To the Extreme?

[Salty]

From a thread in a Fundie forum:

Torrey is correct here: That is no issue, the problem is when an IFB or anyone else preaches as dogma and incontrivertible fact that his own P.O.V. on the topic is "Truth"....IF you are to do so...then you do indeed need a verse where the Bible says "Thou shalt not"...Otherwise, you are preaching as dogma mere tradition and personal opinion. That is wrong, and I believe it creates an unnecessary obstacle to the furtherance of the simplicity of the gospel.

Is the line between POV and "thou shalt not" a little gray at times?
For example, nowhere in the Bible does it say "Thou shalt not smoke" but preachers will use I Cor 6:19-20. Could this verse also be used when preaching against drinking?

As teens we were taught that dancing was wrong. A) close dancing could be s*xly stimulating B) fast dancing has too much of a beat to it.
Did Frank Garlock hit the mark with "The Big Beat, A Rock Blast"? Does music effect us?
Should we avoid music based on the lifestyle of the artist?
Movies - Back in the Day, you could always count on a movie being good if it was Walt Disney, but could you be sure of anything else - remember back then there was no rating system. Do we draw the line at G, GP, R - of course we would never go to an X movie. Can we watch an R rated movie - violence or otherwise- without it affecting us.
And of course there is playing cards. Sure "Go Fish" is harmless enough - but how long before you start playing for money - and then high stakes.
And what about gambling. If I have a dollar, does it make a difference if i spend it on a soda pop, (which is bad for my teeth) or on a lottery ticket?
Paul's statement in I Cor 8:13 "Wherefore, if meat make my brother to offend, I will eat no flesh while the world standeth, lest I make my brother to offend" - is that a command or just advice.
There are a thousand more examples - but the bottom line is "Where do you draw the line" and is that line different for each individual.

 

[HeirofSalvation]

Your OP is VERY Open-ended. You are asking about 35 different questions all of which should be dealt with separately. It is wrong thinking to think that, say, "smoking" and "drinking" are even answered by the same passages of Scripture, because they aren't.... Similarly, the whole "cards"/ "gambling" issue is decidedly different as well.

Whether or not women should wear pants, is also decidedly different; and is a question reserved for passages of Scripture which DO NOT say anything about say...the drinking issue.
"Separation"...isn't exactly an all-encompassing doctrine which serves as a Universal guide...It's...actually, just a word.

From a thread in a Fundie forum:
Is the line between POV and "thou shalt not" a little gray at times?
For example, nowhere in the Bible does it say "Thou shalt not smoke" but preachers will use I Cor 6:19-20. Could this verse also be used when preaching against drinking?

It couldn't in the slightest....In fact...You can't even use it to preach against smoking!!. Paul begins this at verse 15...not 19, and this is what he says. Let's look at the passage in context: (from KJV)
1Cr 6:15 Know ye not that your bodies are the members of Christ? shall I then take the members of Christ, and make [them] the members of an harlot? God forbid.
1Cr 6:16 What? know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body? for two, saith he, shall be one flesh.
1Cr 6:17 But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.
1Cr 6:18 Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body.
1Cr 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost [which is] in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
1Cr 6:20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.
Fundie-Preachers to often misuse this passage here:
1Cr 6:18 Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body.
The word "WITHOUT"..... means "outside-of" as a preposition here....In other words...Paul is actually saying "for Pete's sake...don't think that I am speaking about ANY topic other than fornication..."

Any Fundamentalist Preacher who uses 1 Corinthians 6 to preach against smoking should be immediately and summarily fired with no severance whatsoever. That is abuse of Scripture to an EXTREME!!!! I truly mean that: If you give one whit about the Scriptures, and you don't want people to smoke...Then preach it as bad Stewardship...THAT!!! is a legit argument.

As teens we were taught that dancing was wrong. A) close dancing could be s*xly stimulating B) fast dancing has too much of a beat to it.
Did Frank Garlock hit the mark with "The Big Beat, A Rock Blast"?

I don't know about Garlock's link and I confess I haven't seen it yet. But, although dancing is NOT inherently wrong...it is decidedly something that only the Spiritually mature should engage in, or, should "chaperone" prior to engaging in it. Dancing CAN without question be QUITE sexually provacative...however, I must confess, that I was rather annoyed when after I gave my own mother away at her wedding to a Godly man...and then gave the toast....that the Baptist Church I was in, prevented me from getting the "first dance" (as it were...like the father/daughter thing)....That was possibly extreme. Do I "BLAME" them for having a policy which simply said "no" to ALL dancing? No...it was a Big SBC Church with a lot of influence in the community. They can't possibly adjudicate EVERY single scenario....they had a Universal policy of playing it "safe". But, I was annoyed that I couldn't. But can my wife and I take dance lessons together? You Bethcha'!!!

