Today's Ten Commandment Debate

[BobRyan]

Since this is a current events topic AND a spicey topic for debate on God's Law being abolished rather than written on the tablets of the human heart -- I am starting this thread.

Eric brought this up recently and I think it makes a good launching point for the subject.

Eric said --

The people complaining about the "assault" on the 10 Commandments today need to realize this, as most of them do not keep the 4th; and a Barna poll suggested that many of these conservatives could not even remember all of them! Yet they are trying to push them on a secular non-Christian society, when that will do them no good if they are not saved. Even in the past when the commandments hung on more walls, people did not follow them. (Following the "letter" so much, they didn't realize things such as racism violated the intent of the Law, but thought that only sexual immorality and lack of belief of God were sins).

When prayer was in public school not EVERY child was a saint - not EVERY child prayed. But that prayer still served as a level of restraint, morality and perspective as can easily be seen in the comparison of teens today vs then -- in school!

The idea that God's Word "makes no difference" if everyone exposed to it - is not a saint -- has never been proven true.

The UNIT of Ten is mentioned and identified By God as "The TEN Commandments" not "THE 600 commandments" - yet there are numerous efforts to cloud this over as if there IS no unique distinction for the TEN - made by God Himself.

However as pointed out in Deut 5 when God SPOKE these TEN and then WROTE these Ten on tablets of stone -- "HE added No More"

So why are people who reject the Ten Commandments - wanting them to be available?

If those who are promoting God's TEN Commandments ARE not opposed to them for "real" then are they using D.L. Moody's logic to support them?

Recall the many posts here quoting D.L. Moody's strong support for ALL TEN of God's TEN commandments.

 

[Eric B]

This has nothing to do with the discussion over the 10 vs. 613. Those in politics who are trying to get rid of the 10 commandments are not arguing that they have been abolished by Christ, and they are not even thinking about the entire set of 613! Most do not believe in God at all, or at least believe "religion" is a personal matter only and should not be imposed on anyone. This is understandable, as they do not know God, so what is the point in trying to get them to obey His commandments, as if that alone will save them. You can say that it "restrains" or otherwise influences people; and good. But this influence is still an outward appearance. We do not see what is in people's hearts, and that is where the sin lies. This whole thing centers on children: they looked so moral in the past, while adults committed all sorts of wickedness, with the 10 Commandments right up on the wall above them. Once again, they had no clue that racism was a form of murder, as defined by Jesus. It certainly violated the second of the two commandments, and as James then links them, the first as well (James 3:9)
But it's only when the KIDS started rebelling en masse, in the late 50's and onward, and then the sexual revolution, that people were alarmed and realized there was a problem. Then, came the fingers of blame pointing everywhere: communism, atheism/evolution, rock music, European enlightenment intellectuals, liberals, and even the Jews! Everywhere, that is, except the sin within! So then the chant became "we were a good nation when we had the Commandments, but you liberals ruined that, and caused us to fall". It's all human pride, with two classes of people; the good traditional American Christians, and everyone else; the "sinners" or "dogs" of the world, much like the Pharisees of the NT looked at the gentiles.
Where in the past, the people HEARD the Word, but did not DO it; today, people want to be "consistent", and say that since we cannot DO it, why even "hear" it?

This has nothing to do with the 613, or the abolition of OT ceremonial (non-universal moral/spiritual) aspects of the Law. The conservative Christians who push for the 10 commandments would generally agree that only 9 of them are universal, or they would take Moody's route of saying that the fourth is now Sunday. (as I said, according to Barna, many could not even name all of the 10!) But neither of those approaches is keeping the literal sabbath, so why appeal to oneover the other?

 

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by Eric B:
This has nothing to do with the discussion over the 10 vs. 613. Those in politics who are trying to get rid of the 10 commandments are not arguing that they have been abolished by Christ, and they are not even thinking about the entire set of 613!

Hence the new thread.

Those defending the Ten Commandments may have actual value for them as does D.L. Moody.

Agreed?

