Total Depravity

Romans 3:9-20 is one of the best places to find the doctrine of total depravity. Romans 8:5-8 and 1Cor2 last 5 vs are great places as well.

This is one thing that both Arminan and Calvinist posts "Can" get behind 100%.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Why do you deny that God created in us the attribute of Free will? An attribute being that which is true of us. Free will is not the same as desire or longing, or persuasion. Free will is that innate capacity to choose from choices, and act upon the choice.

Since the fall took place, there has been a vacancy in the make up of man, and a longing to fill the void. Man seeks to fill that void in whatever manner his mind can conceive. Since post-fall man's mind cannot conceive of God any more than "there is a God somewhere, there's just got to be!" Man's longings are for that which is missing, and he is seeking it in all the wrong places.

Then, God brings himself to man, in the form of man, to present His new covenant with man that is based on BELIEF, which is an inate ability that God gave to his human creation, along with the ability to act on what he believes. We know that as 'Free Will'. Then God caused the events surrounding his only begotten Son to be recorded in books and letters that we call, in their collective form, the Bible or The Holy Scriptures. The Bible has been handed down, generation to generation through an organization called the church. The message contained in the bible has been delivered to man orally and in script for two thousand years. The message may be delivered by man, but its content is quickened in man by the Holy Spirit of God.

Being persuaded that the content of the message is clear and worthy of believing, man becomes persuaded that Jesus is the Son of God, the Messiah. So now, the one who hears and believes, confesses his belief thereby receiving eternal life.

The one who hears and does not believe, passively rejects the gospel message thereby condemning himself to eternal damnation.

In both cases, the Holy Spirit made the word available, one believed the other did not. The Holy spirit did not stand there with a jackhammer trying to force the unbeliever into becoming a believer. The Holy Spirit does however, continue to present the scriptures to the unbeliever so long as breath passes in and out of his lungs.

Here in America, if you do not know Jesus personally, it is because you do not want to know him. The Word is readily available in a wide variety of forms. So it is your personal willful choice whether or not you believe.

 

"Why do you deny that God created in us the attribute of Free will? An attribute being that which is true of us. Free will is not the same as desire or longing, or persuasion. Free will is that innate capacity to choose from choices, and act upon the choice."

Total depravity does not deny free will as you define it here. Rather, it sip,y recongises that not all choices are equally possible. Paul speaks clearly of the bondage of the will, and the inate enmity of men towards God. That means that the ability to choose God, while still a theoretcial possibility, is, practically, not possible because of the bondage of the will by sin.

To say that one has free will is not the same thing as saying that the will is unconditioned, that all options are equally possible to make. The Bible teaches that we have a free wil. But it also taches that our free will is conditioned by sin such that we wil always exercise our free will in a way that displeases God.

"Man's longings are for that which is missing, and he is seeking it in all the wrong places."

Of course he is. That is the effect of depravity. God gave man over to a depravred mind, one incappable of discerning the truth of God. The natural mind is incapapble fo understanding the things of God. Roamns 1 pictures man's search for God as a downward spiral. Man's longing for God never achieves its goal, and that because of sin.

 

Yelsew:

Free will can only be exercised within one's nature.
A fish can exercise free will as to whether it wants to swim here or there, or feed on this plank or that plank. That is its nature, it is a fish. But it cannot will itself to walk on land or to live there, neither can it will itself to read, or write.

A bird cannot will itself to live like a fish, or like a squirrel. As a matter of fact, even in their natural environments, a sparrow cannot soar like the eagle, nor can the eagle fly great distances non-stop like geese, just as some fish are not long distance swimmers as salmon, who as you know, can actually seem to swim upstream.

So with man. We can exercise our free will on what to read or not to read, what to wear and what not to wear, be respectful or disrespectful of our parents, but all within the bounds of our nature, which, in the spiritual realm, is a "dead nature."

