Titanic theology

[Ed Edwards]

Not only were Noah and Lot removed, but God's wrath fell on those who were left. It will be the same with the rapture. The righteous will be removed and God's wrath will fall on those who are left.

Amen, Sister Amy.G -- you are so RIGHT ON! :thumbs:

 

[Ed Edwards]

Peterotto: //Redefining terms has become natural to dispensationalist.//

Oh, lots of people define their own 'dispensationalism':

Dispensation in the NT, KJV1769 version:

1 Corinthians 9:17 (KJV1769):
For if I do this thing willingly, I have a reward:
but if against my will, a dispensation of the gospel
is committed unto me.

Ephesians 1:10 (KJV1769):
That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might
gather together in one all things in Christ, both
which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

Ephesians 3:2 (KJV1769):
If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God
which is given me to you-ward:

Colossians 1:25 (KJV1769):
Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation
of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;

The word 'dispensation' comes from the Greek 'oikonomia'
from which we get the English word 'economy'.
Here is the eternal economy of God:

the dead live
the blind see
the deaf hear
the lame leap like deer
the wise are foolish; the foolish are wise
the least are greatest; the greatest are least

 

[Ed Edwards]

The Thessalonians were familiar with
this saying of Jesus which we now find
recorded in Matthew 24:13 (KJV1873):

But he that shall endure unto
the end, the same shall be saved.

But some said of their friend "He got
sick and died before Jesus came to
get him, poor soul -- he didn't endure
to the end."

Paul addresses this problem in
a clearly pretribulation rapture passage
1 Thessalonians 4:13 - 5:11,
one of the most comforting passages in the
Bible.

1 Thessalonians 4:13 - 5:11 (nKJV):

13 But I do not want you to be ignorant,
brethren, concerning those who have fallen
asleep, lest you sorrow as others who
have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and
rose again, even so God will bring with Him
those who sleep in Jesus.
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord,
that we who are alive and remain until
the coming of the Lord will by no means
precede those who are asleep.
16 For the Lord Himself will descend
from heaven with a shout, with the voice
of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God.
And the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 Then we who are alive and remain
shall be caught up (LATIN: raptured)
together with them in the clouds to meet
the Lord in the air. And thus we shall
always be with the Lord.
18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.
5:1 But concerning the times and the seasons,
brethren, you have no need that I should
write to you.
2 For you yourselves know perfectly that
the day of the Lord so comes as a thief
in the night.
3 For when they say, "Peace and safety!"
then sudden destruction comes upon them,
as labor pains upon a pregnant woman.
And they shall not escape.
4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness,
so that this Day should overtake
you as a thief.
5 You are all sons of light and sons of the day.
We are not of the night nor of darkness.
6 Therefore let us not sleep, as others do,
but let us watch and be sober.
7 For those who sleep, sleep at night,
and those who get drunk are drunk at night.
8 But let us who are of the day be sober,
putting on the breastplate of faith and love,
and as a helmet the hope of salvation.
9 For God did not appoint us to wrath,
but to obtain salvation through our
Lord Jesus Christ,
10 who died for us, that whether we wake or sleep,
we should live together with Him.
11 Therefore comfort each other and edify
one another, just as you also are doing.

Later the Thessalonians wondered if they
had missed the rapture. Paul corrects this
in a second letter:

2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 (nKJV):

1 Now, brethren, concerning
the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ
and our gathering together to Him,
we ask you,
2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled,
either by spirit or by word or by letter,
as if from us, as though the day of Christ
had come.
3 Let no one deceive you by any means;
for that Day will not come unless
the falling away comes first,
and the man of sin
is revealed, the son of perdition,

The falling away that comes first
is the Rapture!
Then the man of sin is revealed, the
antichrist. Then the Tribulation period
begins.

