To My fellow Dispies: have you ever heard "partial rapture" theory?

[Yeshua1]

That God will indeed pre trib rapture out those looking for Him, living for him, but lukewarm Christians stay behind to face the tribulation in order to "toughen up?"

 

[Revmitchell]

No but it sounds similar to millennial Exclusion

 

[Tom Bryant]

Partial rapture-ists may believe that only those in good fellowship with their local Baptist Church will be raptured. Of course, the local Baptist church better be KJV, no contemporary music (which means if Fanny Crosby didn't write, we don't sing it) and various other extremist abnormalities.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Partial rapture-ists may believe that only those in good fellowship with their local Baptist Church will be raptured. Of course, the local Baptist church better be KJV, no contemporary music (which means if Fanny Crosby didn't write, we don't sing it) and various other extremist abnormalities.

No Lutherans allowed....no matter what synod they are affiliated with...:tongue3:

 

[OldRegular]

That God will indeed pre trib rapture out those looking for Him, living for him, but lukewarm Christians stay behind to face the tribulation in order to "toughen up?"

Neither are Biblical. The Church will endure whatever tribulation comes just as always. But the doctrine of a partial rapture is ???????

 

[Revmitchell]

Neither are Biblical. The Church will endure whatever tribulation comes just as always. But the doctrine of a partial rapture is ???????

Maybe you should have respect for the op since you are not a dispie and not try to derail the thread.

 

[OldRegular]

Maybe you should have respect for the op since you are not a dispie and not try to derail the thread.

I am not trying to derail the thread. I responded to the OP. If exclusive threads are allowed on this Forum then the rules should say so.

 

[Gregory Perry Sr.]

Yepppp!

No but it sounds similar to millennial Exclusion

Rev.....I believe you are right about that! Sounds like that "baptist purgatory" we've heard about. Heresy...just plain old heresy.

Bro.Greg

 

[Bob Alkire]

That God will indeed pre trib rapture out those looking for Him, living for him, but lukewarm Christians stay behind to face the tribulation in order to "toughen up?"

No, know nothing about that.

 

[Darrell C]

Neither are Biblical. The Church will endure whatever tribulation comes just as always. But the doctrine of a partial rapture is ???????

Maybe you should have respect for the op since you are not a dispie and not try to derail the thread.

An opposing viewpoint should always be welcomed, providing the opposer is prepared to maintain the opposition with scripture...lol.

The burden then, is on him to give the biblical basis as to why a Pre-Trib view is unbiblical.

I will agree with him that a partial rapture is unbiblical based upon the fact that there cannot be a mistaking of Paul's intent here:


1 Thessalonians 4:16-17

King James Version (KJV)


16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.


At this time, the-not some of the-dead in Christ will rise, and we-not some of us-which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them...not some of them.

I cannot see an implication of partial rapture, at least, not in the passages dealing specifically with the catching away, so justification would have to be found elsewhere, and there is no passage I can think of that, when dealing with the Return of the Lord, do not divide both groups as saved or judged. We never see the wicked living through the judgments (i.e. at the end of either the Tribulation or the Millennial Kingdom.

Be very glad to look at any presentation that would support such a position, as it is looking at some of the odder positions that actually strengthen the positions that are taken for granted.

God bless.

 

[OldRegular]

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17

King James Version (KJV)


16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

This passage does not establish a pre-trib rapture, only that those dead in Jesus Christ shall be resurrected first. The following Scripture tells us that all the dead shall be resurrected at the same time period.

John 5:28, 29
28. Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29. And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

"The hour" is "the hour" is "the hour" and no pre-trib supposition can change that.

 

[Gregory Perry Sr.]

This passage does not establish a pre-trib rapture, only that those dead in Jesus Christ shall be resurrected first. The following Scripture tells us that all the dead shall be resurrected at the same time period.

John 5:28, 29
28. Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29. And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

"The hour" is "the hour" is "the hour" and no pre-trib supposition can change that.

The passage in question (1 Thess.4:16-17) certainly does NOT refute the Pre-trib rapture of the church either. As a matter of fact it must be a different event from the bodily return of Christ (with His Church)at the end of the tribulation just due to the fact that He doesn't physically set foot on earth at that time (the rapture) like he does at Armaggedon and the subsequent establishment of His Millenial rule in Jerusalem. At the rapture He comes in the air/clouds only. He sets foot on earth once again ONLY AFTER the tribulation.

