Total Depravity

[Baptist 4 the Lamb]

The Bible teaches man is a sinner by nature as a result of Adam's transgression. All men have sinned as a result of Adam's sin.

[Ps. 51:5] Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

[Rom. 5:12] Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

While it is true no man comes to Jesus unless drawn by the Father [John 6:44], he has to respond according to his own will. Spiritual death does not mean absolute bondage of the will, just as Christians being dead to sin are not completely incapable of sinning.

[Rom. 6:2] God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

Any Christian will testify to the fact he or she sins and comes short of the glory of God every day. Christians are dead to sin, but still sin. If Christians who are "dead to sin" still sin, why would any one say sinners who are "dead in trespasses and sins" will not come to Jesus unless they're dragged or forced? Is sinners' deadness to spiritual things any more absolute than the Christians’ deadness to sin who still commits sin? To be spiritually dead means to be separated from God.

Through His precious blood, Aaron

 

[Monergist]

IMHO, to be spiritually dead means to be spiritually dead. Dead men don't respond. Unless, like Lazarus, the Savior commands them to come to life --that's not exactly dragging and forcing,is it?

 

[rlvaughn]

Aaron, you might be interested in previous discussion of this topic found on "The T in the Tulip Doctrine."

 

[Christopher]

Aaron,

It'll be interesting to see you try to refute something such as Calvinism that is so plainly taught in God's word.

By His grace, Christopher

 

[tyndale1946]

If you don't believe in Total Depravity you should talk to Brother Saul/Paul as he was a firm believer and wrote many letters about it!... Do you honestly think we would claim a doctrine we couldn't defend?... Brother Glen

 

[Eladar]

You can defend anything as long as you get to determine what parts of the Bible are to be taken at face value and what parts are to be 'adjusted' so that you can give it its proper meaning.

I say that in jest, but also in truth.

Just because we are inbondaged to sin does not mean we have no understanding about what is correct. Just as those who have formally accepted Jesus Christ as lord are inslaved to sin, so is everyone else. Just as Christians know what is right, yet don't always carry it out, so can others. Just look at what Paul says in Romans 2.

Oops, I forgot, that is one of those parts that doesn't really mean what it appears to be saying.

 

[Frank]

Lamb:
I wish to repond to the first "Petal" of Calvinism. The doctrine of Calvinism teaches man is born a sinner. He is inclined to no good thing because he is depraved. What do the scriptures teach about this doctrine?
1. God made men right. Eccl.7:29. Solomon said, behold this only have I found, that God made man upright but they have sought out many inventions.
2 David Identifies when man sins.( Psalms 58:3). It is when they have cognitive ability in this passage it is verbal communication that indicates such.
3.Ezekiel teaches us that sin is an act.( Ezekiel 18:4). It is man consciously violating God's Law.
4. Jesus contradicts Toyal depravity.( Lk. 18:16). Jesus said," Suffer the little children to come unto me and forbid them not for of such is the Kingdom of Heaven. Calvinistic doctrine would change it to read suffer the little DEVILS to come unto me.
5. Jesus desires men to become as little children. ( Mat.18:3). Man will not inherit Heaven unless they do. Surely, Jesus is not teaching to be like the little "devils." I will look at the second petal next time.
Frank

 

[Pastor Larry]

Originally posted by Tuor:
Just because we are inbondaged to sin does not mean we have no understanding about what is correct.

Romans 3:10-12 as it is written, "THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE; THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS, THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD; 12 ALL HAVE TURNED ASIDE, TOGETHER THEY HAVE BECOME USELESS; THERE IS NONE WHO DOES GOOD, THERE IS NOT EVEN ONE."

Just as those who have formally accepted Jesus Christ as lord are inslaved to sin, so is everyone else.

Romans 6:6-7 knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin; for he who has died is freed from sin.

 

[Pastor Larry]

Originally posted by Frank:
1. God made men right.

Calvinism believes this; it is in Gen 1-2.

David Identifies when man sins.( Psalms 58:3).

David says that he was conceived in a sinful state, long before he had any cognitive ability.

3.Ezekiel teaches us that sin is an act.( Ezekiel 18:4). It is man consciously violating God's Law.

Calvinists agree with this. But sin is not limited to this. Furthermore, the sin nature is what is at issue. Man is born with a sin nature and he is dead in trespasses and sins. That is why he acts sinfully.

4. Jesus contradicts Toyal depravity.( Lk. 18:16). Jesus said," Suffer the little children to come unto me and forbid them not for of such is the Kingdom of Heaven. Calvinistic doctrine would change it to read suffer the little DEVILS to come unto me.

