Those who have not heard the Gospel

[webdog]

If one does not hear the Gospel , one still stands condened . None will accept the law written in their hearts "for their own conscience and thoughts either accuse them or tell them they are doing right." ( Romans 2:15 NLTse )

I think you are putting the cart before the horse. If one reject the basic things God has given them, why would the Gospel be presented to them beyond the fact there is a God...we have a conscience...and we desire to live forever? Who has not asked the question to themselves "what is the meaning of life" and "why am I here"? Scripture tells us if we seek Him, we will find Him. He has made that move so we can seek Him.

 

[BobRyan]

I agree with this work of the Holy Spirit for all "Convicting the WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgment" but when it comes to the New Covenant work of writing the Law on the heart - that seems to be the work done for the saved.

Heb 8
10 "" FOR THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD: I WILL PUT MY LAWS INTO THEIR MINDS, AND I WILL WRITE THEM ON THEIR HEARTS. AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD, AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE.
11 "" AND THEY SHALL NOT TEACH EVERYONE HIS FELLOW CITIZEN, AND EVERYONE HIS BROTHER, SAYING, "KNOW THE LORD,' FOR ALL WILL KNOW ME, FROM THE LEAST TO THE GREATEST OF THEM.
12 "" FOR I WILL BE MERCIFUL TO THEIR INIQUITIES, AND I WILL REMEMBER THEIR SINS NO MORE.''

Here we have the New Covenant of the NT - comprised of OT promises.

Jer 31:
33 ""But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days,'' declares the LORD, "" I will put My law within them and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.
34 ""They will not teach again, each man his neighbor and each man his brother, saying, "Know the LORD,' for they will all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them,'' declares the LORD, ""for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.''

And the OT promise - New Covenant Promise - to write God's Law on the heart and cause them to walk in His ways - meant a NEW HEART - as God's Word clearly shows.

Ezekiel
26 ""Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.
27 ""I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances.
28 ""You will live in the land that I gave to your forefathers; so you will be My people, and I will be your God.

The NT authors call this a "NEW CREATION". To turn away from rebellion and toware conformity with God's Law - having God's law written on the heart
is nothing short of "a new creation" with OLD THINGS passed away.

2Cor 5:17 Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come.


Rom 2:
28 nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh.
29 but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.

 

[BobRyan]

HP: I see this as avoiding the real question. The question is whether or not the light that Scripture states all receive encompasses the gospel message or not.

In John 1 "Christ is the light that coming into the world enlightens EVERY man".

In John 16 "The Holy Spirit convicts the WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgment".

In Romans 10 the issue of "salvation" via that message is explicitly dealt with EVEN when that messenger is nature.

In Romans 2:13-16 Paul shows that this EVEN includes the new Covenant work of the Holy Spirit writing the law upon the heart for those without access to scripture at all.

The question is not "how much story do they have" the question is "IS God able to work with them (within the ONE Gospel Gal 1:6-11) as He says and bring them to the New Covenant relationship seen in Romans 2 EVEN if they have no scripture"

The Romans 10 answer appears to be "yes".

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Pastor_Bob]

The question is whether or not the light that Scripture states all receive encompasses the gospel message or not.

I would say that it does. The light that is given is the message of a Creator, our accountability to that Creator, man's need of redemption, and the necessity of trusting the Redeemer.

On the issue of receiving more light, does this mean that one can respond favorably to the initial light one is given?

Absolutely.

Now in keeping with all the dead logs so many have painting floating down the stream, I am having a hard time understanding just how one can act favorably to the light when in fact they lack all abilities to do anything (according to many on this list) other than to sin and that continually.

You are comparing apples and oranges when you try to connect this topic to previous discussions. Those questions have been answered repeatedly.

 

[John of Japan]

Please show that the "law written in the heart" promise of the Heb 8 New Covenant is a reality for the lost - rather than just those saved saints that have entered into the New Covenant.

in Christ,

Bob

Sorry, I pass. I'm only on this thread because it's about missions. I don't have time for theological details not connected directly with the OP.