IN Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

But this influence is still an outward appearance. We do not see what is in people's hearts, and that is where the sin lies. This whole thing centers on children: they looked so moral in the past, while adults committed all sorts of wickedness, with the 10 Commandments right up on the wall above them. Once again, they had no clue that racism was a form of murder, as defined by Jesus. It certainly violated the second of the two commandments, and as James then links them, the first as well (James 3:9)

Here again is the argument that God's Word does not make a difference if EVERYONE is not a saint.

Notice that in the 60's the MAIN complaint from teachers was "Chewing gum, talking in class, not doing homework".

The top 10 list today does not go anywhere NEAR that realm. It stays with violence, abortion, drugs, crime, abuse ...

The idea that "it is all the same" is not born out in history.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Eric B]

Here again is the argument that God's Word does not make a difference if EVERYONE is not a saint.

My point is it is not "making a difference". But that "difference" (a slight moral influence) is NOT the Church's mission. America is not the Kingdom of God with Christians as its police. We are to spread the Gospel, and try to make a moral influence where possible, but our first mission is salvation. Without that, morality will not do any good, but in fact make people more rebellious (Rom.7), and thus bring more condemnation.

Notice that in the 60's the MAIN complaint from teachers was "Chewing gum, talking in class, not doing homework".

The top 10 list today does not go anywhere NEAR that realm. It stays with violence, abortion, drugs, crime, abuse ...

Once again, only because the KIDS started rebelling en masse, that people were alarmed and realized there was a problem. Before God, this is NO DIFFERENT from saying "that person over there kills, and I only had consensual sex with that person I was not married to".
Kids also looked at their parents, statesmen, MINISTERS, preach morality to them, and then preach hatred to others for the color of their skin. Sexism was rampant as well. Many times, these authority figures were not even moral (sexually, stealing, killing, lying, etc) themselves. And I'm not talking a few "well, everyone was not an angel" instances; but these things were RAMPANT as is admitted by many now; the only difference was it was COVERED UP more. As some things got worse, a lot of this were cleaned up as well. That does not make up for the morality that was lost, but then neither does the morality of the past make up for all the other types of sin thast occurred back then either. Comparing both eras, it pretty much balance out, and points to a mankind made in God's image, but fallen in sin; a mixture of good and evil. If you want to judge by Law, then to fail in one point is to fail in the whole thing, and all of man's generations since Adam is EQUALLY condemned and lost. But if Christ came to save people from this curse, then that is what our message should be.
Saying one generation is better than another does nothing but exalt one group of people, and is no different from saying one race is better than another. Man IS "all the same", and to deny that is to deny the universality of the Fall. Meanwhile; it blinds us to the reality of sin, and God's redemption from it. We think we can justify ourselves just by having the 10 Commandments on the wall.

It has nothing to do with their "value". It is OUR deficiency that is the problem, not how much we try to force other people to obey them.

(One thing I liked about the Shepherd's Rod Message is that they pointed out that the SDA's were falling into some of the same political jargon and fearmongering as the very [sundaykeeping] "American Protestantism" they criticized as the second beast.)

 

[BobRyan]

History does not support your "made no difference" view.

The church will continually promote Christian values and morals in society - becoming "more like atheists" has never been the solution to any of society's problems.

One can choose to turn a blind eye to the decaying moral conditions that accompanies the rejection of all that America claimed to believe about God -- but the history of that demise will be obvious to all as it already is today.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

The point of this quote is not to debate the 4th commandment but rather to show that in the commandment most people love to attack - even there the argument is made for how it affects daily life in America.

http://www.fbinstitute.com/moody/The_TenCommandments_Text.html


Fundamental Baptist Institute
http://www.fbinstitute.com/

presents


THE TEN COMMANDMENTS

BY THE
DWIGHT L. MOODY
The Ten Commandments:
Exodus 20:2-17

.
The Fourth Commandment
Remember the Sabbath Day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: for in six days the LORD made heaven and Earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath Day, and hallowed it.
THERE HAS BEEN an awful letting-down in this country regarding the Sabbath during the last twenty-five years, and many a man has been shorn of spiritual power, like Samson, because he is not straight on this question. Can you say that you observe the Sabbath properly? You may be a professed Christian: are you obeying this commandment? Or do you neglect the house of God on the Sabbath day, and spend your time drinking and carousing in places of vice and crime, showing contempt for God and His law? Are you ready to step into the scales? Where were you last Sabbath? How did you spend it?