Why would Christ call little children devils because of depravity? This makes no sense. It is to twist the words of Christ.

5. Jesus desires men to become as little children. ( Mat.18:3).

Again, no Calvinist disagrees with this. This is speaking of the kind of faith that is necessary for salvation -- a total selfabandonment and commitment to the Father.

Some passages that contradict what you are saying is here listed:
Rom 3:10-17; Rom 8:1-13; Eph 2:1-3

 

[Ray Berrian]

Total depravity can be taught to uninformed people who are happy to look only at some verses. Yes, all sinners are responsible for their Adamic sin and sins of commission.

The Image of God was not fully lost by Adam's fall in the garden. Man to a much lesser extent than God still has human intelligence, a conscience, freedom of the will and has the capability to be convicted of his or her sinful ways. If the Image of God were totally lost to humankind, not even God could awaken a human being to his or her need of Christ. Without intelligence, conscience, and will--that body would not be called a human being.

An interesting and neglected study for Calvinists is found in John 1:9. Dr. Edwin A. Blum says, 'Christ give light to every man. This does not mean universal salvation, or general revelation or even inner illumination. Instead, it means that Christ as the Light shines {protizei} on each person either in salvation or in illuminating him with regard to his sin and coming judgment.'

Raymond E. Brown offers these ideas. 'Some think that this does not mean the light of revelation, but the spotlight of judgment, the pitiless, all-revealing light is not to be avoided. If John the Baptist witness was for all men, the sphere of enlightenment from the real Light can scarcely be less.'

Regards,

Dr. Berrian

 

[Pastor Larry]

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
Total depravity can be taught to uninformed people who are happy to look only at some verses.

Actually it can't be taught to anyone until their minds are opened by the Holy Spirit to the understanding of his word. But thanks for calling us uninformed. I am happy to look at all the verses. It seems that you are not since you skipped over the relevant passages I cited above.

YOu completely ignore the question Ray. Scripture is explicit and without qualification: There is none who understands; there is none who seeks God; all are dead in trespasses and sins. Yet your position seems to deny this. You must reconcile these two passages.

Simply citing it doesn't help and your citations do not really help much either since they don't make your point, IMO. Explain how, if Christ gave light to everyone, why no one understands.

Probably what is in view here is the objective revelation of Christ that came into the world. His manifestation is plain for all to see. However, most reject it because they love the darkness (John 3:19-20). Why do they love the darkness? Because their deeds are evil -- they are spiritually dead (Rom 3:10-17; Eph 2:1-3).

The Image of God was not fully lost by Adam's fall in the garden.

Not at issue. The point is that they have no ability to turn to to God. Their sin has totally affected them, even their will and desire (Rom 8).

And I think Raymond E. Brown is a Catholic is he not? If it is the Raymond Brown I am thinking of, he was regularly published the Catholic Quarterly and I found out the hard way when I cited him in a paper as a representative of the Evangelical position on hermeneutics.

[ April 12, 2002, 09:41 AM: Message edited by: Pastor Larry ]

 

[Frank]

Larry:
You have made several unsubstantiatied assertions in your post about total depravity.
1. All men are enslaved in sin. You site Romans 3:10-12 and Romans 6:6,7. Romans 3:12 indicates that those who HAVE GONE OUT OF THE WAY have been enslaved to sin. This reference goes back to the old testament and refers to the children of Israel who chose other gods rather than God. They made a CHOICE as the phrase " ALL GONE OUT OF THE WAY" indicates. One must be in the Way to go out of the way. Romans 6 is written as a reminder to the Christians in Rome about How they became Christians and what it meant. Romans 6: 1-3 dicusses,again , THEIR CHOICE. Man freely chooses to sin and to follow in Faith the teachings of Christ. In Romans 6: 17,18, the Bible says," But God be thanked you were the servants of sin, but( Here is the choice made)you have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine delivered you and being made free from sin ye became the servants of righteousness." This is the same language used in Hebrews 5:8,9, where Jesus OBEYED. He made a choice.
2. David was conceived in a sinful state before cognitive ability. NO PROOF. The Bible says this about your unsubstantiated assertion.Psalms 51:3 has the similar meaning as Job 31:18. Job said he had cared for widows from the womb. Surely, you are not going to assert that as an infant Job cared for widows? This phrase simply means human beings commence sinful activities at an early age. ( See Gen.8:21).
3. Sin is more than just transgressing law. NO PROOF. I Jn. 3:4 defines sin as the transgression law. This harmonizes with Ezekiel 18:4.
4. Total depravity requires one to be born in sin. This is what it is and how you have argued.Jesus teaches that accountable men( context of Lk. 18:16) become innocent or sinless like little children. Total depravity will not allow this. Therefore, The Calvinist would have to change what Christ said to fit his doctrine.THOSE WHO KN0W RIGHT AND WRONG ARE TO become converted and be like children.If Children are born in sin they are lost and doomed to hell.Are You now asserting that Jesus wants men to convert and be like children to go to HELL? ( LK. 18:16,Mat. 18:3).
Frank