Dead men do not respond, which is why it took Jesus' command for Lazarus to come out of the grave to make Lazarus' dead, stinking rotting body to move, and get up. He had to give Lazarus' dead body life before Lazarus could get up.

The Ephesian Christians were reminded by Paul in the 2nd Chapter, verses 1 and 2:

 

That is not entirely true - it only describes the condition of the lost (in both OT and NT) prior to salvation.

However the saints - the saved of both OT and NT are described in scripture as follows -

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Hebrews 11 describes and uncounted multitude of saints in the OT that chose faith and were saved.

In the OT we have those who were taken directly to heaven (Enoch and Elijah) as well as Moses who we find in Matt 17 standing on an equal level with Elijah in the heavenly realm before the cross.

Galatians 1:6-11 shows that there is only and has been only - One Gospel in all of time.

Hebrews 4:1-2 shows that "We have had the gospel preached to us Just as they also" referring to the Hebrews in the wilderness for 40 years.

Galations 3:7-8 says the gospel was preached to Abraham and Christ tells us in John 8 that Abraham saw Christ's day and was glad.

Scripture tells us that Abraham and others met God face to face (Gen 18 comes to mind) and of course we know from John 1 that they could only have been seeing Christ - God the Son, not God the Father.

So that means these people were saved by Grace - born again (according to the pre-cross teaching on the holy spirit) and believers in Christ - followers of Christ - long before the cross.

They were saved under the One Gospel.

The Hebrew nation church sovereignly chosen by God as the one true church - saved by grace and taught the same gospel that "we also" have heard - yet without as many of the details filled in.

in Christ,

Bob

 

Athough I do not agree in all points with Yelsew's model of how we obtain free will - Free Will is none-the-less taught in scripture by means that even Calvinism is forced to acknowledge.

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Matt 18 shows free will after forgiveness can sometimes have a negative result. The last half of MAtt 18 describes "forgiveness revoked" after having been forgiven and required to show like-minded forgiveness to one's fellow man.

Romans 3:9-20 shows total depravity where the will of man "of every one" of "all flesh" chooses evil. "Not even One" chooses to follow God.

Because of that depravity "No one " will come to salvation UNLESS God draws him (John 6)

But it is in that context of the total depravity of 'each one' such that "not even one" chooses God without being drawn - that God "Draws All Mankind" unto himself John 12:32.

Even Calvinism is forced to admit that the John 12:32 principle of "Drawing All mankind" is a supernatural act of God that sovereignly "enables what depravity disables" by way of man's ability to choose or not choose life.

All mankind are thereby enabled to choose and are called upon to choose life. But only the FEW of Matt 7 choose the narrow way.

In Romans 2 where the cases of the saved and the lost are contrasted - the contrasting language of the chapter "shows" the difference to be "other than the arbitrary selection process" - but rather the choice for "perserverance in doing good" as the chapter explicitly states.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Stop mixing the natural with the spiritual. The bible is not for the natural.

Jesus told us that the Father is Spirit and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and in Truth.

The Genesis creation account tells us we are made in the image of God. Therefore we must also be spirit, cause you don't look like me and I don't look like you. But we both have, from conception, a living spirit.

The things of God that He wants us to know of of the spirit and the life of the flesh is the spirit!

Comparing man's nature to the fish, birds, or mammals, is pure foolishness.

If man's spirit were dead, his flesh would also be dead. So stop the stinkin' thinkin'. We are spirit and one of our attributes is that God gave us free will. Everything we do we do is an act of our free will. For you to deny our free will is to deny your own ability to choose to follow Jesus.

Jesus called the disciples to follow him. Those totally depraved men, by their own free will followed Jesus. He did not wrestle them into submission and force them to follow. We are no different! We choose! Therefore we exercise our own free will. There were many more disciples than the twelve that Jesus personally selected. Multitudes followed Jesus, but the twelve were the ones given the task of being the building blocks. for Jesus' church.

As for me and my house, we will serve the Lord!