 

[John of Japan]

Here is an illustration of the fact that God will send missionaries to those who seek Him through natural revelation and the Holy Spirit's help. The following story comes from Cowboy Boots in Darkest Africa, by Evangelist Bill Rice, the younger half brother of John R., and founder of the Bill Rice Ranch, the first ministry to deaf people in history. Bill Rice took a trip to Africa way back in the early '50's. At one point he traveled with a missionary and a tribal translator to be the first ever to give the Gospel to a tribe of pygmies in the jungle. He wrote:

"One night as I was talking of the love of God and how He had sent Jesus to die for us, old Tarasi, the little old man in the monkey-skin cap who had been the very first Pygmy we had met, stood to his feet.

"'Bwana,' he said in his thin voice, 'I thought it must be something like that. Many times I have climbed the highest tree and have looked far into the sky, trying to see God. I felt sure He must be up there some place. And again and again I have called, God, are You there? Can you hear me? Do You see little old Tarasi? God, I am afraid—come and help Tarasi. But,' the odd old fellow continued, 'I never could hear Him answer me a word. I thought God surely must have some way of helping poor old Tarasi. I am glad to hear of Jesus and to know that He died me . . . I thought it must be something like that!'


"So old Tarasi was our first convert and his son, Gabani, was our second. Some two years later I was informed that a church had been established among this tribe of Pygmies. It hard for me to realize that some of these small, brown, most-naked jungle people were now testifying to other Pygmy tribes of the grace of God that brings salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ. In all the world there are only a few—perhaps five or six—Pygmy churches. I am grateful to God that I was privileged to be present the beginning of this one" (Cowboy boots in Darkest Africa, by Bill Rice, p. 140).

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Originally Posted by Heavenly Pilgrim
The question is whether or not the light that Scripture states all receive encompasses the gospel message or not.

Pastor Bob: I would say that it does. The light that is given is the message of a Creator, our accountability to that Creator, man's need of redemption, and the necessity of trusting the Redeemer.

HP: Now that you have said, what do the Scriptures say? Show me one passage where it claims that the gospel is granted to all men or that all men understand their need of redemption and the necessity of trusting in a Savior? Believe as you will but I for one believe that your position lacks complete verification from the Word of God and certainly has no validity in light of the testimony of thousands of missionaries who first brought the good news to so many tribes and languages across the globe.
God has ordained men to spread the good news. The gospel is not presented to man intuitively. Ro 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?” Does this Scripture allow the mind to conclude that all have been granted the message of salvation intuitively as you are suggesting?

Even a precursor reading of Scripture should clearly place before our eyes that before the cross and the arrival of the Apostle Paul and Barnabus on the scene that the gospel was limited to a great degree to Jews alone. Even Jesus Himself told his disciples not to go and give the message of salvation to the Gentiles at that time, but rather told them, “Mt 10:6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.” Again, Jesus made His message clear and to whom Him ministry of reconciliation was directed towards at that time. Mt 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.


From the OT to the NT the notion of the gospel being given to all intuitively is soundly refuted. In Romans we find that the Israelites alone were given the oracles of God. Ro 3:2 Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.

There was but one source of the truth of reconciliation, and apart from that source there was no hope. Joh 6:68 Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.” Of a truth, no man comes to the Father apart from Christ, and no one hears of Christ apart from the efforts and sacrifices of His followers either directly of indirectly.

Whatever it is that one has intuitively, it will never, in and of itself, offer one the gospel message and the hope of salvation.


Quote:
HP: On the issue of receiving more light, does this mean that one can respond favorably to the initial light one is given?

Pastor Bob: Absolutely.

HP: Then you are going to have to admit that the sinner who is granted some light possess the abilities to act in accordance to it. So much for a sinner lacking abilities.
Quote:
HP: Now in keeping with all the dead logs so many have painting floating down the stream, I am having a hard time understanding just how one can act favorably to the light when in fact they lack all abilities to do anything (according to many on this list) other than to sin and that continually.

Pastor Bob: You are comparing apples and oranges when you try to connect this topic to previous discussions. Those questions have been answered repeatedly.

HP: How is that like comparring apples to oranges? I am responding on this thread to remarks you made on this thread, not another. If it was pertinent for you to say what you did on this thread then it should be pertinent for me to question your direct statements on this thread.

