Thread split: John 17:12 and Judas

I don't dispute this, but I argued from a different point. One that stated those whom the Father gave Jesus included two groups. Those whom the Father gave Jesus (all of them) as identified in John 17 because Jesus even states 'those whom you 'gave' me', establishing the full group. I agree here, but it is in verse twelve something is revealed that portrays not just a spiritual keeping but a physical one as well. And since we know that Judas was not apart of the spiritual keeping, THIS keeping refered to by Christ MUSt be different because Jesus states he has kept all the Father gave him and NONE are lost EXCEPT ..."
But my question is - what warrents the spiritual sense in verse 12? Not that it can't be implied and direct. But if it indeed must be seen in the spiritual sense we DO have a problem with the sentence structure showing Judas was indeed part of those given to Christ.

So I will ask this instead regarding the spiritual.

Since it is contrasting one group from another which Christ had. We find the scripture states Christ kept them ...that thou gavest me (meaning all of them)..and none of them is lost, but/except the Son of Perdition..; (paraphrased KJV)
OR

OR

Why can we not postulate this single giving of men (which definately includes Judas because of the sentence structure) be that God gave all of them to Christ but they have different purposes which seperate the two groups?

If that be the case it makes more sense to see the 'but/except which includes Judas there only regarding those whom the Father gave to Christ, but NOT including him in those who recieve and believed Christ.

So you DO contend that Judas was apart of those the Father God the Son, but that he was kept for another purpose? (presumably to fulfill his part in the prophesy)

You seem to be asserting that Judas was given to Christ with the others but for a different purpose. Though all were given to Him at once not all were given for the same purposes. To that I agree and is what I have been trying to say.

Thus verse 12 SPECIFIES or Establishes that Christ has kept them all, and lost none the Father gave except for Judas. Please notice that in the verse itself 'kept' is used differently than for 'lost'. One is a physical sense including those who are not lost and the other is in the physical sense revealing who IS lost.

Then please explain the sentence structure of verse 12 which places Judas as one of those whom Christ kept but lost so as to fulfill prophesy. I'm not being rude here but seriously want to see you explain away either in the English or Greek (I can read both) how 'not loosing one except for' does not place Judas squarely inside that group given by the Father.

No. It might 'seem' right in your eyes but you still have the glaring problem with the scripture that states in essense - All that you have given me I have kept ... and none are lost except for..."

What seems right and what the passage actually says' diverge. HEY - I'm not 100% sold myself on the idea though I am strongly arguing for because I want to see something that directly disputes it. And I do have to take scripture for what it states and this HERE is my problem the plain reading of the verse and it's specific sentence structure..

 

Is that what you think is happening?
I owe a response to Allan, but I wanted it to be in a new thread.

I have no idea what to say to this stuff.
Sorry.

 

Ahhhhhhh!
I just lost my reply to Allan.
I don't have time right now to redo it.

 

Here's the Cliff's Notes version of my original reply which will hopefully clarify anything that I have previously stated in an unclear or even inaccurate manner.
Judas was not "given" to the Son as the John 6 passage describes those who are given.
He was chosen by Christ as a disciple and we agree that it was not a salvific choosing.
Two different actions with two different results.
1) Christ choosing 12 disciples
2) the Father giving 11 true sons to Jesus.

Thus, Jesus protected, preserved and lost none of those which were given to Him by the Father to be raised up at the last day.
Now with regards to Judas' "lostness'.
Judas was lost, not because Jesus stopped keeping him, but because Jesus never was given Judas to keep.
Judas was lost due to his status as the 'son of perdition and to fulfill prophesy'.
IOW, his "lostness" was self-induced and therefore not part of the ones whom Jesus was charged with keeping.
So for Jesus to say that "none has been lost", He's referring to the 11 He was given to keep.
And for him to say "except the one", He's reminding His Father that He has completed the job given Him and the "lost" condition of Judas is not Jesus' responsibility. Yes, he's lost, Jesus says, but the reason Judas is "excepted" is because he never was part of those to whom the Son was expected to keep.

That's why I see verse 12 as being a spiritual keeping of souls and not a mere physical protection of bodies.

I understand why you intrepret verse 12 the way you do, but it was not written in a vaccum.
John 6 provides the context for Jesus' words in John 17.
Am I supposed to ignore context in favor of sentence structure?

I've never been one to espouse the "plain" reading plan, since so much of the Bible requires intense reading and careful hermeneutics.

I can think of several examples of "plain reading" that none of us hold, yet other's like JW's and Mormon's do prefer.

So for non-Calvinist's to say that they strive after the "plain reading" compared to the Calvinists who try to explain things away that don't suit their views is faulty.

And it would be nice to see that charge against Calvinists dropped by the non-Calvinists on this board and IRL(in real life).

I may have missed some things you mentioned or asked, Allan, but my time here is gone for today, so I'll have to let it go for now.

 

Allan, I think I'm done.
I do not think there is anything further I can discuss about the passages that I haven't already said without getting repetitative.
You have a different interpretation about what the John 17:12 says than I do and I'll just have to leave it at that.

I think the points I've made stand up exegetically.
Obviously you disagree.
Even our style of hermeneutics is apparantly different for this passage.

Your analogies about gifts of eggs and puppies do not address my view which is that the Father did not give Judas to Jesus as a son, but that Jesus chose Judas as a disciple.
Judas wasn't given, therefore his lostness was not connected to Jesus' assignment from the Father.

I'm not perfect in my understandings, but at this point the interpretation that I've been arguing for is what fits best within the overall picture and the different commentaries that we use in our house have not suggested your view of 'physical protection' as a means of understanding the passage.
Perhaps your commentaries do.
What can I say.
It all goes back to methods of interpretation.

And unless I can think of a way to explain my argument differently to you, I'd like to move on.