Timothy George comments

[whatever]

A year or so ago, my friend John Woodbridge and I published a book entitled The Mark of Jesus: Loving in a Way the World Can See. It is dedicated to the memory of Kenneth Kantzer and Francis Schaeffer, great evangelical leaders both of whom had a great influence on both of us. One of the last things Francis Schaeffer wrote before he died was a little book called, The Mark of the Christian. It was an exposition of Jesus’ words in John 13:35, “By this all people will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.” Dr. Schaeffer said that in that verse Jesus gave the world the right to decide whether or not we are true Christians based upon our observable love for one another. When I first read that, I thought “Surely this can’t be true?” But I read the text in John again, and I discovered that Dr. Schaeffer was exactly right. Jesus gives the world—unbelievers—the right to decide whether or not we belong to him based upon our observable love for one another. “By this shall all people know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.” How else are they going to know? They cannot peer into our souls, or know what is in our hearts. But they can listen to our lips, and look at our walk, and see how we treat one another within the Body of Christ, including those brothers and sisters in the Lord with whom we do not see eye to eye.

From http://www.beesondivinity.com/templates/cusbeeson/details.asp?id=25215&PID=430520&Style=

What do you all think?

 

[npetreley]

Jesus said it. It must be true.

 

[Allan]

I liked what Timothy George said in the the hyper-link you gave.

I don’t know who does more damage to our Baptist fellowship, the rabid anti-Calvinists who slander and stereotype all Reformed theology as hyper-Calvinism, or some of the Calvinists who want to tweak the leaves of the tulip so tightly that in their desire to defend the doctrines of grace, they have forgotten to be gracious. At Beeson Divinity School this year we have offered a course both on John Calvin, and one on John Wesley. Baptists have something to learn from both of these great leaders, but we are bound to neither.
I have a word of caution to my friends who lean in an Arminian direction. Beware lest your exalting of human capacity lead you past Arminianism into rank Pelagianism. Arminianism is an error; Pelagianism is a heresy. And it will surely lead us, as H. Richard Niebuhr pointed out some years ago, to a truncated view of “a God without wrath bringing men and women without sin into a kingdom without judgment through a Christ without a cross.” John Wesley would doubtless turn over in his grave to see what passes as Arminianism in some circles today!
And I also have a word of caution to my friends who lean in a Calvinistic direction. Beware lest your exalting of divine sovereignty lead you into the heresy of real, as opposed to merely alleged, hyper-Calvinism. The original founders of the Southern Baptist Convention were well aware of this danger for the anti-mission movement was red hot at the time the SBC was organized in 1845. They established this denomination to be a missionary and evangelistic enterprise, committed to sharing the Good News of Jesus Christ with everybody everywhere in the world. What passes as Calvinism in some circles today would make Andrew Fuller turn over in grave and even John Gill take a spin or two!
So, I have a proposal: let us banish the word “Calvinist” from our midst. It has become the new n-word for some, and an unseemly badge of pride for others. It does us no good. A Calvinist in the strict sense is a person who follows the teachings of John Calvin and, while John Calvin was surely one of the greatest theologians who ever graced the Christian church, no true Baptist agrees with Calvin on infant baptism, or presbyterian polity, or the establishment of the church by the state, however much we may learn from him in other respects. Let us confess freely and humbly that none of us understands completely how divine sovereignty and human responsibility coalesce in the grace-wrought acts of repentance and faith. Let us talk about these matters and, yes, let us seek to persuade one another, but let this be done with gentleness and respect as we are admonished in 1 Peter 3:15. Let us speak the truth to one another in love for truth without love is not really truth. It is rather a perverted form of puffed up pride, just as love without truth is not really love, but mere mushy sentimentality. Above all, let this discussion not hinder our joining hands and hearts to work together as evangelists and as Baptists across our theological differences. Let us join together with Charles Haddon Spurgeon, perhaps the greatest Baptist preacher who ever lived, in his open, unfettered appeal to the lost, as seen in his wonderful sermon on John 6:37, “Him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.”
“Him that cometh to me: that is the character. The man may have been guilty of an atrocious sin, too black for mention; but if he comes to Christ he shall not be cast out. I cannot tell what kind of person may have come into this hall tonight; but if burglars, murderers and dynamite men were here, I would still bid them come to Christ, for he will not cast them out. No limit is set to the extent of sin: any “him” in all the world—any blaspheming, devilish “him” that comes to Christ shall be welcomed. I use strong words that I may open wide the gates of mercy. Any “him” that comes to Christ though he comes from slum or taproom, boarding room, or gambling hall, prison or brothel—Jesus will in no wise cast out.”
Any him, and if Spurgeon were preaching that sermon today, he would also add, any her. Anyone, anywhere, anytime, anyway—any him, any her! Jesus will in no wise cast out. That is the tone we need, whether you lean in one way or another on the decrees of God and how they are ordered from all eternity. Let us get this right and then when we get to heaven we can spend a few thousand years in the theology seminar room up there sorting through the details, and we will understand it by and by.

Wise words toward all who claim the name of Christ or preach His Gospel.

 

[skypair]

Allan,

Not so fast to applaud. It appears to me that the only conclusion Timothy George can come to is that every dead infant's soul is in hell.