 

As I said,

Romans 3:9-20 shows total depravity where the will of man "of every one" of "all flesh" chooses evil. "Not even One" chooses to follow God.

And that is from an Arminian POV - Clearly the Calvinist POV accepts it as well.

In Christ,

Bob

[ December 26, 2002, 09:58 PM: Message edited by: BobRyan ]

 

"Jesus told us that the Father is Spirit and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and in Truth."

That's scripture paraphrased closely. No argument here.

"The Genesis creation account tells us we are made in the image of God. Therefore we must also be spirit, cause you don't look like me and I don't look like you. But we both have, from conception, a living spirit."

Being created in the image of God is straight from scripture as well. No arguemnt there.

"The things of God that He wants us to know of of the spirit and the life of the flesh is the spirit!"

The spirit animates the flesh, yes. But when the Bible speaks of being spiritually dead, it is speaking of affinity for God.

"Comparing man's nature to the fish, birds, or mammals, is pure foolishness."

This is not a valid arguemnt. The analogy is clear: a being can only acvt in accordance with its nature. That is as true for humans as for other created things. If it is not in our nature, becuase of the Fall, to react in a way that conforms to God's standard, then Total depravity is true, as a fact of nature. We were, originally, created with free will, a will that could choose to obey or disobey God, two choices that were equally possoible. As a result of the Fall, out nature is fallen, and we are no longer able to hold a choice fro God as being equally opsssible wityh a choice to displease God.

"If man's spirit were dead, his flesh would also be dead."

This is false. You are misdefining being spiritually dead.

"So stop the stinkin' thinkin'."

If we were to stop thinking we would be disobeying the God who said "Come, let us reason together." No can do. And it is not stinking thinking since the thoughts being offered are the fruit of scriptural study, and hence an attempt "to think God's thoughts after Him".

"We are spirit and one of our attributes is that God gave us free will. Everything we do we do is an act of our free will. For you to deny our free will is to deny your own ability to choose to follow Jesus."

You misdefine free will. We are nt able to hold all choices as equally possible to choose becuase our free will is conditioned by the consequences of the Fall. Unfettered free will does not exist since the Fall.

"Jesus called the disciples to follow him. Those totally depraved men, by their own free will followed Jesus."

Yes, Jesus CALLED them and THEN they followed. A sovereign call, a particular call, an effectual call. Exactly as Calvanism understands things. Thank you.

"He did not wrestle them into submission and force them to follow."

Effectual call is not about force.

"We are no different!"

In that we have been called, that is correct!

"We choose! Therefore we exercise our own free will."

In response to an effectual call from God. You could not have made the choice otherwise. Your will would not permit it, becuase you were Totally Depraved.

"There were many more disciples than the twelve that Jesus personally selected. Multitudes followed Jesus, but the twelve were the ones given the task of being the building blocks. for Jesus' church."

Yes, Jesus personally selced them. Particular Call, effectual Call. ithad to be that way becuase a general call is invariably rejected due to total depravity.

You are very close. But you put the emPHAsis on the wrong sylLABle. Choose because called.

 

"Comparing man's nature to the fish, birds, or mammals, is pure foolishness." And I add, Because it is man's spirit that sets him apart from all other created beings. It is mans spirit wherein the fall manifests itself. It is the sin nature in man's spirit that separates man from God.

Birds fly, Humans also take to the air. Fish swim below the surface of the water, man also lives under water for long periods of time. Therefore let us rule out nature or natural things. I disagree, it is not 'as a fact of nature', but rather of a fact of sin nature. The spirit is the life of the flesh and therefore directs the flesh in all of its actions. The spirit controls the flesh, else there would be no resisting of temptation. Everything that titilates the flesh would be carried out to the nth degree. However, even the most vile of persons can resist temptations to sin if he/she wants to exercise the free will given by God in the creation. If not true, then no one person could come to belief in God and thus receive the redemption that is already paid for by Jesus. Yet many have come to faith in Jesus by exercising their free will to believe.