I honestly believe that this commandment is just as binding today as it ever was. I have talked with men who have said that it has been abrogated, but they have never been able to point to any place in the Bible where God repealed it. When Christ was on earth, He did nothing to set it aside; He freed it from the traces under which the scribes and Pharisees had put it, and gave it its true place.
"The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath." (Mark 2:27)
It is just as practicable and as necessary for men today as it ever was- in fact, more than ever, because we live in such an intense age.

The Sabbath was binding in Eden, and it has been in force ever since. The fourth commandment begins with the word remember, showing that the Sabbath already existed when God wrote this law on the tables of stone at Sinai. How can men claim that this one commandment has been done away with when they will admit that the other nine are still binding?

I believe that the Sabbath question today is a vital one for the whole country. It is the burning question of the present time. If you give up the Sabbath the church goes; if you give up the church the home goes; and if the home goes the nation goes. That is the direction in which we are traveling.

The church of God is losing its power on account of so many people giving up the Sabbath, and using it to promote selfishness.
.
HOW TBSERVE THE SABBATH
"Sabbath" means "rest," and the meaning of the word gives a hint as to the true way to observe the day. God rested after creation, and ordained the Sabbath as a rest for man. He blessed it and hallowed it. Remember the rest-day to keep it holy.

 

[BobRyan]

"I believe that the Sabbath question today is a vital one for the whole country. It is the burning question of the present time. If you give up the Sabbath the church goes; if you give up the church the home goes; and if the home goes the nation goes. That is the direction in which we are traveling. " D.L. Moody on the Ten Commandments

The claim has been made since the beginning that a decline in the Nation's willingness to honor God -- will result in moral decay.

To "pretend now" that the moral decay SEEN as that DECLINE has progressed - is NOT confirmation of the prediction - is to take a stand on sinking sand.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[TexasSky]

Do ministers violate the commandment when they work on Sunday? (Yes, it is a silly question. The reasoning of many people is silly. The Pharisees attacked Christ on the sabbath commandment too, Christ told them, basically, not to be so legalistic.)

The importance is that you take at least one day to rest and honor God. Not "which" day.

 

[BobRyan]

That was D.L. Moody's view. He argues that it is just as important to KEEP the commandment as when God gave it to Adam.

But then "he edits the commandment" much as you do.

Still that approach would lead us to the position taken by many today who seek to uphold the Ten Commandments and even object to atheist and liberal attempts to banish them from the courtroom.

(Please note - the Ten Commandments are ALL OVER the Supreme Court house - both INSIDE the main courtroom AND on the walls and doors outside the courtroom. So there is more than a little hypocracy in their forbidding other courts the same privilege)

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Eric B]

History does not support your "made no difference" view.

It's not so much about "no difference", but History DOES support the view that man and his society is equally sinful in every age. If you don't think so, then you should go back into American history as a black, Indian, woman, Jew, children under domineering fathers; Christians under domineering preachers scaring everyone with hellfire (even if they are supposedly saved), 7th day sabbath keeper in Puritan lands, where Sunday is held as the sabbath, and violation of the law is punishable by death.
You SDA's talk so much about some future "national Sunday Law"; but it is in your "godly American past" that such laws existed, (founded on the theology of people like Moody) and in this "ungodly present", that pluralism has led to the liberty that allows your church to exist and worship God according to the dictates of your conscience.
If you argue that society is becoming so ungodly compared to the past, then how will some "sunday Law" ever be passed in the first place? Will society become "godly" again? No; but perhaps Christians will fight to try to make it "godly" again, and EG WHITE taught that this was what would lead to that national Sunday Law in the first place! It is based on this that the Shepherd's Rod points out how the SDA has fallen prey to the Sundaykeepers by getting mixed up iin this whole "American Christianity" thing, with its rabid fears of the various forms of leftism.