 

[Pastor Larry]

Originally posted by Frank:
1. All men are enslaved in sin. You site Romans 3:10-12 and Romans 6:6,7. Romans 3:12 indicates that those who HAVE GONE OUT OF THE WAY have been enslaved to sin.

If you read the context of Rom 3, Paul is substantiating that all (Jews and Gentiles) are under sin. Romans 3:12 does indicate that all those who have gone out of the way are enslaved to sin. Rom 3:10-11 say that that is all. Rom 5 furthers reveals to us how we went “out of the way.” We did it in Adam. As for Rom 6 and the slavery to sin, I directly refuted your point about being enslaved to sin.

2. David was conceived in a sinful state before cognitive ability. NO PROOF.

I quoted the Scripture. That is all the proof we need. “Conception” is obviously before birth and David says that he was a sinner from that time. Job 31:18 does not appear to have any relevance here. To say that human being commence sinful activities at an early age is to state the obvious. The question is, why do they do this? The biblical answer is because they were born in sin. They are sinful from conception because all are sinful.

3. Sin is more than just transgressing law. NO PROOF. I Jn. 3:4 defines sin as the transgression law. This harmonizes with Ezekiel 18:4.

Again, the issue is a lack of understanding on your part. The perfect standard of righteousness is God’s character and actions. Anyone who falls short in any one manifestation of either is a sinner. It is not simply limited to cognitive, intentional choices. It is any lack of conformity.

4. Total depravity requires one to be born in sin. This is what it is and how you have argued.Jesus teaches that accountable men( context of Lk. 18:16) become innocent or sinless like little children. Total depravity will not allow this.

No Jesus never taught this. Jesus taught that depraved people must come to him with the faith of little children if they are to be saved. The only way that they can do this is through the supernatural enabling of the Father. You are right that total depravity will not allow this.

Scripture is clear – there is not one good thing man. He is utterly and totally sinful and unrighteousness before God. Because of his depravity he cannot and will not come to Christ. He does not want to come to Christ.

It is the words of Christ himself in John 6 that show that the Calvinist understanding of Scripture is proper. It is you that has contradicted the teaching of Christ.

 

[Ray Berrian]

Pastor Larry,

I agree with much of what you said about sinners not being able to come to Christ. I think also we agree, that the Holy Spirit is very active in their lives after they have heard the Gospel truth. Without His ministry toward sinners they will not realize the need to yield to Him.

Raymond E. Brown, S.S. is the author of the "The Anchor Bible Commentary." I cited him also in my 230 page dissertation. He is definitely a Catholic theologian and has some true and spiritual statements to make, just like Calvin and Arminius offered some good truths.

Dr. Berrian

 

[Frank]

Larry:
You simply ignored the arguements. Romans 3:23 simply states what I have previously posted. Men choose to sin, all men . (Romans 3:23). Yes, that includes all men. It does not say that all men are born and enslaved by sin in Romans 3:23? If so, Where? There is a difference so stated in Romans 6:17,18. The same language used in Psalms 51:5 as in Job 31:18. Did Job take care of widows as an infant? The context of both passages uses the same phrase with the with an active effect being present at the womb. One effect, as you assert, is Sin the other is taking care of widows.
I Jn. 3:4 states sin IS THE TRANSGRESSION OF LAW. You ignore the inspired definition. You have claimed there is something else inclusive in sin. If so, WHAT IS IT? And WHERE DOES GOD SO STATE?