Does man, as a sinner, have the abilities to respond favorably and in accordance to the light God gives him, or does he lack the abilities to do anything other than to sin and that continually? That is a fair question Pastor that in light of your most recent remarks.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

John of Japan: 'I never could hear Him answer me a word. I thought God surely must have some way of helping poor old Tarasi.’

HP: But we have BR and Pastor Bob who believe differently. They would have us believe there is no one that has not had the gospel presented to them. I honestly cannot see how anyone could stare at themselves in a mirror and claim that all have been granted the gospel message. Millions of missionaries across the globe I believe would tell a quite different story……………and Scripture also affirms a different story as well.

 

[Pastor_Bob]

Show me one passage where it claims that the gospel is granted to all men or that all men understand their need of redemption and the necessity of trusting in a Savior?

• Psalm 98:2 The LORD hath made known his salvation: his righteousness hath he openly shewed in the sight of the heathen.
• Isaiah 52:10 The LORD hath made bare his holy arm in the eyes of all the nations; and all the ends of the earth shall see the salvation of our God.
• Luke 3:6 And all flesh shall see the salvation of God.
• Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men

Does this Scripture allow the mind to conclude that all have been granted the message of salvation intuitively as you are suggesting?

Jesus is the Light that lights "every man" that comes into the world. What do you suggest that light is?

Then you are going to have to admit that the sinner who is granted some light possess the abilities to act in accordance to it.

I readily admit this.

Does man, as a sinner, have the abilities to respond favorably and in accordance to the light God gives him, or does he lack the abilities to do anything other than to sin and that continually?

Each sinner has the ability to either respond to or reject the light that he is given.

 

[Pastor_Bob]

I honestly cannot see how anyone could stare at themselves in a mirror and claim that all have been granted the gospel message.

For what it is worth - I've never stood in front of the mirror staring at myself trying to convince myself of biblical truth. :saint:

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Originally Posted by Heavenly Pilgrim
Show me one passage where it claims that the gospel is granted to all men or that all men understand their need of redemption and the necessity of trusting in a Savior?

• • Psalm 98:2 The LORD hath made known his salvation: his righteousness hath he openly shewed in the sight of the heathen.
  • Isaiah 52:10 The LORD hath made bare his holy arm in the eyes of all the nations; and all the ends of the earth shall see the salvation of our God.
  • Luke 3:6 And all flesh shall see the salvation of God.
  • Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men

HP: The first on the list Ps 98:2 is a compelling Scripture at first glance. A closer look may reveal another thought. Adam Clarke states it is ‘stated to be composed concerning the ‘Restoration of Israelites from Egypt: but is to be understood spiritually of the advent of the Messiah, and the vocation of the gentiles to the Christian faith.” Obviously in the latter context it was to be understood as ‘prophetically speaking,’ as something yet to come to pass. I cannot see how anyone could take this verse literally to say that all have received the gospel message intuitively or any other way.
As for Isaiah 52:10 it as well is not speaking directly as to individual salvation, but is speaking of the open way before all the heathen that they were able to see God’s hand on the Israelites. Just the same, do you just suppose there were some distant parts of he earth that did not know who the Israelites even were? This verse obviously cannot be made to support the notion that the ‘gospel message’ was granted to all.
As for Luke 3:6, this speaks of a future time and lends no support even remotely that all have been granted the gospel message.

As for Titus 2:11, this is the closest to a compelling passage so far that I have read that could in some sense lay credence to your position. Just the same, I would believe that the verse is not making any universal notation that all have been granted the message of salvation. Listen to Adam Clarke once again. “Now it cannot be said, except in a very refined and spiritual sense, that this gospel has appeared to all men; but it may be well said that it bringeth salvation to all men;”
I would be in agreement with Adam Clarke on this one. To make this verse walk on all four legs in support of the notion that all men have heard the gospel is simply not in keeping with wisdom as I see it.
Quote:
HP: Does this Scripture allow the mind to conclude that all have been granted the message of salvation intuitively as you are suggesting?

Pastor Bob: Jesus is the Light that lights "every man" that comes into the world. What do you suggest that light is?

HP: There is no truth that does not come from God. Because God indeed grants to all men some truth, that cannot be extrapolated into any theory that all have had the gospel presented to them.