While the KJV uses "falling away" here, the
English versions before the KJV used a
form of "departure" - again, the idea of
someone leaving this world as in the pretribulation
rapture/resurrection

2 Thessalonians 2:3 (Geneva Bible):
Let no man deceiue you by any meanes: for that day shall
not come, except there come a departing first, and that
that man of sinne be disclosed, euen the sonne of perdition,

There is nothing HAS TO HAPPEN before
the rapture.
Here are some things that could happen
before the rapture but they do NOT
have to happen.

1) The destruction of Damascus (Isaiah 17)
2) the Ezekiel 38 Gog/Magog invastion
(the Ezekiel 39 and Revelation 20:8
Gog/Magog invasion will be after the
Millinnial Kingdom period)
3) the building of a Temple in Jerusalem
on Mount Moriah north of and alongside
the Dome of the Rock.

But again, these things do not HAVE
TO HAPPEN before the rapture, they may
happen after the rapture; they could happen
before the rapture. They do not HAVE TO
HAPPEN before the imminent pretribulation
rapture.

 

[Jkdbuck76]

From another thread:

Problem is I've been hearing this for 60 years and "believed" that we would get Raptured within 40 years of 1947. That year has come and gone and I got "Reformed" in 1988.

I'm lost here. I read your post and it seems to say: Dispensationalism can't be true because I didn't get raptured in 1987?

Nobody knows when Christ will return. Why you thought that it would be over in 1987 is beyond me. And someone teaching you a mistake doesn't mean that the idea of dispensations is whacky. "I don't understand" does not equal "______ theology is wrong."

The point: people are dying and going to Hell every day. We must give them the gospel as the Good Lord commanded us.

Making the world a better place? I think if more people are saved and thus filled with the Holy Spirit, the world could be nicer, yes. But our job isn't to make Planet Earth a nicer place to go to Hell from.

And BTW, not ALL dispensationalists believe in the pre-trib rapture.

 

[peterotto]

Well we've actually had this discussion in another thread or two. God never tells us how long it took Him to create the heavens and the earth, so I can't say either.

Thank you for admitting that you don't hold to 6 literal days of creation.

 

[J. Jump]

Thank you for admitting that you don't hold to 6 literal days of creation.

Sure thing. If you have Scriptural evidence that it happened in six days I would welcome the viewing.

 

[peterotto]

Your argument is meaningless to the conversation. So what if is says the wicked will remain. The Bible says the times will be like Noah and Lot it doesn't say the same thing is going to happen as happened then.

Exactly! I am focusing on just that point. What the Bible says! heaven forbid I do such a thing. The Bible says in the time of Noah and Lot, the wicked were destroyed, killed, slaughtered, wipped off the face of the earth.
You endtime scenerio says the wicked will not be destroyed.

Lot and Noah were both removed. The wicked remained until they were destroyed.

How long do you think people remained? Days? Weeks?
My Bible says "AND KNEW NOT UNTIL THE FLOOD CAME, AND TOOK THEM ALL AWAY"-Mt 24:38,39. Nowhere do I read, they remained.
From my understanding of the Bible, God's wrath was swift.

Ahhhh yes, preterist have to make stuff up out of nothing.

And you have examples for proof?

but everytime one of you bring this nonsense up it just shows your lack of understanding of the Biblical timeline.

This statement is from someone who doesn't believe in 6 literal days of creation. Can anyone tell me what his Biblical timeline is?
It doesn't sound like he has one.

but just because we choose to see God's definition instead of "yours" doesn't make us incorrect.

The "yours" above can be subsituted for "by scripture alone".

I love debating dispensationalists, and yes I have converted quite a few away from that false theology. Some take longer than others, but most will listen when we stick to Scripture. What usually happens, is they realize they are not arguing with me but with Scriptures.

Once I took the dispensationalist view and did my best to defend it. They kept on tell me, "The Bible doesn't say that". And after the debate I told them it was all reverse-psychology. They realized what I did and were silent.

 

[J. Jump]

I love debating dispensationalists, and yes I have converted quite a few away from that false theology. Some take longer than others, but most will listen when we stick to Scripture. What usually happens, is they realize they are not arguing with me but with Scriptures.

