Tony Palmer says Protestant Reformation is dead

[BobRyan]

I looked over this section of the board and did not see this subject thread - so I believe I am correct to post it as a new thread.


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Doug Batchelor shows an interesting video of Tony Palmer speaking to Charismatic Pastors - stating that the Protestant Reformation is essentially over because all of the 95 complaints of Luther have been accepted and changes made in the RCC as per Luther's complaints -once we imagine that they can all really be reduced down to just one complaint.

The one single issue is claimed as that of Eph 2:8-10 and getting everyone to agree to the language of Eph 2:8-10.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IsF2q-8ez08


I am not convinced that getting everyone to read Eph 2:8-10 was the sum total of the problem. IMHO all denominations were reading it - even the RCC - all along.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Bro. James]

Eph. 2:8-10 does not fit with paedobaptism and admixtures of grace and works. Never has, never will.

So, a little more cleaning in the sexual immorality department and everything will be O.K. in Rome?

Probably not.

Even so, come, Lord Jesus.

Bro. James

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Although every Christian denomination claims it believes 'righteousness by faith only' and keeps one day of worship only every week, these two 'Christian principles' are not 100% common among all Christians.

Both Roman Catholics and Calvinists, for example, claim they hold to the doctrine of salvation or righteousness by faith only.
And both Sunday keepers and Sabbath keepers claim they keep the ‘Bible- day’.

So there is division in Christianity even as concerns these two ‘common’ fundamental Christian principles.

What then is it ALL Christians are in TOTAL agreement on?

 

[Bro. James]

Exercising faith in one's faith and/or keeping days of the week does not make one righteous nor worthy of heaven--"not of works lest anyone should boast." A careful reading of Eph. 2:8-10 will show that even the faith to believe is a gift of God. We have nothing of merit to exercise, but rather are totally depraved, not mostly depraved, totally depraved. Our freewills are totally enslaved to our sin nature. This is a pivotal point in soteriology. It is not possible for one to truly repent until one realizes the totality of depravity. The true meaning of the Grace of God is missed when considered with an admixture of grace and works.

Most of nominal Christianity believes paedobaptism is the first step to salvation. Most of Christendom practices baptizing infants as part of salvation. This is works, works and more works. Now what? See Jude 3.

Even so, come, Lord Jesus.

Bro. James

 

[rsr]

First, let me admit I did not watch the video. I don't have sound here, so it would be pointless. I have looked at other accounts of the bishop's teachings, so I'm basing general observations on that.

Assuming that your summary is accurate, Palmer is simply inaccurate. The 95 Theses dealt with indulgences; they did not deal with the root difference between Catholics and Protestants: justification by faith alone. (Although that was far from the only difference.)

The Roman Catholic Church has not changed its position on justification. He is just flat-out wrong about that. Perhaps he had in the mind the Lutheran-Roman Catholic Joint Declaration on Justification of 1999; while there is disagreement over exactly what it accomplished, it seems to embody both traditions' understanding of justification without admitting that either is correct -- or wrong. The practical effect, if I understand it, is that both sides agree not to anathemize each other over justification.

The Vatican, however, has made it clear that the Canons of Trent remain in full force (except that it agrees that the Lutheran dogma of justification is not reason to bad-mouth the Lutherans anymore.) The Canons -- and the catechism -- make it clear that the Roman Catholic Church has retained its traditional teaching on justification.

Now, on a practical level, Palmer is close to a truth: The Protestant Reformation seems to have run out of steam because most of its denominations seem to have little real interest in theological differences. It seems that culture (this is the way we do things) has more influence than historic disagreements over doctrine and dogma.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Exercising faith in one's faith and/or keeping days of the week does not make one righteous nor worthy of heaven--"not of works lest anyone should boast." A careful reading of Eph. 2:8-10 will show that even the faith to believe is a gift of God. We have nothing of merit to exercise, but rather are totally depraved, not mostly depraved, totally depraved. Our freewills are totally enslaved to our sin nature. This is a pivotal point in soteriology. It is not possible for one to truly repent until one realizes the totality of depravity. The true meaning of the Grace of God is missed when considered with an admixture of grace and works.

Most of nominal Christianity believes paedobaptism is the first step to salvation. Most of Christendom practices baptizing infants as part of salvation. This is works, works and more works. Now what? See Jude 3.

Even so, come, Lord Jesus.

Bro. James

Sure, So these are two more things Christianity is split over. You and I believe concerning salvation in total depravity; others do not.

You believe against paedobaptism, I do not even believe in water-baptism, only in the Baptism of Jesus the Anointed. Therefore baptism is become a bone of contention in Christianity.

There is something else though there does not exist a bone of contention in Christianity.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

First, let me admit I did not watch the video. I don't have sound here, so it would be pointless. I have looked at other accounts of the bishop's teachings, so I'm basing general observations on that.

Assuming that your summary is accurate, Palmer is simply inaccurate. The 95 Theses dealt with indulgences; they did not deal with the root difference between Catholics and Protestants: justification by faith alone. (Although that was far from the only difference.)

