standingfirminChrist
New Member
Continue to believe your lies, and I choose to believe God's Word. His Son died on the cross for all of mankind that all of mankind might come to Him.
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Those who have not heard the Gospel
- Thread starter Born_in_Crewe
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BobRyan
Well-Known Member
hillclimber1 said:
NT and the New Covenant
Hebrews tells us that this is the one covenant with forgiveness of sins and salvation.
Heb 8:
7for if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion sought for a second.
8 for finding fault with them, he says, “behold, days are coming, says the lord, when I will effect a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah; ...
10 “for this is the covenant that I will make with the house of israel after those days, says the lord: I will put My laws into their minds, and I will write them on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
11 “and they shall not teach everyone his fellow citizen, and everyone his brother, saying, ‘know the lord,’ for all will know me, from the least to the greatest of them.
12 “for I will be merciful to their iniquities, and I will remember their sins no more.”
2Cor 3 WE show are saved are under the New Covenant
point 1 again Paul makes the point of telling us in 2cor3 that the subject is the contrast between the use of the law in the old covenant and the new - notice that both the old and new covenant are the subjects of 2cor3.
Vs 6 "who also made us adequate as servants of a new covenant"
vs 14 "until this very day at the reading of the old covenant the same veil remains unlifted because it is removed in Christ. But to this day whenever moses is read, a veil lies over their heart. But whenever a man turns to the lord the veil is taken away"
(notice it does not say whenever they stop reading moses the veil is taken way - rather when they turn to the lord (the one true god) they can read moses with the veil taken away.) This conrast of outward focus in the old covenant and inward in the new covenant is amplified in these words regarding the law
"you are a letter of Christ cared for by us written not with ink, but wih the spirit of the living god, not on tablets of stone (the law of the old covenant - 10 commandments) but on tablets of the human heart" 2cor 3:3 that which is written outwardly on "tablets of stone" in the old covenant (God's law) is written inwardly "on tablets of the human heart" under the new covenant.
Heb 12
22</SPAN>But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to myriads of angels,
23to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the Judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect,
24and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood, which speaks better than the blood of Abel.
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Heb 8
8 For finding fault with them, He says, "" BEHOLD, DAYS ARE COMING, SAYS THE LORD, WHEN I WILL EFFECT A NEW COVENANT WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND WITH THE HOUSE OF JUDAH;
…
10 “for this is the covenant that I will make with the house of israel after those days, says the lord: I will put My laws into their minds, and I will write them on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
11 “and they shall not teach everyone his fellow citizen, and everyone his brother, saying, ‘know the lord,’ for all will know me, from the least to the greatest of them.
12 “for I will be merciful to their iniquities, and I will remember their sins no more.”
Rom 2
11 For there is no partiality with God.
12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law;
13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.
14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves,
15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them,
16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.
22 You who say that one should not commit adultery, do you commit adultery? You who abhor idols, do you rob temples?
23 You who boast in the Law, through your breaking the Law, do you dishonor God?
24 For "THE NAME OF GOD IS BLASPHEMED AMONG THE GENTILES BECAUSE OF YOU,"
25 For indeed circumcision is of value if you practice the Law; but if you are a transgressor of the Law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision.
26 So [b]if the uncircumcised man keeps the requirements of the Law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision?[/b]
27 And he who is physically uncircumcised, if he keeps the Law, will he not judge you who though having the letter of the Law and circumcision are a transgressor of the Law?
28 For [b]he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh[/b].
29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter[/b]; and his praise is not from men, but from God.
James 2
8 If, however, you are fulfilling the royal law according to the Scripture, "YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF," you are doing well.
9 But if you show partiality, you are committing sin and are convicted by the law as transgressors.
10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all.
11 For He who said, "DO NOT COMMIT ADULTERY," also said, "DO NOT COMMIT MURDER." Now if you do not commit adultery, but do commit murder, you have become a transgressor of the law.