Quote:
HP: Does man, as a sinner, have the abilities to respond favorably and in accordance to the light God gives him, or does he lack the abilities to do anything other than to sin and that continually?

Pastor Bob: Each sinner has the ability to either respond to or reject the light that he is given.

HP: I sincerely appreciate your direct responses to the questions. :thumbs:

Then would you also admit that one does not need any ‘special prevenient grace’ to respond to the light he is given or respond to any further light such as the revelation of the gospel message to ones heart? It is my position that without ability granted to every man to respond to the light he is granted, no responsibility or punishments or rewards could be just. In the case of the heathen, who I might believe have not received the gospel message, still yet they have the natural ability to obey the light of their conscience, IF they will. I believe that they will stand condemned for failure to live up to the light of their conscience, not for failure to obey a gospel which I believe some have not heard.

 

[John of Japan]

HP: But we have BR and Pastor Bob who believe differently. They would have us believe there is no one that has not had the gospel presented to them. I honestly cannot see how anyone could stare at themselves in a mirror and claim that all have been granted the gospel message. Millions of missionaries across the globe I believe would tell a quite different story……………and Scripture also affirms a different story as well.

If I understand your position correctly, I agree with you. It is one thing to say that every person in the world has light through natural revelation (sometimes called general revelation): looking at the stars, listening to his conscience, examining a flower, being amazed at a bombardier beetle. I believe that in that sense every person in the world has the opportunity to seek God. Alas, few do.

It is a far different thing to say that everyone in the world actually has the Gospel that Christ died for their sins, as proven by His burial, and rose again the third day, as proven by over 500 witnesses (1 Cor. 15:1-8). That is what the Bible specifically teaches the Gospel to be, and I am here to say both Scripturally and from personal experience that the heathen around the world do NOT know the Gospel of Christ.

We could give many Scriptures proving that not all have the Gospel, but surely one plain passage should be enough: Rom. 10:14-15 says, "How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!" So it is very clear that not all have heard the Gospel and that we believers are God's tool to spread the Gospel.

In my own personal experience I have often been the first to give the Gospel to a poor lost Japanese sinner who had no idea whatsoever who Jesus Christ is. And how can there be a knowledge of the Gospel if there is no knowledge of Christ? If there is salvation in any other name (Acts 4:12), or any other way to hear the Gospel other than through obedient Christians, than I have thrown away 26 of the best years of my life laboring here in Japan to give the Japanese the Gospel.

Now, what is the end of such people? They are headed for eternal Hell. There is no way around that. I've searched the Scriptures, wishing for another way for these poor people, and Hell is the only possible end for those who do not hear the Gospel and do not know Jesus Christ. But someone says that is unfair if they have never heard the Gospel. No it is not unfair. They can look at the stars and know there is a God, they can look at their own conscience and know that they are wicked sinners due to be judged. Romans 1:20 says it very clearly: "They are without excuse."

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

My vote is with John of Japan. :thumbs:

May God richly bless you in your service for the Lord, may your ministry be fruitful and may your tribe increase!

 

[Rippon]

If I understand your position correctly, I agree with you. It is one thing to say that every person in the world has light through natural revelation (sometimes called general revelation): looking at the stars, listening to his conscience, examining a flower, being amazed at a bombardier beetle. I believe that in that sense every person in the world has the opportunity to seek God. Alas, few do.

It is a far different thing to say that everyone in the world actually has the Gospel that Christ died for their sins, as proven by His burial, and rose again the third day, as proven by over 500 witnesses (1 Cor. 15:1-8). That is what the Bible specifically teaches the Gospel to be, and I am here to say both Scripturally and from personal experience that the heathen around the world do NOT know the Gospel of Christ.

We could give many Scriptures proving that not all have the Gospel, but surely one plain passage should be enough: Rom. 10:14-15 says, "How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!" So it is very clear that not all have heard the Gospel and that we believers are God's tool to spread the Gospel.

In my own personal experience I have often been the first to give the Gospel to a poor lost Japanese sinner who has no idea whatsoever who Jesus Christ is. And how can there be a knowledge of the Gospel if there is no knowledge of Christ? If there is salvation in any other name (Acts 4:12), or any other way to hear the Gospel other than through obedient Christians, than I have thrown away 26 of the best years of my life laboring here in Japan to give the Japanese the Gospel.