Once I took the dispensationalist view and did my best to defend it. They kept on tell me, "The Bible doesn't say that". And after the debate I told them it was all reverse-psychology. They realized what I did and were silent.

Everyone all together now :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause:. YEAH Peterotto. Give me a P - Give me an E - Give me a T . . .

Do you want a cookie because you have proven that there are folks that will fall for every wind of doctrine? Oh wait yeah Scripture tells us such will happen. You can still have a cookie if you want one though.

How about that Scriptural evidence where God said I created the heavens and earth in six days? Got that handy?

 

[Ed Edwards]

Peterotto: // ... From my understanding of the Bible, God's wrath was swift.//

Peterotto: // I am focusing on just that point. What the Bible says! heaven forbid I do such a thing.//

Uh, these two statements appear to contradict each other.

IMHO (in my humble opinion)
the Bible tells HOW the times of Noah & Lot would
be like the times when Jesus Returns:

Peterotto: //You endtime scenerio says the wicked will not be destroyed.//

My endtime scenerio has the wicked destroyed.
Read my five judgement writing above which is strictly
pretriublation rapture, pre-millinnial Second Coming of Jesus.

Matthew 24:37-38 (KJV1611 Edition):
But as the dayes of Noe were,
so shall also the comming of the Sonne of man be.
38 For as in the dayes that were
before the Flood, they were eating,
and drinking, marrying, and giuing in mariage,
vntill the day that Noe entred into the Arke,

The AS indicates a similie.

Jesus will come again when the world expects not,
people will be eating & drinking, marrying, and
giving in marriage. I.E. His coming will be unexpected.
Other imagery says 'as a thief in the night'.
Well the post-tribulation ONLY rapturists
can't have this sneaky second coming.
I solve it by selecting an axiom which does not
logically conflict with any scripture:
The Coming of Jesus for the Church Age Saints
and the Coming of Jesus to wup upon
the antichrist, the devil, and the other forces of
evil come on the same 7-year-day.
The rapture unexpectdely at the beginning
of the 7-year-day and Whup-up at the end
of the day RIGHT ON SCHEDULE.

 

[peterotto]

Peterotto: // ... From my understanding of the Bible, God's wrath was swift.//

Peterotto: // I am focusing on just that point. What the Bible says! heaven forbid I do such a thing.//

Uh, these two statements appear to contradict each other.

They don't. The Bible doesn't state how long it was before all the wicked died. But if it starts raining fire and brimstones, I can deduct it won't be very long.

Ed tell me, after the Church is raptured up, how long before God's wrath begin?

Thank you

 

[webdog]

Sure thing. If you have Scriptural evidence that it happened in six days I would welcome the viewing.

What more proof do you need besides "evening and morning was the first day"...second day, etc. They were days as we know days to be. If "day" meant a trillion years, the text makes no sense.

 

[J. Jump]

What more proof do you need besides "evening and morning was the first day"...second day, etc.

But nowhere in Scripture does it say those six days are six days of creation. God simply made a statement that He did it in verse 1. He didn't tell us how long He took.

If He did please provide the Scriptural evidence.

They were days as we know days to be. If "day" meant a trillion years, the text makes no sense.

I know you and I don't agree on a lot of things, but this is something we do agree on. The six days talked about are six literal 24-hour days. However I find nowhere in Scripture that these six days are tied to creation.

 

[BobRyan]

J Jump

But nowhere in Scripture does it say those six days are six days of creation. God simply made a statement that He did it in verse 1. He didn't tell us how long He took.

If He did please provide the Scriptural evidence.


I know you and I don't agree on a lot of things, but this is something we do agree on. The six days talked about are six literal 24-hour days. However I find nowhere in Scripture that these six days are tied to creation.

http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1030724&postcount=32

Your "deny all" response above is noted J Jump

NONE are so blind as those who WILL not see! J Jump THIS goes on the "you are wrong thread" as you argument has died twice and you simply close your mind saying "you can't make me... you can't make me". That is not Bible study it is not even reason.

