To My Fellow believers here Of DoG PLEASE stop calling Calvinism the Gospel!

[DaChaser1]

Or that jesus originated the DoG!

believe that in matter of how God functions in Sotierology, the DoG do indeed express the salvation model best, but ANY theological system exoplains the Gospel, but are NOT it!

Same way, jesus did NOT originate/author DoG, could say that the Holy Spirit indeed did, but by claiming jesus as author directly implies non cals denying jesus!

Now , back to the ole cal Vrs Arm debates!

 

[seekingthetruth]

Or that jesus originated the DoG!

believe that in matter of how God functions in Sotierology, the DoG do indeed express the salvation model best, but ANY theological system exoplains the Gospel, but are NOT it!

Same way, jesus did NOT originate/author DoG, could say that the Holy Spirit indeed did, but by claiming jesus as author directly implies non cals denying jesus!

Now , back to the ole cal Vrs Arm debates!

Is this thread directed to Luke/Rick/His Highness?

I hope it is.

John

 

[DaChaser1]

Is this thread directed to Luke/Rick/His Highness?

I hope it is.

John

NO person in mind, jusy wanting to see us take the "high road" here and discuss/argue from the scriptures w/o saying Jesus was its author!

 

[seekingthetruth]

NO person in mind, jusy wanting to see us take the "high road" here and discuss/argue from the scriptures w/o saying Jesus was its author!

But honestly, it was Rick/Luke that inspired you wasnt it?

John

 

[jbh28]

People are usually quoting Spurgeon when they say "Calvinism is the gospel." Here's Spurgeon's words in context so we can understand better what he was meaning.

"I have my own private opinion that there is no such thing as preaching Christ and Him crucified, unless we preach what nowadays is called Calvinism. It is a nickname to call it Calvinism; Calvinism is the gospel, and nothing else. I do not believe we can preach the gospel, if we do not preach justification by faith, without works; nor unless we preach the sovereignty of God in His dispensation of grace; nor unless we exalt the electing, unchangeable, eternal, immutable, conquering love of Jehovah; nor do I think we can preach the gospel, unless we base it upon the special and particular redemption of His elect and chosen people which Christ wrought out upon the cross; nor can I comprehend a gospel which lets saints fall away after they are called, and suffers the children of God to be burned in the fires of damnation after having once believed in Jesus. Such a gospel I abhor."

http://www.spurgeon.org/calvinis.htm

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

People are usually quoting Spurgeon when they say "Calvinism is the gospel." Here's Spurgeon's words in context so we can understand better what he was meaning.

"I have my own private opinion that there is no such thing as preaching Christ and Him crucified, unless we preach what nowadays is called Calvinism. It is a nickname to call it Calvinism; Calvinism is the gospel, and nothing else. I do not believe we can preach the gospel, if we do not preach justification by faith, without works; nor unless we preach the sovereignty of God in His dispensation of grace; nor unless we exalt the electing, unchangeable, eternal, immutable, conquering love of Jehovah; nor do I think we can preach the gospel, unless we base it upon the special and particular redemption of His elect and chosen people which Christ wrought out upon the cross; nor can I comprehend a gospel which lets saints fall away after they are called, and suffers the children of God to be burned in the fires of damnation after having once believed in Jesus. Such a gospel I abhor."

http://www.spurgeon.org/calvinis.htm

AMEN! :applause:

 

[Skandelon]

People are usually quoting Spurgeon when they say "Calvinism is the gospel." Here's Spurgeon's words in context so we can understand better what he was meaning.