Does music effect us?

Without a DOUBT!!!! Not only that...but we have to be VERY careful with music. Music is essentially one of the most powerful forces in the Universe....There are animals...and then, there is man who was created in the image of God. The difference? In a lot of ways, it's that we are "musical" and the animals aren't. :wavey:

Should we avoid music based on the lifestyle of the artist?

I only wish...if we did that, than we would all be free of that horrific beast Mozart...(whos music never was particularly good) and we would have VASTLY greater appreciation for GOOD musicians like Haydn and Handel

Movies - Back in the Day, you could always count on a movie being good if it was Walt Disney, but could you be sure of anything else

-
No "Medium" of communication is either inherently "good" or "bad"...only how it is used. "Movies" can be a truly wonderful thing...I don't go more than a year without forcing everyone around me to watch "Chariots of Fire" and "The Mission"....I don't go two consecutive years without forcing "Lean on Me" on them either. (Side note)....The hero of "Lean on Me" (Mr. Clark) actually has a ranch near my house he named "H.N.I.C. Ranch"...He regularly hosts such notables as Ann Coulter, Sean Hannity or David Horowitz there

remember back then there was no rating system. Do we draw the line at G, GP, R - of course we would never go to an X movie.

The rating system isn't critical...I have more problems with "Mrs. Doubtfire" (PG)...and "The Lion King" (G)...than I ever will with "Red Dawn" (R) <---the real "Red Dawn" not whatever new-fangled thingy I haven't seen.

Can we watch an R rated movie - violence or otherwise- without it affecting us.

"Affecting you"...no...art always "affects" us...that's it's job. Humans are creatures of "art" and "music"...we aren't animals...we are made in the image of GOD :wavey: It SHOULD "affect" us...If by "affect" you meant "compromise us for the worse???" Then sure. I don't fear violence in movies. The Scriptures are loaded with violence.

And of course there is playing cards. Sure "Go Fish" is harmless enough - but how long before you start playing for money - and then high stakes.

The "Playing-cards" issue exists in two categories:
1.) It's historical similarity to the "Tarrot" (that's why most fundies preach against it)
and
2.) It's association with gambling

And what about gambling. If I have a dollar, does it make a difference if i spend it on a soda pop, (which is bad for my teeth) or on a lottery ticket?

NOPE!!!!! Not one whit...in fact, you are actually better to try the lotto...because there is a mathematically and statistically insignifigant chance you might ACTUALLY WIN some money with a Lotto ticket.....You merely GUARANTEE yourself bad teeth by buying sodas...That's one of the ways in which some Fundies make prize idiots out of themselves...The key is...can you limit yourself to your one dollar? If so, then no harm done....Every few months or so, my wife and I pick up a "scratch-off"...and we have a lot of fun "scratching" it off bit by bit...and seeing if we win. Have we EVER won??? No, but, we don't exactly expect to, the fun of it was still a dollar well spent....We bond.

 

[saturneptune]

Well, the only way to answer the question is to say, I draw the line where the Holy Spirit guides me to. I do not memorize a bunch of Baptist vice rules and obey them on my own power. I am on a crusade against those who constantly preach about dancing, smoking, gambling, TV and movies, (leave drinking alone, as there is some basis for that) and turn right around and commit gossip, harm the local church, and worry more about their fat guts at pot luck time than they do about using their mouths to tell others the Good News.

There is no need to address any given situation, as there re thousands of senarios. If one is living in the will of the Lord, then the Holy Spirit lets that person know instantly if it is right or wrong.

Deacons know it is wrong to exercise power they do not have by Scripture or church covenant. Members know if they are holding money back from the Lord. People know proper behavior when dating. Christians know when their actions lift up Christ and when they do not. Why, because the Holy Spirit is guiding them.

It does not take an entire thread to figure out if it is ok to leave my wife and run away with another woman (or man in todays world).

Personally, I think those over the years who have harped on dancing, lottery tickets, tattoos, TV and movies have done more to harm to the local church and thus the work of the Lord than those doing the dancing and buying lottery tickets. Typically, this is all they ever contribute to a church, other than sitting their carcasses on a pew. They never visit, they never go on a mission trip, they never man a clothing closet, they never visit the sick or help the poor, they just run their mouths.

I do believe those who started threads saying tattoos are evil and not singing hymns are a sign of being lost, well, they need to double check the Holy Spirit in them.

 

[HeirofSalvation]

Well, the only way to answer the question is to say, I draw the line where the Holy Spirit guides me to. I do not memorize a bunch of Baptist vice rules and obey them on my own power. I am on a crusade against those who constantly preach about dancing, smoking, gambling, TV and movies, (leave drinking alone, as there is some basis for that) and turn right around and commit gossip, harm the local church, and worry more about their fat guts at pot luck time than they do about using their mouths to tell others the Good News.

