Those who have not heard the Gospel

[Tom Butler]

Amen from me as well, John.

I have been pleasantly surprised so far. I fully expected John 1:9 ('...Jesus is the true light, which lighteth every man...") to be cited as an exampe that every person has had the light of the gospel, someway, somehow. And, that God HAD to get the gospel to everybody, so everybody would have a chance to accept Christ or reject Him.

In a previous thread on this subject, that argument was advanced as an article of faith, despite testimonies from missionaries like you.

So far, it has been suggested that everyone has had light, but not necessarily the gospel of Jesus Christ.

I warned early on that the universal gospel light argument was coming. So far, I've been wrong. Hope I stay wrong.

BTW, Bob Ryan is making an entirely different argument.

 

[John of Japan]

Salvation is not about facts, it is about a Person, our Lord Jesus Christ. Christ is the ultimate revelation of God (Heb. 1:2). If one has personally met the Lord Jesus and trusted Him and His shed blood for salvation, then he or she is saved. If one knows nothing about Christ, or knows the facts about Christ without having heart-faith, he or she is not saved.

So once again, the Gospel is necessary for people to be saved. The Gospel is that Christ (a Person) died for our sins (a divine action, not just a historical fact) and rose again (proving Him worthy and powerful).

Note that the resurrection is in the Gospel not just as a historical fact, but for a very good reason. No other faith has a resurrected Savior. Amida Buddhism requires faith in Amida, who is a metaphysical presence, not really human anymore. Islam requires one to verbally express confidence in Allah and Muhammed, but has no resurrected Lord. So the resurrection sets Christ far above all mere religionists.

In an ancestor worshipping society such as Japan, the resurrection takes on this importance in a very practical way. Many missionaries and believers forget this and leave the resurrection out of their Gospel witness. I once heard of a Japanese young lady who was told to believe in Christ but not told about the resurrection. She said, "Why should I worship another dead person?"

 

[BobRyan]

Notice what Paul says in response to those who claim "they have never heard"??

Rom 10:
8 But what does it say? “THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, in your mouth and in your heart”—that is, the word of faith which we are preaching,
9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;
10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.
11 For the Scripture says, “WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED.”
12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him;

13 for “WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED.”
14 How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher?
15 How will they preach unless they are sent? Just as it is written, “HOW BEAUTIFUL ARE THE FEET OF THOSE WHO BRING GOOD NEWS OF GOOD THINGS!”
16 However, they did not all heed the good news; for Isaiah says, “LORD, WHO HAS BELIEVED OUR REPORT?” 17So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.
18 But I say, surely they have never heard, have they? Indeed they have;

(Ps 19 is quoted here)

“THEIR VOICE HAS GONE OUT INTO ALL THE EARTH,
AND THEIR WORDS TO THE ENDS OF THE WORLD.”

Ps 19 The full text is as follows

1 The heavens are telling of the glory of God;
And their expanse is declaring the work of His hands.
2 Day to day pours forth speech,
And night to night reveals knowledge.
3 There is no speech, nor are there words;
Their voice is not heard.
4 Their line has gone out through all the earth,
And their utterances to the end of the world.
In them He has placed a tent for the sun,

5 Which is as a bridegroom coming out of his chamber;
It rejoices as a strong man to run his course.
6 Its rising is from one end of the heavens,
And its circuit to the other end of them;
And there is nothing hidden from its heat.

Clearly Paul is appealing (AGAIN) to NATURE's voice in DECLARING the
truth of God - so that "they (the people - Jew and Gentile) DID HEAR" - fulfilling the
condition -- Vs 17So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.
18But I say, surely they have never heard, have they? Indeed they have;

 

[John of Japan]

Amen from me as well, John.

I have been pleasantly surprised so far. I fully expected John 1:9 ('...Jesus is the true light, which lighteth every man...") to be cited as an exampe that every person has had the light of the gospel, someway, somehow. And, that God HAD to get the gospel to everybody, so everybody would have a chance to accept Christ or reject Him.

In a previous thread on this subject, that argument was advanced as an article of faith, despite testimonies from missionaries like you.

So far, it has been suggested that everyone has had light, but not necessarily the gospel of Jesus Christ.

I warned early on that the universal gospel light argument was coming. So far, I've been wrong. Hope I stay wrong.

BTW, Bob Ryan is making an entirely different argument.

The arguments so far are pretty fuzzy (no offense intended). :smilewinkgrin: I've found that very few people really think this issue through. I've been forced to do so, being a missionary.