"I have my own private opinion that there is no such thing as preaching Christ and Him crucified, unless we preach what nowadays is called Calvinism. It is a nickname to call it Calvinism; Calvinism is the gospel, and nothing else. I do not believe we can preach the gospel, if we do not preach justification by faith, without works; nor unless we preach the sovereignty of God in His dispensation of grace; nor unless we exalt the electing, unchangeable, eternal, immutable, conquering love of Jehovah; nor do I think we can preach the gospel, unless we base it upon the special and particular redemption of His elect and chosen people which Christ wrought out upon the cross; nor can I comprehend a gospel which lets saints fall away after they are called, and suffers the children of God to be burned in the fires of damnation after having once believed in Jesus. Such a gospel I abhor."

http://www.spurgeon.org/calvinis.htm

Isn't he the one who said, "Save the elect and elect some more..." or something like that? I love it when Calvinists are more merciful than they think God actually is...it makes their error all the more manifest. :godisgood:

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Isn't he the one who said, "Save the elect and elect some more..." or something like that? I love it when Calvinists are more merciful than they think God actually is...it makes their error all the more manifest. :godisgood:

And what error is that specifically "Oh Great & Mighty" Mod? :tongue3:

Seriously your getting quite personal sometimes with these barbs. The Lurkers are watching!:wavey:

 

[Skandelon]

And what error is that specifically "Oh Great & Mighty" Mod? :tongue3:

Oh, you don't need to call me that. "Your majesty" will do fine.

Seriously your getting quite personal sometimes with these barbs. The Lurkers are watching!:wavey:

Personal? What was personal? Did I hurt someone's feelings? :smilewinkgrin:

I was just speaking of when Calvinists talk all compassionate about wanting more people to be elected, showing they have more compassion than they think God does....

It's like when Paul in the first part of Romans 9 expresses the great love for his fellow countrymen and was even willing to be accused for their sakes. Calvinists actually believe that Paul goes on to write that God hates most of those countryman and has hardened them to certain condemnation from their birth. If that were true then you'd have to believe Paul, writing under the inspiration of the Spirit, is actually more loving and merciful than the God he serves. That, to me, makes Calvinism's errors so very self-evident. I want the 'lurkers' to see that, and its not personal.

 

[Iconoclast]

Or that jesus originated the DoG!

believe that in matter of how God functions in Sotierology, the DoG do indeed express the salvation model best, but ANY theological system exoplains the Gospel, but are NOT it!

Same way, jesus did NOT originate/author DoG, could say that the Holy Spirit indeed did, but by claiming jesus as author directly implies non cals denying jesus!

Now , back to the ole cal Vrs Arm debates!

DC,

What I think you are missing is this. When Spurgeon makes this statement what he is saying is simply this.

1Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;

2By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you,

unless ye have believed in vain.

3For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

4And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

According to the scriptures...includes all the elements of the gospel.....not just the HISTORIC FACTS of the gospel
in other words these 3 facts are not the gospel....
1]how that Christ died for our sins

2]he was buried

3]that he rose again the third day

These facts are not good news,unless a sinner is born from above. Unless God allows them to believe it savingly...they will as Paul writes in verse 2

unless ye have believed in vain.

So ...how does God save sinners so they do not believe"in vain".
He reveals all the other doctrine that leads to the gospel...all 5 points figure in
to mans fall and breaking the law of God...T
God electing sinners to be saved .......... U
Jesus becoming incarnate for the elect..........L.......he dies a covenant death for them...according to scripture
The Spirit effectually drawing the elect.........I
The Spirit giving a new heart, at regeneration..P.....enabling them to keep God's law that is in their hearts and to perservere....according to the scriptures...
looks like the gospel...or GOOD NEWS to me.

The scripture comes from God. He reveals what we have written in scripture.
Many who believe the scriptures call what is revealed in them...the truth of calvinism.....So if scripture is God's word written....and what the scripture reveals is .....TULIP...theologically....then you can see what Spurgeon and others mean by the statement.
You might not want to use it...or the terms...but others have no problem with it,,if properly understood.

 

[Iconoclast]

Isn't he the one who said, "Save the elect and elect some more..." or something like that? I love it when Calvinists are more merciful than they think God actually is...it makes their error all the more manifest. :godisgood:

Maybe you could tell us where that quote was...so we could see the context?

Calvinists are very content with God's electing love. Calvinists rest in the truth of God and His electing Love.

God will save all he can wisely save...no more, no less.....His righteous and Holy plan and purpose is being made known in time.
Calvinists love the truth of God...and would like to see all grow in grace and be comforted by these great truths....so they would not be tormented by these "dark thoughts about an austere strawman god "who people attempt to substitute for the true God as revealed in the word.

