Three People in the God head??? It is what the Bible teaches!

Please explain:

1Tim.3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

[ May 27, 2002, 04:47 PM: Message edited by: DHK ]

 

Childish challenges only prove what I've said about you and MEE before: That you're sucking on milk, and content to continue to do so.

I posted a response to you, called "Trinity Response"; perhaps if you open your eyes (in more ways than one), you'll see it?

 

It offends me deeply to have you come on our BaptistBoard and laugh at & mock our God

"Even so, come, Lord Jesus"

 

The Holy Bible, King James Version

Matthew 3:16 (KJV)
16And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:
Matthew 3:17 (KJV)
17And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

 

And while I'm thinking about it, and in a bad mood anyway, DHK gave you a lot of stuff that YOU have yet to answer regarding that whole "gift of tongues" thing...I assume he can rest his case, too?

[ May 27, 2002, 05:31 PM: Message edited by: Don ]

 

Oneness and MEE, I refuse to post any more on the Trinity issue. We have all tried our best to show you that we don't believe in 3 Gods. If you can't accept the truth, so be it. I believe you must be searching for the truth or you wouldn't be here.

In Christ,
Susan

 

Well, I'm not in a bad mood, and listening to some music I enjoy, so here is a copy of a letter I wrote several years ago to a young lady who was studying with the Jehovah's Witnesses and asked me what was wrong with some of what they were teaching. Here is the part of the letter that has to do with the Trinity:

==========

The concept of the Trinity is present from the opening verse of the Bible,
actually. The word "God" in Genesis 1:1 is "elohim." This is not a simple
plural of the word 'god.' The plural of that word, which means 'two,' is
"eloh." "Elohim" means "three or more."

In Deuteronomy 6:4, we have the resounding, "Hear O Israel, the LORD our
God, the LORD is one!"

"God" is, there again, "Elohim." What is also interesting is that the last
word of that, the word "one" is the word "echad." "Echad" means unity in
plurality. It is the same word used regarding marriage in Genesis. 2:24,
when a man is to leave his mother and father and become one with his wife.
The word which is NOT used there to mean "one" is "yachid." "Yachid" means a
unique singularity.

Now go to Isaiah 9 -- the famous Christmas verse:

"For unto us a child is born
to us a son is given,
and the government will be on his shoulders.
And he will be called
Wonderful Counselor,
Mighty God,
Everlasting Father,
Prince of Peace."

Now go to Isaiah 44:6 --

"This is what the LORD says -- Israel's King and Redeemer, the LORD
Almighty:
I am the first and I am the last;
Apart from me there is no God."

Please cross reference this with Jesus' words to John in Revelation
1:17-18 -- "Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last. I am the Living
One. I was dead, and behold I am alive for ever and ever."

Check the Gospel of John, opening sentences, opening chapter:

"In the beginning was the Word. And the Word was with God and the Word was
God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made;
without him nothing was made that has been made. [Remember Genesis 1:1 --
"In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth.:] .... The Word
became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the
glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and
truth."

Please note also that the absolutely correct translation of the Hebrew is
"...and God was the Word," - I urge you to look it up.

John 1 is one of the rather famous areas the JW's have mistranslated,
against all established Greek grammar...

And remember Jesus words' at the end of Matthew: "...baptizing them in the
name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit...." and, again,
Jesus' words defining eternal life in John 17:3 clearly equate Him with the
Father.

And so, although we may not understand the Trinity with our human minds very
well, the doctrine of the Trinity is present in the Bible from the first.
Jesus is God Himself in the flesh, and it was because this was His very
claim that the Pharisees were so outraged and attempted several times to
stone Him. There are two Greek words which mean "I am." The first is "ego"
which means "I am " with the emphasis on the "I". The second is "eimi",
which also means "I am" with the emphasis on the "am." John records three
times when Jesus used the double phrase "Ego eimi", meaning "I am I AM"
or "I am [the] I AM:" when He identified Himself to the woman at the well
in John 4:26, in John 8:24, when responding to the Pharisaical challenge,
and when He identified Himself to the Pharisees in John 8:58 (at which time
the Pharisees picked up rocks to stone Him for the blasphemy of using God's
name -- they thought in vain). In John 10:31-33, we see the incident where
the Pharisees again want to stone him and Jesus asks them why:

"I have shown you many great miracles from the Father. For which of these
do you stone me?"
"We are not stoning you for any of these," replied the Jews, "but for
blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God."

So what the Jehovah's Witnesses and the encyclopedias do not understand
today, the Pharisees understood quite clearly: Jesus claimed to be God.

In John 14-17 we have the famous last discourse of our Lord. In John 14:16,
Jesus promises "another" counselor to be with the disciples forever. He
identifies this Counselor as the Holy Spirit. The interesting thing here is
the word He chose for "another." Again, there are two Greek words for Him
to choose from. One is "allos", meaning "exactly alike in every detail."
The other is "heteros" meaning "a different other". The first -- allos --
would be used if you broke a vase at someone's house and you promised to buy
the owner another vase exactly like the first as a replacement. The
second -- heteros -- would be used if you had a wonderful vacation with your
family and you promised yourselves another vacation together next year.
When Jesus referred to "another" Counselor, the word He used was "allos."
He was one Counselor, but He would send "another" -- allos -- one just like
Him, for the disciples. This is re-affirmed when Jesus refers to the Holy
Spirit as "the Spirit of Truth" in John 16:13. Jesus had identified Himself
as "the truth" in John 14:6. The Spirit is also identified as being present
in Genesis 1:2 -- right there in the beginning.