Larry, people sin because they violate law.( I Jn. 3:4).Paul by inspiration says,"I had not known sin except the law said Thou shalt not covet." Paul learned about sin by the definition of law.
Luke 18:16 and Mat. 18:3 are spoken to adults as they are instructed to be converted to be come like little children. If children are born in sin, then Jesus is instructing them to become sinners. Jesus affirms that men are to become like children also in Jn. 3:3-5 in reference to being born again. Paul affirms when we are converted we are new creatures.(II Cor 5:7). The biblical evidence simply does not support your position.
Frank

 

[Pastor Larry]

Frank,

Romans 3:23 simply states what I have previously posted. Men choose to sin, all men . (Romans 3:23). Yes, that includes all men. It does not say that all men are born and enslaved by sin in Romans 3:23? If so, Where? There is a difference so stated in Romans 6:17,18.

Rom 3:23 was brought up by you. I didn’t say anything about it teaching that men were born in sin. Clearly they are but not because of that verse. The issue is “Why do men sin?” The answer is because they were born with a sin nature. Rom 16:17-18 clearly teaches that all men were enslaved to sin, something you previously denied. Here is your quote:

You have made several unsubstantiatied assertions in your post about total depravity.
1. All men are enslaved in sin.

You called this an unsubstantiated assertion. It clearly is not as Romans 6 tells us.

The same language used in Psalms 51:5 as in Job 31:18.

Job 31:18: umbeten imi anachnah
Ps 51:5 ubchmi’ yechmatini imi

As you can see from the transliterations, they do not use the same language. The only thing the same is “imi” – my mother. The point of the passage in Job is Job’s lifelong compassionate treatment of widows and orphans. “From my youth” is parallel with “from my mother’s womb.” It obviously refers to a lifelong pursuit. It is wholly unrelated to the sin issue addressed in Ps 51:5 where a completely different construct is used in a different text.

I Jn. 3:4 states sin IS THE TRANSGRESSION OF LAW. You ignore the inspired definition. You have claimed there is something else inclusive in sin. If so, WHAT IS IT? And WHERE DOES GOD SO STATE?

Sin is the transgression of the law. I did not ignore the inspired definition. What I have done is enlarge on the biblical idea of sin as the assertion of self over God, the lack of conformity to God in any way. Sinfulness is the problem, not just sin. I would recommend reading Strong or Erickson in their systematic theologies. They address this point very well with multitudes of Scripture to support it.

Luke 18:16 and Mat. 18:3 are spoken to adults as they are instructed to be converted to be come like little children. If children are born in sin, then Jesus is instructing them to become sinners.

What??? Jesus is discussing the manner in which one comes to him. In simplicity and childlike faith. He is not discussing their sinful nature. Read Matt 18:4: Whoever humbles himself as this little child … Clearly, when you single out a verse without reference to its context you miss the point of the passage. Christ was talking about an attitude of humility and submission that we come to Christ with.

 

[Frank]

Larry:
Romans 6:17,18 refers to a choice men make. men have two choices serve God or evil. ( Joshua 24:15, Mat. 6:24, John 8:44,45.) Men CHOOSE TO SIN. This is the correct Biblical answer,your uninspired expansion not withstanding.

2.Infants are in their youth.(Job31:18). If not when does one cease to be in his youth? Job 31:18 does read and I quote" and I have guided her from my mother's womb." The effect is different Sin (Psalms 51)and caring for widows (Job 31:18) but the time, WHEN, is the same infant from the womb.
Can one begin a lifelong pursuit to take care of widows from the womb( Infant).

3. Strong and Erickson are not inspired. Where in the inspired volume is your assertion for and "expanded definiton of sin."

4. In Mat and Luke, the context is talking about getting into the kingdom. There must be a CONVERSION.( Mat. 18:3). If children are born in sin as Calvinism so states,Jesus is indeed instructing adults to become like children , in the case of Calvinism, it would be to become sinners. Children are sinless and innocent and yes, humble. I do not miss the point.

Calvinism does by teaching total depravity.

Furthermore, if all are born in sin,( CALVINISM) then there is no conversion, as those to whom he is speaking are sinners as well as the children he uses to teach this lesson. There would be no new birth.( Jn. 3:3-5).

Frank

 

[Pastor Larry]

Originally posted by Frank:
Romans 6:17,18 refers to a choice men make. men have two choices serve God or evil. ( Joshua 24:15, Mat. 6:24, John 8:44,45.) Men CHOOSE TO SIN. This is the correct Biblical answer,your uninspired expansion not withstanding.

Of course men choose to sin. They make that choice because they are depraved.

Can one begin a lifelong pursuit to take care of widows from the womb( Infant).

Ever heard the phrase "knee high to a grasshopper." It is called a figure of speech and it is equivalent to what Job used. Furthermore, you said that Job 31 and Ps 51 used the same phrase and you were clearly wrong. Ps 51:5 teaches that David was conceived as a sinner. You deny that.