Since Bob is an SDA advocate, his arguments are bound to be different. Maybe he'll clarify what he's saying in future posts.

 

[John of Japan]

Notice what Paul says in response to those who claim "they have never heard"??

And your point is? You have a habit of listing long sections or lists of verses with no explanation, then blaming us for not understanding your position by reading your mind. So please, elaborate clearly. Do you believe that the heathen actually need to know Jesus Christ to be saved, or can a Shintoist, for example, be saved through his Shinto faith? Or maybe you are trying to say that a person can be saved through natural revelation, and the ultimate revelation which is Jesus Christ is not needed? I can't figure it out, myself.

 

[Pastor_Bob]

John 1:6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

Can someone tell me who is excluded in this statement? The fact is, no one is left out. Every man, woman, boy, and girl that comes into this world is given light by God. Not all people respond the same to the light, but all people are given the light.

God is unmistakable in His Word that He doesn’t want anyone to die and go to hell, so He makes His truth very clear even from His creation according to Romans chapter 1. God says that those who do not respond to the light are without excuse.

No one will be able to stand before God and say, "But God, I didn’t know you!" God will say, "I gave you the light. Remember that night when you looked up at the stars and saw the galaxies and I spoke to you inside and told you there is a God, and that He made all of this? You chose to ignore the light and walk in darkness."

Rom 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

Paul is saying that these men, when they "knew God," that is, they were given an awareness of the existence of God, they did not glorify Him. They did not give Him the honor and worship due to Him. In other words, they did not respond to the light. They moved from the light into darkness, and professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

 

[John of Japan]

John 1:6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

Can someone tell me who is excluded in this statement? The fact is, no one is left out. Every man, woman, boy, and girl that comes into this world is given light by God. Not all people respond the same to the light, but all people are given the light.

God is unmistakable in His Word that He doesn’t want anyone to die and go to hell, so He makes His truth very clear even from His creation according to Romans chapter 1. God says that those who do not respond to the light are without excuse.

No one will be able to stand before God and say, "But God, I didn’t know you!" God will say, "I gave you the light. Remember that night when you looked up at the stars and saw the galaxies and I spoke to you inside and told you there is a God, and that He made all of this? You chose to ignore the light and walk in darkness."

Rom 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

Paul is saying that these men, when they "knew God," that is, they were given an awareness of the existence of God, they did not glorify Him. They did not give Him the honor and worship due to Him. In other words, they did not respond to the light. They moved from the light into darkness, and professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

Pastor Bob, forgive me, but I've not been quite sure where you are coming from here. (1) Are you saying that natural revelation includes the Gospel, so that someone can discern the existence of the Son of God and the knowledge of His sacrifice for us and His resurrection from nature? (2) Or are you just saying that anyone, anywhere in the world can know of God and their own sinfulness from nature and conscience. If it is (1), I disagree with my entire 26 years in Japan. If it is (2), I agree.

To be blunt, can a Shintoist be saved without ever hearing the Biblical Gospel of Christ, or is it necessary for a missionary like me to actually tell them the Gospel? I know you as a good pastor who loves missions, so I await your answer.

Concerning Jesus as the "true Light, which lighteth every man which cometh into the world," I offer the following. Every good thing in the world comes from Christ through Christians. I mean that!

Consider Japan for examples. Japan's very modern educational system was founded by missionaries and Japanese Christians. One famous Japanese Christian educator was the image on the 5000 yen bill for many years! The Japanese medical system was founded by missionaries. The first medical missionary to Japan, Hepburn, founded the first ever medical clinic in the country. Japanese farming on the island of Hokkaido where I live, the dairy belt of the entire country, was originally learned from Captain Janes, a Christian who inspired the "Sapporo Band," a group of young samurai Christians. The buildings on farms in Hokkaido look like they could be in Wisconsin! Japanese democracy and the Japanese constitution were instituted by General MacArthur, a Christian who read his Bible every day.

I could go on and on about this subject, both in Japan and other places: Carey in India opposing suttee, the burning alive of the widow on the funeral pyre of the husband; Livingstone in Africa opposing the slave trade, etc. Indeed, the proper treatment of women all over the globe depends on Christianity!

 

[BobRyan]

This is where I give BOTH the Words of PAUL AND my own comments where I note that Paul himself addresses this argument "they have never heard" and in answer brings in the example of nature itself - day to day pours forth speach --

Notice what Paul says in response to those who claim "they have never heard"??