Now, what is the end of such people? They are headed for eternal Hell. There is no way around that. I've searched the Scriptures, wishing for another way for these poor people, and Hell is the only possible end for those who do not hear the Gospel and do not know Jesus Christ. But someone says that is unfair if they have never heard the Gospel. No it is not unfair. They can look at the stars and know there is a God, they can look at their own conscience and know that they are wicked sinners due to be judged. Romans 1:20 says it very clearly: "They are without excuse."

AMEN JoJ ! Well said .

 

[Amy.G]

AMEN JoJ ! Well said .

I learned that from JoJ way back when I first joined the BB. We had a long discussion about it. It was a hard lesson, but I got it.

Thanks John!

God bless you!

 

[John of Japan]

I learned that from JoJ way back when I first joined the BB. We had a long discussion about it. It was a hard lesson, but I got it.

Thanks John!

God bless you!

We grow or stagnate, amen Amy? :wavey:

 

[Amy.G]

We grow or stagnate, amen Amy? :wavey:

Amen! raying:

 

[BobRyan]

HP: But we have BR and Pastor Bob who believe differently. They would have us believe there is no one that has not had the gospel presented to them.

As I stated before - you make this about "The story" and some magic line that is drawn "know this much and then you can submit to God and be saved" that is beyond what someone can know who does not have scripture.

But I stated that this is not about "how much of the nativity story you know" according to Romans 1 and Romans 10. And Romans 2 makes it clear that those who know nothing of the details of the life of Christ are experiencing the New Birth work of the Holy Spirit - writing God's Law on the heart.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

This is where I point out that it is not so much "details about the nativity" that is being set as the dividing line - but what someone does with the light God gives even when biography notes about the life of Christ are not included.

In John 1 "Christ is the light that coming into the world enlightens EVERY man".

In John 16 "The Holy Spirit convicts the WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgment".

In Romans 10 the issue of "salvation" via that message is explicitly dealt with EVEN when that messenger is nature.

In Romans 2:13-16 Paul shows that this EVEN includes the new Covenant work of the Holy Spirit writing the law upon the heart for those without access to scripture at all.

The question is not "how much story do they have" the question is "IS God able to work with them (within the ONE Gospel Gal 1:6-11) as He says and bring them to the New Covenant relationship seen in Romans 2 EVEN if they have no scripture"

The Romans 10 answer appears to be "yes".

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Rom 10:
8 But what does it say? “THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, in your mouth and in your heart”—that is, the word of faith which we are preaching,
9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;
10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.
11 For the Scripture says, “WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED.”
12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him;

13 for “WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED.”
14 How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher?
15 How will they preach unless they are sent? Just as it is written, “HOW BEAUTIFUL ARE THE FEET OF THOSE WHO BRING GOOD NEWS OF GOOD THINGS!”
16 However, they did not all heed the good news; for Isaiah says, “LORD, WHO HAS BELIEVED OUR REPORT?” 17So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.
18 But I say, surely they have never heard, have they? Indeed they have;

(Ps 19 is quoted here)

“THEIR VOICE HAS GONE OUT INTO ALL THE EARTH,
AND THEIR WORDS TO THE ENDS OF THE WORLD.”

Ps 19 The full text is as follows

1 The heavens are telling of the glory of God;
And their expanse is declaring the work of His hands.
2 Day to day pours forth speech,
And night to night reveals knowledge.
3 There is no speech, nor are there words;
Their voice is not heard.
4 Their line has gone out through all the earth,
And their utterances to the end of the world.
In them He has placed a tent for the sun,

5 Which is as a bridegroom coming out of his chamber;
It rejoices as a strong man to run his course.
6 Its rising is from one end of the heavens,
And its circuit to the other end of them;
And there is nothing hidden from its heat.

Clearly Paul is appealing (AGAIN) to NATURE's voice in DECLARING the
truth of God - so that "they (the people - Jew and Gentile) DID HEAR" - fulfilling the
condition -- Vs 17So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.
18But I say, surely they have never heard, have they? Indeed they have;