3. Strong and Erickson are not inspired. Where in the inspired volume is your assertion for and "expanded definiton of sin."

[/ab]As I said, Strong and Erickson do a very good job at showing this point from Scripture by referring to the various passages. Don't be lazy. If you want to be an expert, then do your homework. Erickson spends 10-12 pages if I remember correctly going through all the words used in Scripture for sin and showing sin's nature. I am not going to reproduce all that evidence here. There is not enough space.

[qb]4. In Mat and Luke, the context is talking about getting into the kingdom. There must be a CONVERSION.( Mat. 18:3). If children are born in sin as Calvinism so states,Jesus is indeed instructing adults to become like children , in the case of Calvinism, it would be to become sinners. Children are sinless and innocent and yes, humble. I do not miss the point.

Christ is referring to the "humility" of children as it says in teh context. He is not referring to sinlessness. This is clear from teh context. You are ignoring the words of Christ himself as he explains what he means.

Furthermore, if all are born in sin,( CALVINISM) then there is no conversion, as those to whom he is speaking are sinners as well as the children he uses to teach this lesson. There would be no new birth.( Jn. 3:3-5).

This takes the cake. If all are born in sin then there is no conversion???? What in the world??? It is because we are born in sin that men need conversion.

 

[Frank]

Larry:
You have asserted that Psalms 51:5 teaches total depravity. You do so in the face of biblical evidence that teaches such is not the case. ( I Jn.3:4,Romans 7:7,Romans 4:15, Ezekiel 18:4,II Jn.9,10, Jude 4, II Tim.4:3, Deut. 30 :15-18).
Is is strange that you make such an assertion, yet you do not know the biblical definiton of that which you claim all men are born in... SIN. You then site strong and erickson instead of biblical evidence for the definition of sin.
As for the text of Mat. 18:3 and Luke 18:16, I have simply made IMPLICATIONS based on total depravity and original sin. You do not like it, but neither would I if I had to uphold such false teaching with a passage that does not state the doctrine. you assert it does, but the rest of the evidence teaches you are in error.
Men choose to sin and do right of their own free will.( Mat. 7:21-26).
Frank

 

[Pastor Larry]

Originally posted by Frank:
You have asserted that Psalms 51:5 teaches total depravity. You do so in the face of biblical evidence that teaches such is not the case. ( I Jn.3:4,Romans 7:7,Romans 4:15, Ezekiel 18:4,II Jn.9,10, Jude 4, II Tim.4:3, Deut. 30 :15-18).

The longer you talk the less sense you make. I would stop while you are only slightly behind. These verses you list do not address the issue of total depravity. You can list a bunch of texts but that does not prove your point. You must deal with the Scripture that proves you wrong ... like 1 King 8:46 that asserts that there is no one who does not sin. Why do people sin? Because of their sin nature. You have no way to account for passages such as Rom 3:10-17; Eph 2:1-3 and many others.

Is is strange that you make such an assertion, yet you do not know the biblical definiton of that which you claim all men are born in... SIN. You then site strong and erickson instead of biblical evidence for the definition of sin.

If you read Strong and Erickson you will realize why I do not cite all the evidence here. There is simply too much. You wouldn't read it on here anyway. The simple fact is that God is the standard by which entrance to God's presence is judged. If you are not perfect as your Father in heaven is perfect, you will not enter heaven. God's perfection extends to all areas ... mind, will, emotions, being, etc. Our sin likewise extends to all areas. Therefore, sin is any lack of conformity to God in any area. This definition is ably defended and supported from Scripture by those who are willing to study. Those who are not will continue to believe as you do.

As for the text of Mat. 18:3 and Luke 18:16, I have simply made IMPLICATIONS based on total depravity and original sin.

You drew faulty conclusions. Implications by definition have their root in true meaning (see Hirsch). An implication cannot be based in a false meaning. Christ told us what he meant. You have denied it and constructed a false theology based on that.

Men choose to sin and do right of their own free will.( Mat. 7:21-26).

So what does Rom 3:10-12 mean when it says that no one seeks God, no one understands? What does Rom 8 mean when it says that the unsaved are "unable to please God" (Paul's words, not mine). No one of their own free will chooses to do right. It is impossible because their will is controlled by their sinful nature.

You and I have been through this enough. You have had opportunity to make your points and I have responded to them. Those reading along have the gyst of both arguments and can make their decisions based on what has been said. We will discontinue this line of discussion. Make your last comments and move on to another topic.