The Roman Catholic Church has not changed its position on justification. He is just flat-out wrong about that. Perhaps he had in the mind the Lutheran-Roman Catholic Joint Declaration on Justification of 1999; while there is disagreement over exactly what it accomplished, it seems to embody both traditions' understanding of justification without admitting that either is correct -- or wrong. The practical effect, if I understand it, is that both sides agree not to anathemize each other over justification.

The Vatican, however, has made it clear that the Canons of Trent remain in full force (except that it agrees that the Lutheran dogma of justification is not reason to bad-mouth the Lutherans anymore.) The Canons -- and the catechism -- make it clear that the Roman Catholic Church has retained its traditional teaching on justification.

Now, on a practical level, Palmer is close to a truth: The Protestant Reformation seems to have run out of steam because most of its denominations seem to have little real interest in theological differences. It seems that culture (this is the way we do things) has more influence than historic disagreements over doctrine and dogma.

<<<Reformation seems to have run out of steam because most of its denominations seem to have little real interest in theological differences. It seems that culture (this is the way we do things) has more influence than historic disagreements over doctrine and dogma.>>>

This o so TRUE!!

This is what now a days has become THE determining factor as HOW TO TRANSLATE THE SCRIPTURES for all the different cultures on earth, so that all MAY COME TO THE SAME FAITH!

And in ONE aspect without a doubt ALL Christianity HAS become UNITED without the smallest visible crack.

As far as the Word of God in the hands of EVERY man, now that I come to think of it, the ideal has been REACHED. Today one would find NO differences even in ostensibly superficial wording and meaning in Scripture whether Turkish, United Kingdom English or American English, Afrikaans or Xosa or WHICHEVER tongue spoken on earth TODAY. (Because of course there is ONE POWER behind all and every Translation published in the age of the "increase in knowledge" since the twentieth century.)

Now in this mode the focus is falling on that SINGLE something there exists NO dividedness in all of Christiandom of our present day -- something that has been the case in a remarkably UNCHANGED situation for centuries and thousands of years.

Yea, if ever there was a binding-together singleness of faith, it has been it. WHAT IS IT? (Not what might it be; IT IS!)

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

I looked over this section of the board and did not see this subject thread - so I believe I am correct to post it as a new thread.


================================

Doug Batchelor shows an interesting video of Tony Palmer speaking to Charismatic Pastors - stating that the Protestant Reformation is essentially over because all of the 95 complaints of Luther have been accepted and changes made in the RCC as per Luther's complaints -once we imagine that they can all really be reduced down to just one complaint.

The one single issue is claimed as that of Eph 2:8-10 and getting everyone to agree to the language of Eph 2:8-10.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IsF2q-8ez08


I am not convinced that getting everyone to read Eph 2:8-10 was the sum total of the problem. IMHO all denominations were reading it - even the RCC - all along.

in Christ,

Bob

I am sorry to say, but Pastor Doug does not seem to grasp where the REAL oneness in Christianity for very long has existed and where in your and my own day the SCRIPTURES HAVE NOW, BEEN CONFORMED so that there shall be NO obstacle in anti-Christ's advance upon THE REAL CHRISTIAN TRUTH. All Christianity will UNITE // already is united against ITSELF AND AGAINST THE TRUTH it supposedly represents ---the truth and the basis of all BIBLE AND GOSPEL truth it supposedly represents.

 

[Reformed]

I suppose it depends on your own personal reality. If you believe the Reformation is dead, then you probably attend a church that does not put much stock in the historic truths that were re-discovered during that period. If, however, you attend a church that holds Reformation truths in high regard then you will probably be of a different opinion.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

The first 'angel' was the witness of the Lamb and the resurrected saints of Revelation 14:1-5.

The second angel's message was that of the first century apostolic Church of Revelation 14:6-7.

The third angel's message was the Reformation of the 15th and 16th centuries UNTIL THE END, Revelation 14:8-13.

Next will be the Son of Man with sickle in his hand upon a cloud coming to reap the earth.... Revelation 14:14-20.

But before the end.... “These are the two olive trees and the two candlesticks standing before God on the earth”—the Scriptures. “When they shall have FINISHED their Testimony” when “the second woe is past and behold, the third (and last) woe (the Return of Christ) COMETH QUICKLY and the SEVENTH angel sounded.” Revelation 11:4,7,14,15.

“….in the days of the voice of the SEVENTH (and last) angel (near the end) when he shall begin to (finally) sound (that) the mystery of God should be FINISHED … he said: Thou must prophesy AGAIN before MANY peoples and nations and tongues and kings.” Revelation 10:7-11.

 

[BobRyan]

In response to the list of issues noted below - some have said that such a list of errors is not believed by the RCC or hopefully was never believed by the RCC.

Wonderful!

So then it is "easy to see" how such a list of erroneous beliefs would NOT be approved of by most Protestants -- if even Catholics today repudiate them.

And then how "Wonderful" it would be were the RCC itself to admit that these doctrines below are all errors and that they do not condone them at all and either never did - or never should have.

How "Odd" then that this is NOT what is actually happening today in real life.


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So, what do you think is the problem or problems?

Teaching that divides Protestant vs Catholic denominations.