As to the passage in John 5, you have to interpret it in light of the rest of scripture. There are different resurrections and different judgements for different purposes. The Great White Throne judgement at the end of the 1000 years will be ONLY for the lost.... there will NO saved/righteous man stand in judgement on that day. The sins of the "righteous"(those IN CHRIST and under His Blood) were judged at the cross. Our works will be judged/rewarded at the JSOC after the rapture during the time of tribulation on the earth.("yet so as by fire"...we SHOULD have godly fear about that). Always remember....scripture interpretes scripture. In light of what other scriptures teach, John 5:29 cannot mean a general resurrection AT THE SAME TIME....but there certainly is an "hour" coming for each and every one of us, albeit, at different times. As just one example of the numerous different "resurrections" I would point your attention to the book of Matthew chapter 27 verses 50-54 where the bodies of many SAINTS arose as Christ gave up the Ghost and appeared unto many in that day. What a day that must have been to those who witnessed the events of that hour...amen?

God Bless Ya'll,
Bro.Greg:thumbs::saint:

 

[OldRegular]

The passage in question (1 Thess.4:16-17) certainly does NOT refute the Pre-trib rapture of the church either. As a matter of fact it must be a different event from the bodily return of Christ (with His Church)at the end of the tribulation just due to the fact that He doesn't physically set foot on earth at that time (the rapture) like he does at Armaggedon and the subsequent establishment of His Millenial rule in Jerusalem. At the rapture He comes in the air/clouds only. He sets foot on earth once again ONLY AFTER the tribulation.

You are reading something into the passage from Thessalonians that is not there.

As to the passage in John 5, you have to interpret it in light of the rest of scripture.

The passage from John 5 is crystal clear. The more ambiguous passages of Scripture must be interpreted in light of those that are more clear.

There are different resurrections and different judgements for different purposes. The Great White Throne judgement at the end of the 1000 years will be ONLY for the lost.... there will NO saved/righteous man stand in judgement on that day. The sins of the "righteous"(those IN CHRIST and under His Blood) were judged at the cross. Our works will be judged/rewarded at the JSOC after the rapture during the time of tribulation on the earth.("yet so as by fire"...we SHOULD have godly fear about that).

There will be only one resurrection and judgment as shown in John 5:28,29 and Revelation 20:11, the Great White Throne judgment.

Always remember....scripture interpretes scripture. In light of what other scriptures teach, John 5:29 cannot mean a general resurrection AT THE SAME TIME....but there certainly is an "hour" coming for each and every one of us, albeit, at different times.

The Scripture Principle that "scripture interpretes scripture" states that those Scripture that are more difficult must be interpreted in light of those more clear.

The Synthesis Principle as stated by John F. MacArthur [Charismatic Chaos, page 94] is in part as follows:

The Reformers used the expression scriptura scripturam interpretatur, or ‘Scripture interprets Scripture.’ By this they meant that obscure passages in Scripture must be understood in light of clearer ones. If the Bible is God's Word, it must be consistent with itself. No part of the Bible can contradict any other part. One divine Author, the Holy Spirit, inspired the whole Bible, so it has one marvelous, supernatural unity. The synthesis principle puts Scripture together with Scripture to arrive at a clear, consistent meaning. If we hold to an interpretation of one passage that does not square with something in another passage, one of the passages is being interpreted incorrectly, or possibly both of them. The Holy Spirit does not disagree with himself. And the passages with obvious meanings should interpret the more arcane [obscure] ones. One should never build a doctrine on a single obscure or unclear text.

Unfortunately MacArthur does not consistently follow the Scripture Principle.


John 5:28, 29 clearly teaches that in a certain time period there will be a resurrection of all that are in the graves.

As just one example of the numerous different "resurrections" I would point your attention to the book of Matthew chapter 27 verses 50-54 where the bodies of many SAINTS arose as Christ gave up the Ghost and appeared unto many in that day. What a day that must have been to those who witnessed the events of that hour...amen?

God Bless Ya'll,
Bro.Greg:thumbs::saint:

There is no indication that these mentioned in Matthew had resurrection bodies and did not return to the grave. In fact Scripture indicates that the resurrection of Jesus Christ is the only one to date:


1 Corinthians 15:20-23, KJV
20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming.

 

[Gregory Perry Sr.]

Sighhhhhhh !

You are reading something into the passage from Thessalonians that is not there.

The passage from John 5 is crystal clear. The more ambiguous passages of Scripture must be interpreted in light of those that are more clear.

There will be only one resurrection and judgment as shown in John 5:28,29 and Revelation 20:11, the Great White Throne judgment.



The Scripture Principle that "scripture interpretes scripture" states that those Scripture that are more difficult must be interpreted in light of those more clear.