There is no need to address any given situation, as there re thousands of senarios. If one is living in the will of the Lord, then the Holy Spirit lets that person know instantly if it is right or wrong.

Deacons know it is wrong to exercise power they do not have by Scripture or church covenant. Members know if they are holding money back from the Lord. People know proper behavior when dating. Christians know when their actions lift up Christ and when they do not. Why, because the Holy Spirit is guiding them.

It does not take an entire thread to figure out if it is ok to leave my wife and run away with another woman (or man in todays world).

Personally, I think those over the years who have harped on dancing, lottery tickets, tattoos, TV and movies have done more to harm to the local church and thus the work of the Lord than those doing the dancing and buying lottery tickets. Typically, this is all they ever contribute to a church, other than sitting their carcasses on a pew. They never visit, they never go on a mission trip, they never man a clothing closet, they never visit the sick or help the poor, they just run their mouths.

I do believe those who started threads saying tattoos are evil and not singing hymns are a sign of being lost, well, they need to double check the Holy Spirit in them.

Your post makes some great points....but what if I advised....forget the Holy Spirit...and just follow the Scriptures, because The Holy Spirit will AlWAYS and ONLY encourage us to do that which is in accord with Holy Writ.

Stop listening to the Holy Spirit....He will do his job. He does it automatically without us pleading for his guidance.....
We are instructed to follow the Scripture. He gives us the ability to rightly divide the Scripture...But the standard is Scripture itself. The HOLY SPIRIT will NEVER guide you to a point of view which differs from another Bible-Believers as long as you BOTH are taking your cues from Scripture.

 

[saturneptune]

Your post makes some great points....but what if I advised....forget the Holy Spirit...and just follow the Scriptures, because The Holy Spirit will AlWAYS and ONLY encourage us to do that which is in accord with Holy Writ.

Stop listening to the Holy Spirit....He will do his job. He does it automatically without us pleading for his guidance.....
We are instructed to follow the Scripture. He gives us the ability to rightly divide the Scripture...But the standard is Scripture itself. The HOLY SPIRIT will NEVER guide you to a point of view which differs from another Bible-Believers as long as you BOTH are taking your cues from Scripture.

I believe we are in agreement, and of course, one can be used to check the other. You bring up a very good point, there should never be any disagreement.

 

[HeirofSalvation]

I believe we are in agreement, and of course, one can be used to check the other. You bring up a very good point, there should never be any disagreement.

Yes....I wasn't questioning YOU personally of course...I was just making the point for others. We agree, the Holy Ghost will never guide us in any way which is contrary to Scripture!

 

[michael-acts17:11]

The Holy Spirit is very often used as an excuse for unScriptural religious beliefs. People use the "conviction" card as an escape from Biblical accountability. Modern Holy Spirit conviction is nothing more than personal feelings, guilt-tripping, & manipulable emotions. The Spirit will never contradict, detract, nor add to Scripture. Blaming the Spirit for causing us to believe in contradiction or addition to the Word is a sin against the Spirit. Pastors who do so are living a great lie. Believing themselves to be righteous men of God, they are merely self-righteous wolves seeking their own adoration & authority from the people of God.

 

[12strings]

Good post HOS, I won't repost the whole thing, just respond to one item I think you missed...

There are animals...and then, there is man who was created in the image of God. The difference? In a lot of ways, it's that we are "musical" and the animals aren't. :wavey:

Actually, the primary difference is that we aren't afraid of vacuum cleaners.:laugh:

 

[12strings]

From a thread in a Fundie forum:

Is the line between POV and "thou shalt not" a little gray at times?
For example, nowhere in the Bible does it say "Thou shalt not smoke" but preachers will use I Cor 6:19-20. Could this verse also be used when preaching against drinking?

As teens we were taught that dancing was wrong. A) close dancing could be s*xly stimulating B) fast dancing has too much of a beat to it.
Did Frank Garlock hit the mark with "The Big Beat, A Rock Blast"? Does music effect us?
Should we avoid music based on the lifestyle of the artist?
Movies - Back in the Day, you could always count on a movie being good if it was Walt Disney, but could you be sure of anything else - remember back then there was no rating system. Do we draw the line at G, GP, R - of course we would never go to an X movie. Can we watch an R rated movie - violence or otherwise- without it affecting us.
And of course there is playing cards. Sure "Go Fish" is harmless enough - but how long before you start playing for money - and then high stakes.
And what about gambling. If I have a dollar, does it make a difference if i spend it on a soda pop, (which is bad for my teeth) or on a lottery ticket?
Paul's statement in I Cor 8:13 "Wherefore, if meat make my brother to offend, I will eat no flesh while the world standeth, lest I make my brother to offend" - is that a command or just advice.
There are a thousand more examples - but the bottom line is "Where do you draw the line" and is that line different for each individual.