We may have invented the word "Trinity" somewhere along the line to try to
put a name to this concept, but the reality of the Father, Son, and Holy
Spirit all being the One God (which is exactly what the Shema says), is
present from the beginning to the end of the Bible. One way in which you
can check this for yourself is by using a good Concordance.

 

(1 John 5:7 KJV) For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

[ May 27, 2002, 10:36 PM: Message edited by: SolaScriptura ]

 

Grannygumbo

I totally agree with you.

When someone changes what the bible says about God,His atributes, and who He is, then they have created for themselves a different, new god, not the same God of the bible. So when you say he mocks 'our God' you are right,as the god of oneness is not our God, nor is he the God of the bible.
I wonder just how many gods does oneness believe exsists?

 

""Echad" means unity in
plurality. "

This is not true. "Echad" is the normal word for the numerical one and is used many times in phrases like "one day", "one ram" etc. It can refer to a unity but does not always mean that. Even if it did, it does not necessarily mean "three." Also I would like to see a source for the idea that "Elohim" indicates three. I have not seen that in any concordance or dictionary.

 

Helen, much of what you say seems to contradict Trinitarian ideas, like this:

"the doctrine of the Trinity is present in the Bible from the first.
Jesus is God Himself in the flesh, "

Of course Jesus is God himself in flesh; but I thought Trinitarians believed Jesus was only God the Son in the flesh. Maybe I misunderstood.

One thing I have asked repeatedly on other threads and other boards, and have not seen an answer: what is the substance of each of the "persons" of the trinity? Some people refer to each "person" as a part of the whole Godhead; others, including Trinitarian writer Robert Bowman, says God is not composed of parts. Anybody hear ever heard of Robert Bowman? I think he has a web page.

 

"Now go to Isaiah 44:6 --

"This is what the LORD says -- Israel's King and Redeemer, the LORD
Almighty:
I am the first and I am the last;
Apart from me there is no God."

Please cross reference this with Jesus' words to John in Revelation
1:17-18 -- "Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last. I am the Living
One. I was dead, and behold I am alive for ever and ever."

That looks to me like a clear contradiction of the idea of a 3-person Godhead.

 

"but the reality of the Father, Son, and Holy
Spirit all being the One God (which is exactly what the Shema says), is
present from the beginning to the end of the Bible. "

You got that right. Amen!

 

Not at all.

We agree that Jesus is God. However, I would urge you to continue your looking at Revelation.

Ch.5 v.1 And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals.

v.6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.
v.7 And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.

I doubt we'll disagree that He who sits on the throne is God. I also doubt that we'll disagree that Jesus is the Lamb.

Now the question for you, Norm, is who took the book out of the right hand of Him that sat upon the throne?

 

Which thread was locked? I don't see a lock on any of them.

About the lamb in Revelation, notice that it said the lamb stood in the midst of the throne.
It appears some people would want to take this "lamb" thing and totally ignore what is quite clear in Rev. 1. What is represented by the lamb? Jesus, of course, and the sacrifice at Calvary. But does the Bible not also say Jesus is the image of the invisible God? Does it not say in Revelation that there was "a" throne in heaven, and one sat on the throne? You don't see two or three thrones; just one, and it says the lamb was in the midst of the throne. So don't try to make more out of it than what it says.

 

That was weak, Norm.

The very same verse also says the Lamb was in the midst of the four beasts; were they on the throne, too?

Or was the Lamb in the midst of the throne and the four beasts and the elders (like the verse says)?

Even if we go with your thought process: Who took the book out of the right hand of Him who sat on the throne?

By the very fact that you didn't answer this, it's apparent you see the problem with your thought process....

 

It has been stated above that "Elohim" is a plural word and refers to a trinity of "persons" comprising the one God. There are those of us who disagree and think that is merely an assumption and not supported by other scriptures.
But can we look at this objectively? Suppose we had never heard of Trinity or Oneness; can we set aside any pre-conceived notions and look at what the Bible actually says, and get an over-all picture that does not contradict any scripture?

Why does the plurality of "Elohim" have to be three? Is there some reason it can't be seven - the seven Spirits (or seven-fold Spirit) of God in Revelation 5:6?
(notice it is the lamb that has the seven eyes, which are the seven Sirits).

Then notice Deut. 4:35, "Unto thee it was showed, that thou mightest know, that the LORD (YHWH) he is God (Elohim); there is none else beside him."
Also Deut. 4:39, "Know therefore this day, and consider it in thine heart, that the LORD he is God (Elohim) in heaven above, and upon the earth beneath; there is none else."
I don't see any indication of "three persons" there, or anywhere else in the OT. Am I overlooking something? Have I misquoted the above verse?

 

"The very same verse also says the Lamb was in the midst of the four beasts; were they on the throne, too?"

Rev. 4:6 says the four beasts were round about the throne; it does not say they were in the midst of the throne, as it does the lamb.

 

Norman, there are three locks. I think "ONENESS" was referring to the lock on the topic "Three People in the God Head????? It only had three pages and they locked it before it went to ten.

Also, about the lamb taking the book, John was
looking back......ever hear of "Retrospect?" John was seeing the "Lamb" as He was slain, in the midst of the throne. He was
the "only" one worthy to open the book.

If there were three in the Godhead, looks like the Father and the Holy Spirit were being neglected since they are to be co-equal as the
other two persons.

Makes one wonder why God sent his little boy to die for the sins of the world.

Just can't figure this trinty Godhead out!

Mee

[ May 28, 2002, 11:42 PM: Message edited by: MEE ]