12 So speak and so act as those who are to be judged by the law of liberty.
8 For finding fault with them, He says, "" BEHOLD, DAYS ARE COMING, SAYS THE LORD, WHEN I WILL EFFECT A NEW COVENANT WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND WITH THE HOUSE OF JUDAH;
…
10 “for this is the covenant that I will make with the house of israel after those days, says the lord: I will put My laws into their minds, and I will write them on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
11 “and they shall not teach everyone his fellow citizen, and everyone his brother, saying, ‘know the lord,’ for all will know me, from the least to the greatest of them.
12 “for I will be merciful to their iniquities, and I will remember their sins no more.”
Rom 2
11 For there is no partiality with God.
12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law;
13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.
14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves,
15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them,
16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.
22 You who say that one should not commit adultery, do you commit adultery? You who abhor idols, do you rob temples?
23 You who boast in the Law, through your breaking the Law, do you dishonor God?
24 For "THE NAME OF GOD IS BLASPHEMED AMONG THE GENTILES BECAUSE OF YOU,"
25 For indeed circumcision is of value if you practice the Law; but if you are a transgressor of the Law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision.
26 So [b]if the uncircumcised man keeps the requirements of the Law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision?[/b]
27 And he who is physically uncircumcised, if he keeps the Law, will he not judge you who though having the letter of the Law and circumcision are a transgressor of the Law?
28 For [b]he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh[/b].
29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter[/b]; and his praise is not from men, but from God.
James 2
8 If, however, you are fulfilling the royal law according to the Scripture, "YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF," you are doing well.
9 But if you show partiality, you are committing sin and are convicted by the law as transgressors.
10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all.
11 For He who said, "DO NOT COMMIT ADULTERY," also said, "DO NOT COMMIT MURDER." Now if you do not commit adultery, but do commit murder, you have become a transgressor of the law.
12 So speak and so act as those who are to be judged by the law of liberty.
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God is no respector of persons in that He gives preferential treatment to some because they are intrinsically meritorious . He has created all beings , He is not swayed to favor one over another because of any superiority that one person has versus another . But , indeed , there are those He has chosen in counterdistinction to those He has chosen to harden .
The Lord is not willing [ meaning He will not allow it to happen ] that any [ of His elect ones ] perish , but that all [ each and every member of this group ] shall come to repentance [ and of course He gives repentance to them as He also grants them belief ] .
" For God loved the world in this way : He gave His One and Only Son , so that everyone who believes in Him will not perish but have eternal life ." ( HCSB ) . I have no problem with this verse , though for your weak arguments to really stick I am charged with twisting the meaning . The Lord gives eternal life to everyone who believes in Him . He does not give said eternal life to those who do not ( as 3:18 brings out ) .
Whosoever [ those He so determines ] will come after me ...
Whosoever [ all those He has determined ] will let Him ..
I have never said , nor have I implied that Calvinists are the only ones who are in the camp of the Elect . And , several times I have explicitly denied that foolish assertion on the BB . The Elect , Saints , Church , Bride of Christ , et cetera are composed of all true Christians of various stripes -- both Calvinists and non-Cals . It's not pharisaical or prideful to say with joy that one is Elect . " Therefore , my brothers and sisters , make every effort to confirm your calling and election ." ( 2 Peter 1:10 TNIV ) .
You have convenienly ignored a number of verses I posted which do not conform to your particular views . I wish you would address them .
The Lord is not willing [ meaning He will not allow it to happen ] that any [ of His elect ones ] perish , but that all [ each and every member of this group ] shall come to repentance [ and of course He gives repentance to them as He also grants them belief ] .
" For God loved the world in this way : He gave His One and Only Son , so that everyone who believes in Him will not perish but have eternal life ." ( HCSB ) . I have no problem with this verse , though for your weak arguments to really stick I am charged with twisting the meaning . The Lord gives eternal life to everyone who believes in Him . He does not give said eternal life to those who do not ( as 3:18 brings out ) .
