Total Depravity of OT saints

[BobRyan]

Some have argued for the total depravity of the sinful nature - fallen mankind (from Romans 3:9-11 for example).

Some have argued that the OT saints were NOT actually born again. They claim these saints were saved by grace while dead sometime after Christ died on the cross -- but not while they were alive in OT times.

Sometimes that is the SAME person arguing both sides of that fence.

Question for such a person ...

#1. In Luke 16 Christ seems to make the case that you do not change sides after being dead.

We see the same point in Heb 9 "For it is appointed unto men ONCE to die and THEN comes the judgment".

#2. How does a sinful totally depraved person become a Heb 11 saint IN the OT while still nothing but a totally depraved person as in Rom 3:9-11???

#3. If you preach right actions, right living, faith for the unregenerate "old creation" then are you not denying the truth of Rom 3:9-11 "There is NONE who seeks after God NO NOT ONE"???


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On the other side of this coin are those who believe Heb 4 in truth that the ONE Gospel was fully effective in the OT just as it is in the New. "The Gospel was preached to us JUST AS IT WAS to them also" said Paul Heb 4:1

in Christ,

Bob

 

[billwald]

The Dutch side of reformed theology teaches that TD does not mean that every action of every person is always evil. It means that all human activity including the Church is tainted by sin.

 

[BobRyan]

So if we take an unregenerate person - will their sinful nature - while unregenerate be the saintly nature of those listed in Heb 11?

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

See my post 154 on the thread "An honest look at ..."

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

BR:

"How does a sinful totally depraved person become a Heb 11 saint IN the OT while still nothing but a totally depraved person as in Rom 3:9-11???"

GE:

The most sensible question you've asked so far. The answer is, by undeserving, grace - which is, by God choosing him, changing him, and establishing him in the faith of Jesus Christ, for ever.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

And this time, 'for ever', means exactly that, since we are chosen from everlasting in the Son to everlasting in the Son.

 

[BobRyan]

BR:

"How does a sinful totally depraved person become a Heb 11 saint IN the OT while still nothing but a totally depraved person as in Rom 3:9-11???"

GE:

The most sensible question you've asked so far. The answer is, by undeserving, grace - which is, by God choosing him, changing him, and establishing him in the faith of Jesus Christ, for ever.

It does not answer the question. The new birth is offerred by Grace -- the question is - is there such a thing as salvation without it?

Many have said "yes" -- we are exploring that idea here.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

It does not answer the question. The new birth is offerred by Grace -- the question is - is there such a thing as salvation without it?

Many have said "yes" -- we are exploring that idea here.

The new birth is not offered to be accepted or rejected by any who are naturally inclined to reject it and incapable of accepting it. It is given to and in those whom God sovereignly wills to give and affect it - hence, election.

 

[BobRyan]

Fortunately for us - you have only "you" as the text for that suggestion

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Fortunately for us - you have only "you" as the text for that suggestion

GE:

Fortunately I have the sure Word of God for that assurance.

 

[DQuixote]

What am I missing here? Total depravity of OT saints is an oxymoron. How can they be totally depraved and at the same time be a Saint? Positionally, you are either a Saint or you aren't. The opposite of being totally depraved is Sainthood.

 

[BobRyan]

What am I missing here? Total depravity of OT saints is an oxymoron. How can they be totally depraved and at the same time be a Saint? Positionally, you are either a Saint or you aren't. The opposite of being totally depraved is Sainthood.

Agreed. But some argue that the new birth did not exist before the Cross. (Which is in reality to argue that the Gospel itself did not save before the cross - in the view of all those who fully accept that the GOOD NEWS of the Gospel INCLUDES the good news of the NEW Birth).

So -- for those who argee that the sinful nature of man is depraved OT and NT state for mankind - and yet reject the Gospel truth of the New Birth pre-cross (no matter what Christ said in John 3 to the contrary) then the question is - what do you do with those "depraved saints" in Heb 11??

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

GE said
The new birth is not offered to be accepted or rejected by any who are naturally inclined to reject it and incapable of accepting it. It is given to and in those whom God sovereignly wills to give and affect it - hence, election.

Bob replies - noting the complete lack of Bible support for the wild suggestion above.

Fortunately for us - you have only "you" as the text for that suggestion

To which we get "crickets" -- no answer.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Bob replies - noting the complete lack of Bible support for the wild suggestion above.


To which we get "crickets" -- no answer.

In Christ,

Bob

GE:

To which we get the whole Bible for an answer in the affirmative; and many and great saints. Why should I answer you, like speaking to the lamp post in midday sunlinlight, why do I not see your light?

 

[BobRyan]

The non-answer "the whole Bible agrees with me but I have no text to give here that shows what I just stated to be true" as you have given above is the "crickets" being referenced in the previous quote sir.

Less smoke - more fire please.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

It so happens that I believe just what many able Christian men have taught from the Scriptures - in which teaching for centuries their chief opposition happened to be none other than anti-christ himself, the Roman Catholic Church. You place yourself on the side of whichever you want.