Genesis 2 :: New American Standard Bible (NASB)

1 Thus the heavens and the earth were completed, and all their hosts.
2 By the seventh day God completed His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done.

The "Seventh day" designation - just as we see "the sixth day" or fifth or fourth - etc.’

God states clearly that in the first SIX days of the 7 day creation week – our Creator “completed” all His work. Yet many today deny scripture on this point willingly.


Gen 2
3 Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and made.



Again emphasizing the fact that God MADE and CREATED all life on earth – the sun AND the moon in those 7 days.

Exodus 20
11 "" For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day; therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.

Again repeating the "sabat" emphasis.

 

[BobRyan]

What more proof do you need besides "evening and morning was the first day"...second day, etc. They were days as we know days to be. If "day" meant a trillion years, the text makes no sense.

Preach it!

Leading the blind to the light of day and to acceptance of scripture.

Nice going sir.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Not only were Noah and Lot removed, but God's wrath fell on those who were left. It will be the same with the rapture. The righteous will be removed and God's wrath will fall on those who are left.

In Rev 19 we SEE the wrath of God falling -- described at his appearing.

In Rev 20 we see the saints with God at that same singular event just as Paul points out in 1Thess 4 "the Dead in Christ rise first" and then we who are alive and remain are caught up "TOGETHER WITH THEM IN THE AIR" and IN THAT way (because of that event) we (the saints) shall EVER be with the Lord.

 

[J. Jump]

Bob I see we get more of your ad homenim attacks and color coded nonsense. And when you disect your entire post you are still left with trying to make the word "made" mean "created." I simply choose to believe that the Holy Spirit chose that word for a puprose and the word does NOT mean "created." There is a word for that in Hebrew and it was PURPOSEFULLY not used here. Instead of sticking our head in the sand it would behoove us to try and understand why a different word was chosen.

You simply just choose to continue unsupported church tradition. And that's okay if you want to do that you are free to do so, but please stop attacking someone that wants to retain what the text actually SAYS.

 

[billwald]

>Why you thought that it would be over in 1987 is beyond me.

You must be a young person. The standard argument for 40 years was that 40 years is one "Biblical" generation and Jesus was going to return within one generation of the establishment of Nation Israel.

 

[J. Jump]

I had heard that but for some reason the one thing that I remember most was the book 88 reasons why Jesus would return in 1988 . Anyone remember that one?

 

[Ed Edwards]

I had heard that but for some reason the one thing that I remember most was the book 88 reasons why Jesus would return in 1988 . Anyone remember that one?

I have a copy of it.
I read it first in 1990.
It is about 98% correct.

 

[BobRyan]

Gen 2
3 Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and made.

Bob I see we get more of your ad homenim attacks and color coded nonsense. And when you disect your entire post you are still left with trying to make the word "made" mean "created."

Is it your argument now that I AM the one who wrote Gen 2:3 and stated that God "MADE AND CREATED" all life on earth in those 7 days?

Why do you keep "pretending" that the solid link from Created to MADE is NOT in scripture when we keep seeing that IT IS??


Gen 2
3 Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and made.

I simply choose to believe that the Holy Spirit chose that word for a puprose and the word does NOT mean "created." There is a word for that in Hebrew and it was PURPOSEFULLY not used here.

Is this where we all are supposed to join you in closing our eyes and pretending we DO NOT see the word CREATED in the TEXT???

Is this where you once again argue that no matter what scripture says you find no reason to accept the Bible truth that God CREATED all life on earth in 7 days???

Exodus 20
11 "" For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day; therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.

1. Matthew 19:4
   And He answered and said, "Have you not read that He who created them from the beginning MADE THEM MALE AND FEMALE,
2. 1 Timothy 2:13
   For it was Adam who was first created, and then Eve

in Christ,

Bob