Or do fallen humans have power over life or death? God is Creator, but also Judge. He is also Saviour -- hence the salvation of some namely of His Elect.