Whosoever [ those He so determines ] will come after me ...
Whosoever [ all those He has determined ] will let Him ..
I have never said , nor have I implied that Calvinists are the only ones who are in the camp of the Elect . And , several times I have explicitly denied that foolish assertion on the BB . The Elect , Saints , Church , Bride of Christ , et cetera are composed of all true Christians of various stripes -- both Calvinists and non-Cals . It's not pharisaical or prideful to say with joy that one is Elect . " Therefore , my brothers and sisters , make every effort to confirm your calling and election ." ( 2 Peter 1:10 TNIV ) .
You have convenienly ignored a number of verses I posted which do not conform to your particular views . I wish you would address them .
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
"Whosoever WILL" is NOT the way to say "I am going to arbitrarily select a small group as I WILL".
As much as Calvinism tries to spin that around AS IF the way to make Calvinist statements is to use ARMINIAN terms -- they have never been able to pass that slight of hand off -
When Calvinists read "God so LOVED the WORLD" they answer "No not really". But the Aminian says "yes REALLY!".
Huge difference there.
Then Calvinists try this trick " God so loved the arbitrarily selected FEW of Matt 7 that He gave His Son for JUST THEM not the Whole World -- THEN God called that so-loving the World to make it APPEAR that He is unbiased and accepting of ALL rather than just an arbitrarily select FEW -- the FEW that are placed by God on the NARROW road in Matt 7".
Perhaps it is time for a thread on Calvinism.
in Christ,
Bob
As much as Calvinism tries to spin that around AS IF the way to make Calvinist statements is to use ARMINIAN terms -- they have never been able to pass that slight of hand off -
When Calvinists read "God so LOVED the WORLD" they answer "No not really". But the Aminian says "yes REALLY!".
Huge difference there.
Then Calvinists try this trick " God so loved the arbitrarily selected FEW of Matt 7 that He gave His Son for JUST THEM not the Whole World -- THEN God called that so-loving the World to make it APPEAR that He is unbiased and accepting of ALL rather than just an arbitrarily select FEW -- the FEW that are placed by God on the NARROW road in Matt 7".
Perhaps it is time for a thread on Calvinism.
in Christ,
Bob
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standingfirminChrist
New Member
God nowhere said that it is the elect He was speaking of in the second epistle of Peter. You, Sir, are adding to the Word of God.
You are also removing from the Word of God in saying His Son did not come that all men might have life. When you deny the truth that Christ today, because of being lifted up on the cross is drawing all men in this world to Himself as He stated.
You Sir, are teaching another gospel than that which was once delivered to the saints.
You Sir are walking on very dangerous ground.
My witness of the truth to you is through as you obviously do not want to receive the truth..
You are also removing from the Word of God in saying His Son did not come that all men might have life. When you deny the truth that Christ today, because of being lifted up on the cross is drawing all men in this world to Himself as He stated.
You Sir, are teaching another gospel than that which was once delivered to the saints.
You Sir are walking on very dangerous ground.
My witness of the truth to you is through as you obviously do not want to receive the truth..
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standingfirminChrist said:
Okay , you deny the testimony of 2 Peter 1:10 because you don't like it . Mister , all the Epistles are addressed to believers = Elect . Part of 2 Peter 1:1 says : "To those who through the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ have received a faith as precious as ours ." ( TNIV ) Of course Peter is addressing the Elect . It's just like he wrote in his first Epistle ... "To God's elect , exiles scattered throughout the providences of ... " You can't win this , I am quoting the Word of God and you are not even familiar with it for you to make your silly allegations .
Get off your high horse .
God did not give His One and Only Son, He gave His Only Begotten Son. Those Christ died for were not just His children scattered around the earth. He died for all mankind.Rippon said:
Rippon, you and other Calvinists like to make God a "puppeteer". Your picture of God is One Who creates some for the sole purpose of going to hell and others for the purpose of going to heaven, making Him a respecter of persons. This is another gospel.