Quote:
Originally Posted by BobRyan
Rom 10:
8 But what does it say? “THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, in your mouth and in your heart”—that is, the word of faith which we are preaching,
9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;
10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.
11 For the Scripture says, “WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED.”
12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him;

13 for “WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED.”
14 How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher?
15 How will they preach unless they are sent? Just as it is written, “HOW BEAUTIFUL ARE THE FEET OF THOSE WHO BRING GOOD NEWS OF GOOD THINGS!”
16 However, they did not all heed the good news; for Isaiah says, “LORD, WHO HAS BELIEVED OUR REPORT?”

17So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.
18 But I say, surely they have never heard, have they? Indeed they have;


(Ps 19 is quoted here)

“THEIR VOICE HAS GONE OUT INTO ALL THE EARTH,
AND THEIR WORDS TO THE ENDS OF THE WORLD.”

Ps 19 The full text is as follows

1 The heavens are telling of the glory of God;
And their expanse is declaring the work of His hands.
2 Day to day pours forth speech,
And night to night reveals knowledge.
3 There is no speech, nor are there words;
Their voice is not heard.
4 Their line has gone out through all the earth,
And their utterances to the end of the world.
In them He has placed a tent for the sun,

5 Which is as a bridegroom coming out of his chamber;
It rejoices as a strong man to run his course.
6 Its rising is from one end of the heavens,
And its circuit to the other end of them;
And there is nothing hidden from its heat.

Clearly Paul is appealing (AGAIN) to NATURE's voice in DECLARING the
truth of God - so that "they (the people - Jew and Gentile) DID HEAR" - fulfilling the
condition -- Vs 17So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.
18But I say, surely they have never heard, have they? Indeed they have;

John of Japan -
And your point is? You have a habit of listing long sections or lists of verses with no explanation, then blaming us for not understanding your position by reading your mind. So please, elaborate clearly. Do you believe that the heathen actually need to know Jesus Christ to be saved, or can a Shintoist, for example, be saved through his Shinto faith? Or maybe you are trying to say that a person can be saved through natural revelation, and the ultimate revelation which is Jesus Christ is not needed? I can't figure it out, myself.

1. Surely you "notice" that this is the context of our discussion --

13 for “WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED.”
14 How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher?


What better phrasing of the question being asked on this thread could possibly be imagined? Paul is speaking of the people of God (including the saints of Heb 11 some of whom had no scripture at all) those living long ages before Christ.


2. Paul then opens the door to the argument that those living long ages before the cross could not possibly have known the details about Christ that we know --

17So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.
18 But I say, surely they have never heard, have they? Indeed they have;

John -- is this the part where you have questions?

Is this where you want to know what Paul's answer is according to the text of Romans 10?

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

As Pastor Bob points out from John 1 and Romans 1 -- and as Paul states in Romans 10 - the "invisible attributes of God" are clearly seen in the lesson book of nature -- but the details about the biography of Jesus are not.

The point in Romans 2 is that it is the response to what God reveals - following the light He has given that results in bonding-partnership-fellowship through the work of the Holy Spirit.

That means that even the fantastic "advantage" of the Jew is eliminated if they refuse that relationship with the Spirit of God in the new Birth - in the New Covenant walk (including New Birth) that results in the law written on the heart.

AND it means that gentiles with no access at all to the "details of biography" so much the focus by some on this thread - who DO yield to and follow the Holy Spirit's prompting DO receive the result of the New Covenant work of the Holy Spirit WRITING on the tablets of the human heart - the law of God.

In Romans 2 Paul provides the EXTREME case of Jews WITH scripture (some Jews not all according to Romans 2) being lost while SOME gentiles who have NO scripture but follow the prompting of the Holy Spirit - are saved.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Salvation is not about facts, it is about a Person, our Lord Jesus Christ. Christ is the ultimate revelation of God (Heb. 1:2). If one has personally met the Lord Jesus and trusted Him and His shed blood for salvation, then he or she is saved.

And Christ is not "limited" by the existence or presence of missionaries. That is the point that Paul makes in Romans 10. That is the point that we see being made in Romans 2.

that is the Point that John makes in John 1.

The reason for evangelism is NOT the innability of God to reach people without a person talking to them. God so LOVED that He GAVE -- in addition to giving His SON AND giving the Holy Spirit to convict the WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgment He ALSO gives evangelists and missionaries etc.