I want the 'lurkers' to see that, and its not personal.

The lurkers will see the truth of God...if God allows them to.The lurkers will also see when you twist and pervert Romans 9 to have it say what it does not say...again ascribing evil motives where none exist.

Calvinists actually believe that Paul goes on to write that God hates most of those countryman and has hardened them to certain condemnation from their birth

Why don't we let calvinists say...what we say....no one asked you to be the "calvinist spokesman"...who seems to paint such a gloomy picture 9 times out of ten.

 

[Aaron]

Or that jesus originated the DoG!

believe that in matter of how God functions in Sotierology, the DoG do indeed express the salvation model best, but ANY theological system exoplains the Gospel, but are NOT it!

Same way, jesus did NOT originate/author DoG, could say that the Holy Spirit indeed did, but by claiming jesus as author directly implies non cals denying jesus!

Now , back to the ole cal Vrs Arm debates!

And while we're at it, we can say Creationism isn't science. All well and good for placating the demands of those with ideas incompatible with the Scriptures, but it's a lie.

Noncalvinists will not be persuaded with sympathy.

 

[Aaron]

People are usually quoting Spurgeon when they say "Calvinism is the gospel." Here's Spurgeon's words in context so we can understand better what he was meaning.

"I have my own private opinion that there is no such thing as preaching Christ and Him crucified, unless we preach what nowadays is called Calvinism. It is a nickname to call it Calvinism; Calvinism is the gospel, and nothing else. I do not believe we can preach the gospel, if we do not preach justification by faith, without works; nor unless we preach the sovereignty of God in His dispensation of grace; nor unless we exalt the electing, unchangeable, eternal, immutable, conquering love of Jehovah; nor do I think we can preach the gospel, unless we base it upon the special and particular redemption of His elect and chosen people which Christ wrought out upon the cross; nor can I comprehend a gospel which lets saints fall away after they are called, and suffers the children of God to be burned in the fires of damnation after having once believed in Jesus. Such a gospel I abhor."

http://www.spurgeon.org/calvinis.htm

Yes, he meant Calivism is the Gospel. No one can preach the Gospel, without preaching Calvinism and vice versa.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Oh, you don't need to call me that. "Your majesty" will do fine.



Personal? What was personal? Did I hurt someone's feelings? :smilewinkgrin:

I was just speaking of when Calvinists talk all compassionate about wanting more people to be elected, showing they have more compassion than they think God does....

It's like when Paul in the first part of Romans 9 expresses the great love for his fellow countrymen and was even willing to be accused for their sakes. Calvinists actually believe that Paul goes on to write that God hates most of those countryman and has hardened them to certain condemnation from their birth. If that were true then you'd have to believe Paul, writing under the inspiration of the Spirit, is actually more loving and merciful than the God he serves. That, to me, makes Calvinism's errors so very self-evident. I want the 'lurkers' to see that, and its not personal.

When you boil it down, what you are really opposed to is Predestination. So that all readers are made aware, I will go over it to clarify. All Doctrines of Grace Believers maintain that God has predestined a great number to be conformed to the image of His Son (Rom.8: 28-30) .While some object to this doctrine because they say it is unfair, we Doctrines of Grace Believers rejoice in it, for we see that had it not been for predestination, the whole human family would have been lost forever. Predestination is not the thing that condemns a person, or puts them in a ruined condition, but the very thing that gets them out of such a state. Predestination concerns not "what" but "whom." It is the great purpose of God to lift a people up from sin and corruption and make them like Jesus Christ. That to us is glorious!

 

[Luke2427]

DC,

What I think you are missing is this. When Spurgeon makes this statement what he is saying is simply this.