Galatians 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
Galatians 1:9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
Your Calvinist doctrine has God either as a "puppeteer" or One Who bows to your whim, saying that His blood is not sufficient for the whole world.
God does have the right to do what He wants with ANY of His creation. ALL of His creation was for His own pleasure. However, "When we were without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly." (Romans 5:6) Notice that Paul used the word ungodly and not the word us. All who have not the Son are ungodly; every man, woman, and child. CHRIST DIED FOR THE UNGODLY...it can't be any clearer than this.
All who believe not are condemned already.
What is wrong with that? What is wrong with that it makes God a puppeteer and life (mankind) a mere game in His hands. God is not like that. His mercy extends to "whosoever will". Whosoever does not mean SOME.
Who do you think you are, a mere human being to destroy the very purpose for why Christ died? What makes you so sure that YOU are one of the "elect"?
May God, just as He did to Saul on the road to Damascus, knock you off your high horse!
Linda , what does the word "begotten" suggest to you ? What to you think it means to the average reader ? There is no sense of generation here . It means unique-- one-of-kind . So John 1:14 , 1:18 and 3:18 translate it that way in some of the newer and better Bible versions .
I don't have the time , presently to deal with all your contentions . But I will cite some verses which indeed do refer to the children scattered abroad the earth .
John 11:51 c-52 : Jesus would die for the Jewish nation , and not only for that nation but also for the scattered children of God , to bring them together and make them one .
Revelation 5:9c : and with your blood you purchased for God members of every tribe and language and people and nation .
Revelation 7:9 a : After this I looked , and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count , from every nation , tribe , people and language
Revelation 14:4b : They were purchased from among the human race
So , you see , that the children of God also known as the Elect/Saints/Church/Bride and so forth are indeed scattered throughout the world .They are FROM AMONG all people groups -- but not all people head-for-head . Only they were purchased = redeemed . The rest of the world God allows to go their own way . And that way is to perdition .
Christ did not die for those He did not come to save . He died for only those whose names are inscribed in the Lamb's Book of Life . They , and they only , are glory-bound . The Lord did not die for the reprobate . IOW , He did not do His cross-work for those who go to Hell . He is not the Advocate , Mediator or Savior for those who will continually be under His wrath .
I don't have the time , presently to deal with all your contentions . But I will cite some verses which indeed do refer to the children scattered abroad the earth .
John 11:51 c-52 : Jesus would die for the Jewish nation , and not only for that nation but also for the scattered children of God , to bring them together and make them one .
Revelation 5:9c : and with your blood you purchased for God members of every tribe and language and people and nation .
Revelation 7:9 a : After this I looked , and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count , from every nation , tribe , people and language
Revelation 14:4b : They were purchased from among the human race
So , you see , that the children of God also known as the Elect/Saints/Church/Bride and so forth are indeed scattered throughout the world .They are FROM AMONG all people groups -- but not all people head-for-head . Only they were purchased = redeemed . The rest of the world God allows to go their own way . And that way is to perdition .
Christ did not die for those He did not come to save . He died for only those whose names are inscribed in the Lamb's Book of Life . They , and they only , are glory-bound . The Lord did not die for the reprobate . IOW , He did not do His cross-work for those who go to Hell . He is not the Advocate , Mediator or Savior for those who will continually be under His wrath .
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
BobRyan said:
Rippon said:
God could choose to do anything -- He could choose "I so loved the arbitrarily select FEW that I sent my Son for JUST THEM to die for JUST them for I love JUST THEM".
No question God COULD have chosen to do that - after all HE is the one dying.
The problem with Calvinism is that scripture SHOWS us that He clearly DID NOT CHOOSE that path!
INSTEAD of Calvinism God chose to "SO Love the WORLD" yes "really"!
No way to save Calvinism's doctrine on "arbitrary selection" and "limited atonement" once the Bible is written.