If one knows nothing about Christ, or knows the facts about Christ without having heart-faith, he or she is not saved.

According to Paul in Romans 1 they KNOW about the invisible attributes of Christ.

According to John 1 the LIGHT of Christ shines into their soul.

According to Rev 3 Christ stands at the door of every heart and knocks!

But in many cases the "details of biography" are not known by those who are encountering Christ -- yet as Paul shows in Romans 2 they OPEN the door anyway - they submit and then experience the New Covenant work of the Holy Spirit "writing the Law of God on the tablets of the human heart".

Heb 8 is impossible to ignore here.

Paul calls this "The GOOD NEWS" in Romans 10 EVEN though it is not complete with all the biography that we have today.

in Fact in Heb 4:1-2 "WE have had the GOOD NEWS preached to US JUST as they also"

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

You mayl also hear that God will cut some slack to those who've never heard the gospel. Then let's call every missionary home, lest somebody hear the gospel and reject it, sealing their condemnation to hell.

This is an argument from the "innability of God" -- it states that BECAUSE God can not reach the lost without the missionary -- we send them.

But the Bible never makes that argument. In fact in Romans 10 where that argument is explicitly addressed the answer is the OPPOSITE of what you have proposed here.

God is able to reach them AND DOES reach them with the light of Christ and with the convicting Holy Spirit -- but they do not get "the details of biography" that come through missions and evangelsm. YET the point made in Romans 2 is that even without those details some SHOW the New Covenant work of the Holy Spirit writing the law of God on the tablets of the human heart (see Heb 8 for details on the New Covenant).

In 1Cor 3 Paul argues that one person plants and another waters -- each person can not think of themselves as the sole extent of God in the life of any person. In the same way we see nature in Romans 1 and Romans 10 and the Holy Spirit in John 16 and Romans 2 reaching people -- and can not assume that He is unnable to bring them to the new birth "without me".

ONE Gospel in ALL ages!

in Christ,

Bob

 

[John of Japan]

This is where I give BOTH the Words of PAUL AND my own comments where I note that Paul himself addresses this argument "they have never heard" and in answer brings in the example of nature itself - day to day pours forth speach --

I wish you would answer my direct questions given above instead of beating around the bush: "Do you believe that the heathen actually need to know Jesus Christ to be saved, or can a Shintoist, for example, be saved through his Shinto faith? Or maybe you are trying to say that a person can be saved through natural revelation, and the ultimate revelation which is Jesus Christ is not needed?"

1. Surely you "notice" that this is the context of our discussion --

13 for “WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED.”
14 How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher?

So where is the preacher sent to a Shinto heathen if it be not a missionary? The passage is very clear that a preacher is needed. But you appear to be saying (I'm not sure because your comments are so minimalistic) from this very passage that a preacher is not needed! Very strange exegesis: hot means cold and big means small in your thinking!

What better phrasing of the question being asked on this thread could possibly be imagined? Paul is speaking of the people of God (including the saints of Heb 11 some of whom had no scripture at all) those living long ages before Christ.

Wrong. Note the future tenses of vv. 13-15. Paul is talking in this passage about both Jews and Gentiles.

In v. 18, who is it that has heard? It is obvious from even a minimal knowledge of OT history that the world did not hear the truth about God in the OT era. Quite the contrary. The Jews themselves barely heard. No, Paul is talking here about the events in Acts, where people heard the Gospel in their own language (ch. 2) and then scattered throughout the world; persecution forced believers throughout the known world where churches were started; the Apostle Paul made three missionary journeys throughout the Roman Empire. At that time also the 12 apostles were travelling the whole world (Peter to S. Russia, Thomas to India, etc.).

2. Paul then opens the door to the argument that those living long ages before the cross could not possibly have known the details about Christ that we know --

17So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.
18 But I say, surely they have never heard, have they? Indeed they have;

Sure the Jews heard, over and over. Isaiah preached to the Jews, not the Gentiles. The only OT prophet exclusively to Gentiles was Jonah, and he only made one missionary trip.

John -- is this the part where you have questions?

I simply want a straight answer from you instead of long lists of passages with minimal exegesis and a bunch of colors. Can a Shinto believer be saved without a knowledge of the Gospel of Jesus Christ? If he can, why are there ten SDA missionaries in Japan (and about 130 independent Baptists like me, by the way)? Send us all home and save a bunch of money. Let them get saved in their own way. But no, the Shintoist cannot be saved without hearing the Gospel. He must hear the name of Jesus, for there is no other name under Heaven whereby he must be saved.