No Grey at all. If you violate something that God has revealed in scriptures to be sin, it is a sin...if you don't, it's not a sin.

Almost everything in this post is NOT necessarily a sin.

 

[Yeshua1]

Yes....I wasn't questioning YOU personally of course...I was just making the point for others. We agree, the Holy Ghost will never guide us in any way which is contrary to Scripture!

think what some Fundamentalistdo in error is they take what the Lord has convicted/convinced THEM over, and try to make preferences/convictions of a personal basis as applying to all other Christians

God might have told you to thro wout the TV set, but would not see that binding on all in order to be "good christians" for example!!

 

[michael-acts17:11]

think what some Fundamentalistdo in error is they take what the Lord has convicted/convinced THEM over, and try to make preferences/convictions of a personal basis as applying to all other Christians

God might have told you to thro wout the TV set, but would not see that binding on all in order to be "good christians" for example!!

I would not assume that they are acting under the "conviction" of the Spirit. No where in Scripture does the Spirit give contradictory "convictions" to people. It does; however, say that spiritually weak brethren focus on "sins" that are not sin & cannot handle the meat of the Word. You nailed it with the word "preferences". They sell their preferences for Biblical doctrine.

 

[saturneptune]

The Holy Spirit is very often used as an excuse for unScriptural religious beliefs. People use the "conviction" card as an escape from Biblical accountability. Modern Holy Spirit conviction is nothing more than personal feelings, guilt-tripping, & manipulable emotions. The Spirit will never contradict, detract, nor add to Scripture. Blaming the Spirit for causing us to believe in contradiction or addition to the Word is a sin against the Spirit. Pastors who do so are living a great lie. Believing themselves to be righteous men of God, they are merely self-righteous wolves seeking their own adoration & authority from the people of God.

That is not true. The Holy Spirit is the same God as He was at Creation. Genesis 1:3. Why would modern times make Him an excuse for unScriptural beliefs. Baloney. There is no such thing a modern Holy Spirit conviction. If someone is using the HS for a license to sin, then there is no Holy Spirit there in the first place. I believe if you read the series of posts, you will see that Scripture and Holy Spirit conviction is stated many times that they must agree. Your last sentence sounds exactly what a Pharisee would say as he was praying with his eyes squinted open to see who was watching.

 

[Yeshua1]

That is not true. The Holy Spirit is the same God as He was at Creation. Genesis 1:3. Why would modern times make Him an excuse for unScriptural beliefs. Baloney. There is no such thing a modern Holy Spirit conviction. If someone is using the HS for a license to sin, then there is no Holy Spirit there in the first place. I believe if you read the series of posts, you will see that Scripture and Holy Spirit conviction is stated many times that they must agree. Your last sentence sounds exactly what a Pharisee would say as he was praying with his eyes squinted open to see who was watching.

Think that at times the Spirit has convicted someone that this is sin to them as behaviour, for example, someone who used to heavily drink cannot keep booze in the refrigerator, but problem is that person might go to other saints homes to check what in their refrigerator, in order to amke sure the others are staying 'Holy!"
So that person was doing the right thing for himself, but erred when he projected that ALL chrsitians must had the same conviction, and need to make sure they pass the inspection test!

 

[michael-acts17:11]

That is not true. The Holy Spirit is the same God as He was at Creation. Genesis 1:3. Why would modern times make Him an excuse for unScriptural beliefs. Baloney. There is no such thing a modern Holy Spirit conviction. If someone is using the HS for a license to sin, then there is no Holy Spirit there in the first place. I believe if you read the series of posts, you will see that Scripture and Holy Spirit conviction is stated many times that they must agree. Your last sentence sounds exactly what a Pharisee would say as he was praying with his eyes squinted open to see who was watching.

Me thinks you misunderstood me. Modern-day pharisees claim Holy Spirit conviction as justification for unScriptural standards & rules. I condemn men claiming "conviction" in areas of preference & self-righteousness. No squinting, but watching the wolves among God's people with eyes wide-open.

 

[Yeshua1]

Me thinks you misunderstood me. Modern-day pharisees claim Holy Spirit conviction as justification for unScriptural standards & rules. I condemn men claiming "conviction" in areas of preference & self-righteousness. No squinting, but watching the wolves among God's people with eyes wide-open.

Yes, in that God 'told me to stop doing that, or start doing that", and now all of us have to do it just the same way in order to be 'spiritual!"