And unfortunately, right after explaining it, he appears to take the "mushy sentimenalist" approach to truth. But love is both truthful and endearing. Anyone care to "link up" Philadelphia with Sardis? I'd say let's have Islam move out of the 8th century and Sardis move out of the 16th century into the 21st century.

But he does finish on a "high note!"

Any “him” that comes to Christ though he comes from slum or taproom, boarding room, or gambling hall, prison or brothel—Jesus will in no wise cast out.”

skypair

 

[Pastor Larry]

It appears to me that the only conclusion Timothy George can come to is that every dead infant's soul is in hell.

Perhaps the key words here are "appears to me." That alone gives us reason to suspect George's position. Why do you constantly return to this issue of dead infants? Are you desiring more clarity on it than God has chosen to reveal? It seems like this constant drumbeat as a way to disprove Calvinism reveals an underlying disatisfaction with the revelation of God on the topic. The revelation of God is not entirely clear. So why do you insist on this being a point of attack or a dividing line?

But he does finish on a "high note!"

So you do agree with the Calvinist gospel then. It is good to hear.

I think his admonition to gentleness and respect would be greatly to the benefit of this forum.

 

[Allan]

Allan,

Not so fast to applaud. It appears to me that the only conclusion Timothy George can come to is that every dead infant's soul is in hell.

And unfortunately, right after explaining it, he appears to take the "mushy sentimenalist" approach to truth. But love is both truthful and endearing. Anyone care to "link up" Philadelphia with Sardis? I'd say let's have Islam move out of the 8th century and Sardis move out of the 16th century into the 21st century.

But he does finish on a "high note!"



skypair

I wasn't applauding anything per say. I stated that which I identified in the quotation box was

Wise words toward all who claim the name of Christ or preach His Gospel.

 

[canadyjd]

From http://www.beesondivinity.com/templates/cusbeeson/details.asp?id=25215&PID=430520&Style=

What do you all think?

Well, I don't think Jesus was "giving the world the right" to declare someone to be a Christian or not.

The sense I get from this verse, in context with the next few chapters, is that the world will identify Christians by their love for one another (and so revealing themselves to be true disciples of Christ) and that will lead to their persecution.

peace to youraying:

 

[DQuixote]

I think He gives to each of us the obligation to choose. It appears that the 5-point Calvinist doesn't have to choose -- doesn't have to do anything. The "game" is fixed. His / Her team wins no matter what. They are in a select group. No matter what the other team does, they can't win.

 

[skypair]

Perhaps the key words here are "appears to me." That alone gives us reason to suspect George's position. Why do you constantly return to this issue of dead infants? Are you desiring more clarity on it than God has chosen to reveal? It seems like this constant drumbeat as a way to disprove Calvinism reveals an underlying disatisfaction with the revelation of God on the topic. The revelation of God is not entirely clear. So why do you insist on this being a point of attack or a dividing line?

I keep "going there" because I believe it is a major weakness of Calvinism. They don't understand sin nature -- they make everyone sinners from the womb -- then the have to find "another way" to explain that dying infants go to heaven. "Another way," Larry, is what Jesus said there WASN'T.

So you do agree with the Calvinist gospel then. It is good to hear.

Those who come, Jesus will in no wise cast out. Re: "IF I be lifted up, I will draw ALL men to Myself." Jesus will draw and, if they come, they may be saved. Does that sound like the "Calvinist" gospel or the biblical gospel to you?

I think his admonition to gentleness and respect would be greatly to the benefit of this forum.

I think his gentleness and respect between Christians would be great! I can see where it could be terrible when dealing with Thyatira (since that is exactly what she wants you to do).

skypair

 

[Pastor Larry]

[qutoe[I keep "going there" because I believe it is a major weakness of Calvinism. They don't understand sin nature -- they make everyone sinners from the womb -- then the have to find "another way" to explain that dying infants go to heaven. "Another way," Larry, is what Jesus said there WASN'T.[/quote]you are incorrect. The Bible is what says we are sinners from the womb. The "way" that infants go to heaven is the blood of Jesus.

Those who come, Jesus will in no wise cast out. Re: "IF I be lifted up, I will draw ALL men to Myself." Jesus will draw and, if they come, they may be saved. Does that sound like the "Calvinist" gospel or the biblical gospel to you?

I am not aware of a distinction between the two. What you have described is the Calvinist gospel.

 

[DQuixote]

My, my, my, how we tweak the Gospel........

 

[skypair]

you are incorrect. The Bible is what says we are sinners from the womb. The "way" that infants go to heaven is the blood of Jesus.

How are they "under the blood," Larry?? According to you, they are sinners in need of a Savior. How do they "get" one?

I am not aware of a distinction between the two. What you have described is the Calvinist gospel.

I believe the Calvinist distinction is that not all are drawn to Christ -- only the "elect" are drawn, right?

skypair

 

[Isaiah40:28]

How are they "under the blood," Larry?? According to you, they are sinners in need of a Savior. How do they "get" one?

1)If as from your perspective, God knows that they will choose Him, why aren't they considered saved?
2)Do you think infants remain infants for all eternity?
3)I've always wondered about what Psalm 8:2:

From the lips of children and infants you have ordained praise

Your thoughts?