1. Mariolatry.
2. Confecting the Body and blood of Christ.
3. Indulgences.
4. Purgatory.
5. Prayers to the dead.
6. Claims to infallibility
7. Persecution of dissenters
8. Bible burning
9. Reliance on tradition rather than testing it against the Bible as the final rule of all faith and doctrine. Sola Scriptura
10. Protestants appeal to Christ alone as the source of salvation so then not the RCC.
11 Protestants appeal to Faith alone not magic sacraments - enables the lost to accept the Gospel, enter into the New Covenant, receive the graces found in the Gospel, be born again, forgiven of sins etc.




And for many Protestants today -

1. The use of images in worship is objected to .
2. Claiming that the New Covenant is confined to the Catholic Mass
3. Priests with magic powers to confect Christ and forgive sins (powers that are retained supposedly even if the priest is defrocked).
4. Authority of the Papacy -- denied by many/most Protestants.

And I have one or two others I suppose.

And of course I would not want to forget that bit about the Protestant opposition to the supposedly infallible ecumenical council of Lateran IV calling for "extermination" of heretics and outlining civil penalties for any governing body that fails to comply.



Even - EWTN's Dr. William Carroll admitted that men such as Billy Graham would be burned alive if they were to preach in the dark ages - what they preached in the 20th century.

 

[Bro. James]

A dumb observation: holy see and daughters (reformers of Rome) are guilty of persecuting dissenters. The churches of The Lord have always dissented and have never participated in such things. See Book of Acts for the description and mission of: The Way. Foxes Book of Martyrs is another good read.

Now what?

Even so, come, Lord Jesus.

Bro. James

 

[Yeshua1]

I looked over this section of the board and did not see this subject thread - so I believe I am correct to post it as a new thread.


================================

Doug Batchelor shows an interesting video of Tony Palmer speaking to Charismatic Pastors - stating that the Protestant Reformation is essentially over because all of the 95 complaints of Luther have been accepted and changes made in the RCC as per Luther's complaints -once we imagine that they can all really be reduced down to just one complaint.

The one single issue is claimed as that of Eph 2:8-10 and getting everyone to agree to the language of Eph 2:8-10.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IsF2q-8ez08


I am not convinced that getting everyone to read Eph 2:8-10 was the sum total of the problem. IMHO all denominations were reading it - even the RCC - all along.

in Christ,

Bob

Rome sees itself as THE only true church, that we are saved/rgenerated by combo package of water Baptism and all the Sacraments of Grace, papacy from God to govern the faithful, ONLY Rome onterpretes bible rightly...

RCC as much a Christian church as Mormons/JW/SDA are!

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

IN WHAT do you SEE, 'perfect harmony' in ALL Christiandom?

There is only one 'doctrine' if you like, or 'aspect' or 'fundamental' ---call it what you like. What is it?

 

[Bro. James]

No harmony expected: See Jude 3, then the whole letter.

One doctrine: Eph. 2: 8-10.

There are two basic kinds of Christians: nominal and true disciples. The nominal are the religious powers that be; the true have been persecuted since the beginning--mostly by the nominal. Yep, Christians killing Christians. How can this be? The religions of this world hate Jesus and His disciples.

Even so, come, Lord Jesus.

Bro. James

 

[Yeshua1]

IN WHAT do you SEE, 'perfect harmony' in ALL Christiandom?

There is only one 'doctrine' if you like, or 'aspect' or 'fundamental' ---call it what you like. What is it?

NONE in Christiandom, as that has BOTH the whaeats/tares in it, among TRUE Christianity, the one essential truth is "Jesus is the Lord!"

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

NONE in Christiandom, as that has BOTH the whaeats/tares in it, among TRUE Christianity, the one essential truth is "Jesus is the Lord!"

A good answer. and true indeed.

Nevertheless there is one WICKEDNESS in which the whole of Christianity // Christiandom believes and acts AS ONE: and that is the false basis of its WHOLE life on the LIE that the First Day of the week was the day on which Jesus rose from the dead.

There is and has been NO recognised dissenting or objecting voice, ever.

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

Nevertheless there is one WICKEDNESS in which the whole of Christianity // Christiandom believes and acts AS ONE: and that is the false basis of its WHOLE life on the LIE that the First Day of the week was the day on which Jesus rose from the dead.

There is and has been NO recognised dissenting or objecting voice, ever.

So ... Jesus' resurrection was not on Sunday? Oh-kay ...

 

[Yeshua1]

A good answer. and true indeed.

Nevertheless there is one WICKEDNESS in which the whole of Christianity // Christiandom believes and acts AS ONE: and that is the false basis of its WHOLE life on the LIE that the First Day of the week was the day on which Jesus rose from the dead.

There is and has been NO recognised dissenting or objecting voice, ever.

Sabbath day given to isreal, NO NT support that it was passed along to those of us now under the new and better Covenant!

 

[DHK]

IN WHAT do you SEE, 'perfect harmony' in ALL Christiandom?

There is only one 'doctrine' if you like, or 'aspect' or 'fundamental' ---call it what you like. What is it?

I don't see your persistent question as germane to the title of this thread:

Tony Palmer says Protestant Reformation is dead

Please stop trying to derail this thread.