 

[John of Japan]

And Christ is not "limited" by the existence or presence of missionaries. That is the point that Paul makes in Romans 10. That is the point that we see being made in Romans 2.

Again I ask. Can a person be saved without knowing Christ? Please give me a direct answer.

that is the Point that John makes in John 1.

Where in John 1? Don't beat around the bush, don't be vague, be specific. If you are talking about how Christ lights every man in the world (how am I to know what you are talking about?), I've already answered this. How about if you respond to what I said previously?

The reason for evangelism is NOT the innability of God to reach people without a person talking to them. God so LOVED that He GAVE -- in addition to giving His SON AND giving the Holy Spirit to convict the WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgment He ALSO gives evangelists and missionaries etc.

Of course God is not limited--He is infinite. But He does make plans and sticks to them since He is faithful to Himself as well as us. And His plan is very clear in Scripture: salvation is limited to those with faith in Jesus Christ.

According to Paul in Romans 1 they KNOW about the invisible attributes of Christ.

Knowing attributes is your plan of salvation?

According to John 1 the LIGHT of Christ shines into their soul.

Nope, nothing in John 1 says "soul." You are reading your own thoughts into Scripture. Be precise with Scripture. God deserves that much respect and honor.

According to Rev 3 Christ stands at the door of every heart and knocks!

Nope, the Scripture does not say that. It says if any one hears, not that Christ knocks on every door. It is inexcusable to be careless with the Scriptures.

Heb 8 is impossible to ignore here.

Actually, it is quite easy to ignore here because you haven't said a thing about it for pages, and you have not shown where it is relevant, and I see nothing in it that is connected with this discussion.

 

[BobRyan]

John 1
4 In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men.
5 The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.
6 There came a man sent from God, whose name was John.
7 He came as a witness, to testify about the Light, so that all might believe[/b] through him.



Global context: "The LIGHT OF MEN" unqualified (as in – “mankind”).

The intended purpose is that ALL should believe – unqualified ALL, no limit!

"Light shines in DARKNESS" - the entire world is said to be in darkness not just the jews.
"so that ALL might believe through Him" Unqualified - the message of John in the Gospels has gone to all the WORLD.

John 1
7 He came as a witness, to testify about the Light, so that all might believe[/b] through him.
8 He was not the Light, but he came to testify about the Light.
9 There was the true [b]Light which, coming into the WORLD, enlightens every man.

This reminds us of Romans 1 where we are told that even the pagans in open rebellion against Christ are “without excuse” for His invisible attributes have been “clearly SEEN through those things that have been made”

And instead of “pointless sight” we in fact see the work of God for ALL the World (every man as John says here) in John 16 “The Spirit convicts the WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgment” so that the invisible attributes of God are seen AND the heart is convicted as God “Draws ALL” unto Him. For “God was in Christ reconciling the WORLD to Himself” 2Cor 6. And no wonder for “God is not willing for ANY to perish but for ALL to come to repentance” 2Peter 3

The point being that John’s position here is very much consistent with all of scripture on God working at the level of the entire WORLD.

John 1
10 He was [b]in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him.
11 He came to His own, and those who were His own did not receive Him.[/b]
12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name,

 

[Pastor_Bob]

Or are you just saying that anyone, anywhere in the world can know of God and their own sinfulness from nature and conscience.

That is what I am saying, but I believe it goes farther than that. I add to this Jeremiah 29:13 "And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart." I realize that this is directly speaking of Israel, but I believe it has application today as well. Perhaps more so in areas that been exposed to the gospel.

To be blunt, can a Shintoist be saved without ever hearing the Biblical Gospel of Christ, or is it necessary for a missionary like me to actually tell them the Gospel?

I do not believe that a Shintoist or any man can be saved apart from belief and faith in the shed blood of God's sacrifice for their sins.

I know you as a good pastor who loves missions, so I await your answer.

As you know, I believe missions, both home and abroad, to be the very heartbeat of God and the most vital lifeline of the church. Perhaps the missionary is sent to explain and give added illumination to the light that God has given to an individual. Many, if not most people do not respond to the light on their own as did the Ethiopian Eunuch. Still, he needed Phillip to explain it more clearly. Would the Eunuch have been saved had Phillip not come?

The fact that men choose to deny God and His light (Rom 1:21) mandates the necessity of missionaries. Thank God for them.