The church will continually promote Christian values and morals in society - becoming "more like atheists" has never been the solution to any of society's problems.

Who said anything about "becoming like atheists". You are reading things that I have not said.
What we are to is to preach the Gospel, which of course will point people to God's commandments. Upholding some overromanticized past as the godly ideal is denying sin and justifying people by works of righteousness that are only outward at that. Once again, sin was only covered up in the past. That doesn't mean that less of it was there.

 

[BobRyan]

IN any case Eric you clearly oppose the view of Moody that argue FOR the Ten Commandments and hence it is very consistent of you to also oppose Christians today that would promote the Ten Commandments JUST AS WE SEE THEM at the Supreme Court!

My guess is that you ALSO oppose Christians today that support prayer in public -- JUST AS WE sponsor it in CONGRESS by act of LAW!

I may not agree with your reasoning and your turning a blind eye to the history of how this kind of retreat from Christianity is ruining the nation (JUST as Moody predicted) but you are consistent.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Eric B]

Forcing non-Christians to read the 10 Commandments and pray to a God they do not believe in is to no avail! "By the works of the Law shall no flesh be saved".
The only purpose of that is CONTROL, and you as an SDA who speak of America as the second beast of Rev. 13 that will act like the first beast by revoking liberty whould know better than anyone! If the people pushing for "traditional Christian America" or Moody's Christianity got their way, it would not be the 7th day sabbath that would be enforced, so what would you do then?
I don't oppose Christians who "Support" prayer, but I do caution against turning to a gospel of national works-righteousness, which is the same exact thing Israel in the time of Christ had fallen to! The WORLD was ruined at the Fall, not in 1960's America (as if we were the center of the world). The MANIFESTATION of sin changes from era to era, with it being more outward or covered up at different times, but it was always here. How in the world could you fall for this stuff?

 

[billwald]

Wasn't practical to put the 613 commandments on stone so God only outlined his social contract for Israel.

 

[BobRyan]

If the people pushing for "traditional Christian America" or Moody's Christianity got their way, it would not be the 7th day sabbath that would be enforced, so what would you do then?

The same thing responsible Christians did when slavery and the value of human life was an issue.

The same thing that responsible Christiand did when prohibition - alcoholism and the righ to privacy - was at issue...

Push for laws and ammendments that would ALLOW basic Christian values to exist and would PREVENT sin.

None of these examples (And that INCLUDES the display of the 10 commandments in public!!) affects a person's ability to worship God! NONE of them STOPS someone from worshipping God according to the dictate of their conscience!

The fact that SOME groups will eventually figure out a way to RETURN to the practices of the dark ages does not change our mission to promote common sense inclusion of Christian values into society.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by billwald:
Wasn't practical to put the 613 commandments on stone so God only outlined his social contract for Israel.

I do remember reading that in Hebrews 8 in that part of the New Covenent where God's Law is written on the heart - as 2Cor 3 on "TABLETS of the human heart".. I think He mentioned something about "it was too impractical to write more than 10 things down so I ADDED NO MORE".

I just don't remember where it was.

(Funny thing is - Moody did not mention that part about "could not find a way to get more on the stone tablets")

 

[BobRyan]

Deut 5
22 ""These words the LORD spoke to all your assembly at the mountain from the midst of the fire, of the cloud and of the thick gloom, with a great voice, and He added no more. He wrote them on two tablets of stone and gave them to me.

This is why James can quote from this law and call it "THE LAW OF LIBERTY" in James 2.

This is why Paul can say OF THIS LAW - that the 5th commandment is "the FIRST commandment with a PROMISE" Eph 6:3

In Christ,

Bob