Unfortunately MacArthur does not consistently follow the Scripture Principle.


John 5:28, 29 clearly teaches that in a certain time period there will be a resurrection of all that are in the graves.




There is no indication that these mentioned in Matthew had resurrection bodies and did not return to the grave. In fact Scripture indicates that the resurrection of Jesus Christ is the only one to date:


1 Corinthians 15:20-23, KJV
20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming.

OR...I respectfully disagree with you on all points that were highlighted and I will only comment further on the following....There will be no saved/righteous people judged for anything at the Great White Throne Judgement...that is for the lost of all generations, be they the lost who are alive at the end of the millenium or the lost that have gone to the grave prior to it. As I said before the judgement/price of sin of the saved of all generations was paid at Calvary...or we are yet in our sins. By the way....I don't follow John MacArthur on much of anything. I'm not saying he is wrong about everything....I've just personally never been a "fan" of his so what he has said is irrelevant to me. Sorry. One last thing...your interpretation of John 5:28-29 is clear to you in what you believe due only to the particular theological "prism" through which you observe it. The same is probably true of me as well....we just differ on the matter of how we view future events. The Lord will straighten us all out in the end.

Bro.Greg

 

[OldRegular]

OR...I respectfully disagree with you on all points that were highlighted and I will only comment further on the following....There will be no saved/righteous people judged for anything at the Great White Throne Judgement...that is for the lost of all generations, be they the lost who are alive at the end of the millenium or the lost that have gone to the grave prior to it. As I said before the judgement/price of sin of the saved of all generations was paid at Calvary...or we are yet in our sins. By the way....I don't follow John MacArthur on much of anything. I'm not saying he is wrong about everything....I've just personally never been a "fan" of his so what he has said is irrelevant to me. Sorry. One last thing...your interpretation of John 5:28-29 is clear to you in what you believe due only to the particular theological "prism" through which you observe it. The same is probably true of me as well....we just differ on the matter of how we view future events. The Lord will straighten us all out in the end.

Bro.Greg

The question is not the "theological prism" but what does Scripture teach. There is no Scripture that supports the concept of a pre-trib removal of the Church.

 

[Yeshua1]

The question is not the "theological prism" but what does Scripture teach. There is no Scripture that supports the concept of a pre-trib removal of the Church.

what is the purpose of the great tribualtion? Bible expressly clear that it is the missing 7 years of daniel, and the time for god to del with isreal and prepare the Jewish peoples for the second Coming of Christ!

Also, time for wrath.judgement of god against world systems, so no need for the church to even be here, as He will not pour our Wrath on us saved and under Christ!

 

[SovereignMercy]

I do. The church will go and everyone else will stay.

 

[OldRegular]

what is the purpose of the great tribualtion? Bible expressly clear that it is the missing 7 years of daniel, and the time for god to del with isreal and prepare the Jewish peoples for the second Coming of Christ!

That statement is pure nonsense. The passage dealing with the 70th week is one of the most obscure in Scripture and you have the effrontery to say that the Bible makes expressly clear that the great tribulation is the missing 7 years of Daniel. The seven years of Daniel are not missing; they follow the other 483. That is another invention of dispensational theology.

Furthermore, God dealt with the Jews in 70 AD when He destroyed the temple. With the crucifixion of Jesus Christ at the instigation of the Jews they had served their part in God's purpose of Salvation for His people. From then on He has dealt with those who identify as ethnic Israel as He has all people.

Also, time for wrath. judgement of god against world systems, so no need for the church to even be here, as He will not pour our Wrath on us saved and under Christ!

So He is going to pour out His wrath on those saved by the preaching of the gospel of the kingdom by 144,000 Jews.

Jesus Christ before His crucifixion told His disciples: These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world. [John 16:33]

 

[OldRegular]

I do. The church will go and everyone else will stay.

And Scripture that supports this statement is?????????

 

[michael-acts17:11]

Jesus, Himself, said exactly what would happen when He returns in Matthew 13. He will send angels to gather the lost first & then the believers. There's not a single verse of Scripture which claims a super secret "rapture" of the Church. I believed that nonsense until I decided to search the Scriptures for myself.

Eisegesis is not a valid hermeneutic. I'll stick with Jesus' clearly spoken teaching over reading beliefs into Scripture.

Another thing, the same day Jesus returns, the very elements of the universe will be destroyed by a "fervent heat". His Second Coming will not be stretched out over a 1,007 year period. We will all be taken out just before creation is destroyed & recreated.


But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness. (2Peter 3:10-13)

Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear. (Matt 13:43