 

[BobRyan]

Quote:

Heb 8 is impossible to ignore here.

Actually, it is quite easy to ignore here because you haven't said a thing about it for pages, and you have not shown where it is relevant, and I see nothing in it that is connected with this discussion

Reconsider ignoring it -- as Romans 2 points to the Law written on the heart - so Heb 8 explains this to be the result of the New Covenant work of God.

In Romans 2 this is stated to be the work of the Holy Spirit.

Paul will now address that argument against the impartiality of God with a uniquely tailored example of the “ succeeding case”! Yes that is right! His argument works and he gives a very simple proving case.

Romans2:
14for when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a Law to themselves,
15in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them,



There actually were Gentiles that really did not have the Law of God! That is very important to understand. And there were those who did instinctively the things of the Law showing it was written on their heart!! Wow! So that means Paul really was right!

Heb 8
10 "" FOR THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD: I WILL PUT MY LAWS INTO THEIR MINDS, AND I WILL WRITE THEM ON THEIR HEARTS. AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD, AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE.
11 "" AND THEY SHALL NOT TEACH EVERYONE HIS FELLOW CITIZEN, AND EVERYONE HIS BROTHER, SAYING, "KNOW THE LORD,' FOR ALL WILL KNOW ME, FROM THE LEAST TO THE GREATEST OF THEM.
12 "" FOR I WILL BE MERCIFUL TO THEIR INIQUITIES, AND I WILL REMEMBER THEIR SINS NO MORE.''

Here we have the New Covenant of the NT - comprised of OT promises.

Jer 31:
33 ""But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days,'' declares the LORD, "" I will put My law within them and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.
34 ""They will not teach again, each man his neighbor and each man his brother, saying, "Know the LORD,' for they will all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them,'' declares the LORD, ""for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.''

And the OT promise - New Covenant Promise - to write God's Law on the heart and cause them to walk in His ways - meant a NEW HEART - as God's Word clearly shows.

Ezekiel
26 ""Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.
27 ""I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances.
28 ""You will live in the land that I gave to your forefathers; so you will be My people, and I will be your God.

The NT authors call this a "NEW CREATION". To turn away from rebellion and toware conformity with God's Law - having God's law written on the heart
is nothing short of "a new creation" with OLD THINGS passed away.

2Cor 5:17 Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come.


Rom 2:
28 nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh.
29 buthe is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.

 

[BobRyan]

Quote:

According to Rev 3 Christ stands at the door of every heart and knocks!

John -
Nope, the Scripture does not say that.

"Behold I STAND at the door and knock - if ANYONE hears my voice AND OPENS the door I WILL come in and fellowship with him" Rev 3.

The point remains.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Bob said Quote:

According to John 1 the LIGHT of Christ shines into their soul.

John said --
Nope, nothing in John 1 says "soul." You are reading your own thoughts into Scripture. Be precise with Scripture. God deserves that much respect and honor.

See post 54 for details on John 1 -- feel free to respond to the details.

 

[BobRyan]

Quote:

According to Paul in Romans 1 they KNOW about the invisible attributes of Christ.

John said -- Knowing attributes is your plan of salvation?

"My plan"??

See Romans 10 discussion posted repeatedly with key questions remaining unnanswered

http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1134403&postcount=48


in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

I wish you would answer my direct questions given above instead of beating around the bush: "Do you believe that the heathen actually need to know Jesus Christ to be saved, or can a Shintoist, for example, be saved through his Shinto faith? Or maybe you are trying to say that a person can be saved through natural revelation, and the ultimate revelation which is Jesus Christ is not needed?"

So where is the preacher sent to a Shinto heathen if it be not a missionary? The passage is very clear that a preacher is needed. But you appear to be saying (I'm not sure because your comments are so minimalistic) .

In Romans 10 Paul asks the question "how can they hear if someone is not sent" -- you seem to ignore this point repeatedly.

I find that "instructive" - do you not like his answer?

My argument is not that the Holy Spirit is "not needed" nor that missionaries are "not needed".

My argument is the one that is made in scripture - which is that God uses them all - but God is not limited to Missionaries and PROOF is given in both Romans 2 and Romans 10.

You seem to want to avoid this point. You seem to want to argue that since the story details can not be told without evangelism - THEN all that God does via the John 1 light of Christ and the John 3 work of the Holy Spirit can not do what we see it doing in Romans 2 and Romans 10.

This is where you are mistaken and this gets to the subject of this thread.

in Christ,

Bob