And as it turns out - - it is already written.
But PRIOR to God STATING which direction He chose to go - you are right -- He could have chosen ANYthing -- even Calvinism.
Seems like a good point to start a thread on Calvinism.
in Christ,
Bob
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
BR:Seems like a good point to start a thread on Calvinism.
HP: Now is the time for a reality check concerning BR’s position. His position is no shining knight come to deliver us from the error of Calvinism. He simply trades one error for another. Let me illustrate.
In order for the position of BR, in relationship to God and justice to being seen as fair in his mind coming from the false position of original sin, BR has to manufacture a notion not only foreign to Scripture but at direct antipodes with it. He creates the notion that the gospel reaches all men equally with the good news. Subsequently, BR would have us to believe the message of salvation must be the same for all throughout Scripture, from the OT until the new, i.e., Furthermore his idea of love necessitates that equality of opportunity must be evident for love to be love. Mercy and love are synonymous in his scheme of things. If not, now is the time for BR to distinguish between the two clearly for all to see.
The following are questions which BR needs to address for the list. What, if any, is the distinction between mercy and love? Why does he take every Scripture that speaks of God loving the world, or that God desires to save the world and extrapolate that to be seen as God allows all the equal opportunity of hearing and responding to the gospel message when Scripture neither states nor implies that such is the case? If the gospel was presented the same to those in the OT as the NT, why does God say in Heb 10:9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.”? If there is only one covenant As BR seems to believe, why does Scripture say the following?
Heb 10:16 This is the covenant that I will make with them AFTER those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.” Why would not it be the same before as after if in fact there was only one covenant made to reconcile man to God?
I say that neither in Calvinism or the positions of BR will the truth be found.
HP: Now is the time for a reality check concerning BR’s position. His position is no shining knight come to deliver us from the error of Calvinism. He simply trades one error for another. Let me illustrate.
In order for the position of BR, in relationship to God and justice to being seen as fair in his mind coming from the false position of original sin, BR has to manufacture a notion not only foreign to Scripture but at direct antipodes with it. He creates the notion that the gospel reaches all men equally with the good news. Subsequently, BR would have us to believe the message of salvation must be the same for all throughout Scripture, from the OT until the new, i.e., Furthermore his idea of love necessitates that equality of opportunity must be evident for love to be love. Mercy and love are synonymous in his scheme of things. If not, now is the time for BR to distinguish between the two clearly for all to see.
The following are questions which BR needs to address for the list. What, if any, is the distinction between mercy and love? Why does he take every Scripture that speaks of God loving the world, or that God desires to save the world and extrapolate that to be seen as God allows all the equal opportunity of hearing and responding to the gospel message when Scripture neither states nor implies that such is the case? If the gospel was presented the same to those in the OT as the NT, why does God say in Heb 10:9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.”? If there is only one covenant As BR seems to believe, why does Scripture say the following?
Heb 10:16 This is the covenant that I will make with them AFTER those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.” Why would not it be the same before as after if in fact there was only one covenant made to reconcile man to God?
I say that neither in Calvinism or the positions of BR will the truth be found.
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Heavenly Pilgrim said:
I beg to differ.
My statements are that ALL are "bound by scripture and held accountable" such that ALL need a Savior.
Is this the part you object to?
My statement is that God so LOVED THE WORLD -- "yes really" -- not just an arbitrarily select "FEW".
You keep arguing for "the same detail in story telling" -- not sure where you make that idea up -- but you keep trying to resurrect it no matter what Scripture says to the contrary.
I never argue in favor of "equal detail in story telling" -- you keep trying to spin this around as if that was ever the point.
Gal 1:6-9 ONLY ONE Gospel
Gal 3:7 "The Gospel was preached TO ABRAHAM"
Heb 4:1 "The Gospel was preached to us JUST as it was to them also"
I never said "there is only one Covenant".
H.P this is not as hard as you are making it out to be.
in Christ,
Bob