According to the scriptures...includes all the elements of the gospel.....not just the HISTORIC FACTS of the gospel
in other words these 3 facts are not the gospel....
1]how that Christ died for our sins

2]he was buried

3]that he rose again the third day

These facts are not good news,unless a sinner is born from above. Unless God allows them to believe it savingly...they will as Paul writes in verse 2


So ...how does God save sinners so they do not believe"in vain".
He reveals all the other doctrine that leads to the gospel...all 5 points figure in
to mans fall and breaking the law of God...T
God electing sinners to be saved .......... U
Jesus becoming incarnate for the elect..........L.......he dies a covenant death for them...according to scripture
The Spirit effectually drawing the elect.........I
The Spirit giving a new heart, at regeneration..P.....enabling them to keep God's law that is in their hearts and to perservere....according to the scriptures...
looks like the gospel...or GOOD NEWS to me.

The scripture comes from God. He reveals what we have written in scripture.
Many who believe the scriptures call what is revealed in them...the truth of calvinism.....So if scripture is God's word written....and what the scripture reveals is .....TULIP...theologically....then you can see what Spurgeon and others mean by the statement.
You might not want to use it...or the terms...but others have no problem with it,,if properly understood.

I would have posted myself along these lines but you said it better here than I was going to say it.

Good work.

 

[Luke2427]

When you boil it down, what you are really opposed to is Predestination. So that all readers are made aware, I will go over it to clarify. All Doctrines of Grace Believers maintain that God has predestined a great number to be conformed to the image of His Son (Rom.8: 28-30) .While some object to this doctrine because they say it is unfair, we Doctrines of Grace Believers rejoice in it, for we see that had it not been for predestination, the whole human family would have been lost forever. Predestination is not the thing that condemns a person, or puts them in a ruined condition, but the very thing that gets them out of such a state. Predestination concerns not "what" but "whom." It is the great purpose of God to lift a people up from sin and corruption and make them like Jesus Christ. That to us is glorious!

Very well said!!

 

[Luke2427]

Noncalvinists will not be persuaded with sympathy.

I do wish we could get folks on our side to see this.

Too many of our DoG brethren think that you can win "non-cals" over with sweetness.

You can't.

You won't win many over with any means you use.

But you will win some with blunt facts.

Those you win that way will be better off because they were not petted in- they were persuaded in.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I do wish we could get folks on our side to see this.

Too many of our DoG brethren think that you can win "non-cals" over with sweetness.

You can't.

You won't win many over with any means you use.

But you will win some with blunt facts.

Those you win that way will be better off because they were not petted in- they were persuaded in.

Then give me leave then my Brothers In Christ to premise a caution or two. ...... ahhh my mentor George Whitefield says it best.... "They that now think they are Christians, that now flatter themselves that they have an interest in Jesus Christ; whereas if we come to examine their experiences, we shall find that their peace is but a peace of the devil"s making -- it is not a peace of God"s giving -- it is not a peace that passeth human understanding. It is matter, therefore, of great importance, my dear hearers, to know whether we may speak peace to our hearts."

 

[preacher4truth]

And what error is that specifically "Oh Great & Mighty" Mod? :tongue3:

Seriously your getting quite personal sometimes with these barbs. The Lurkers are watching!:wavey:

:thumbsup: :thumbsup:

 

[preacher4truth]

When you boil it down, what you are really opposed to is Predestination. So that all readers are made aware, I will go over it to clarify. All Doctrines of Grace Believers maintain that God has predestined a great number to be conformed to the image of His Son (Rom.8: 28-30) .While some object to this doctrine because they say it is unfair, we Doctrines of Grace Believers rejoice in it, for we see that had it not been for predestination, the whole human family would have been lost forever. Predestination is not the thing that condemns a person, or puts them in a ruined condition, but the very thing that gets them out of such a state. Predestination concerns not "what" but "whom." It is the great purpose of God to lift a people up from sin and corruption and make them like Jesus Christ. That to us is glorious!

Yes, it is in opposition to being chosen by Him, always turns into "why you and not him?" among other things that need to be taken up with the Potter. These things the Scriptures confirm, that it is He who chose us in Him, and before the world began, and based upon nothing we've done. So even the fact of being chosen in Him before the world began is in itself 'predestination', 2 Thess. 2:13-14. You're correct in that this is where his troubling begins.