Free will is the mechanism through which choice among options is made. That mechanism retains all the capability that it did in the first created human. The only thing that changed in the fall is that man became unpure and unholy, defiled, because man disobeyed God. We continue to retain every attribute that God created us to have including free will, but because of the fall, excluding our former Holiness.

God is Holy, Man was holy but disobeyed God and lost whatever holiness he possessed through an act of the free will. Holy God and unholy man have no spiritual connection, thus man's spirit is considered by God, the source of Life, to be dead. However we know that the spirit is not dead in that it is the life of the flesh. Without it, the flesh most assuredly dies, because even with the spirit the flesh dies while the spirit lives on.

Ah, but I was following the line of thought that relies on "human nature" that so many others have understood and posted which concerns the nature of man. I know that I am speaking of the spiritual condition of man rather the physical condition of man's earthly human home.

It is stinkin' thinkin' when it takes man out of the spirit realm and confines him to the natural realm. Man is spirit in the image of God the creator, and not simply a flesh creation with a spirit. Our whole essence is defined by spirit!

No sir, I do not misdefine free will, for free will is the mechanism by which man chooses from among options, options that are established along man's "life path".

The call was but one option available to them, and buy exercising their own individual free will they eventually became the "Body of Christ" in the Christ's absence from this earth.

You negate the fact that "All are effectually called by God", that is the purpose of Gospel message. The Gospel message is a plain and simple invitation for all men to believe on the Son of God and receive life eternal. It is not a "targeted message" to a specific demographic group.

I would say rather that the twelve were not to be building blocks, but the builders themselves, the Body of Christ!

And at pentacost? Jesus was not there to personally select the 3000 who came at Peter's "general call". Total depravity would have prevented that, you said so! There would have been no free will response on the part of the 3000 because of total depravity of man, yet 3000 responded in one day, and they had no printed bibles or other "newcomer" literature to hand out.

Wrong my friend, man was given intelligence with which to make personal choices from among the options given, no matter what state of sin he/she find themselves. The Gospel message would be useless to all if that were not true.

Stop trying to be one of a "special class of chosen ones", God is no respecter of man! The invitation is open to all who will hear and choose to respond through belief. The call is to all! Jesus said, "if anyman hear my voice and open the door I will come in and sup with him and he with me". That is not just an elected elite that is invited as you seem to believe. Since the call is to all, how does one respond if not by an individual free will response of belief in Jesus, even on his name?

 

Primative,
If you are going to limit my use of Revelation 3-20 to the Church at Laodicea only, then I must insist that your use of Romans be so limited to the Roman church, and Corinthians to the Corinthian church, etc. Context...Context...Context!

 

"Birds fly, Humans also take to the air. Fish swim below the surface of the water, man also lives under water for long periods of time. Therefore let us rule out nature or natural things."

You aren't unserstanding the point of the analogy at all. In fact it seems that you're gping out of your way to stretch it beyond what is intended so you can ignore it. The point is that beings can't go beyond their nature. Deal with that point if you can.

"The spirit is the life of the flesh and therefore directs the flesh in all of its actions. The spirit controls the flesh, else there would be no resisting of temptation. Everything that titilates the flesh would be carried out to the nth degree. However, even the most vile of persons can resist temptations to sin if he/she wants to exercise the free will given by God in the creation. If not true, then no one person could come to belief in God and thus receive the redemption that is already paid for by Jesus. Yet many have come to faith in Jesus by exercising their free will to believe."

Your spouting your own philosophy here, not scripture. You are notaddressing the scriptures raised against you. All your pretensions to logic are vain in light of Scripture. Deal with the Scriptural arguments pelease.

"Free will is the mechanism through which choice among options is made. That mechanism retains all the capability that it did in the first created human."

That isn't scriptural. We are now slaves to sin. That is a scriptural truth you haven't addressed. Please drop your philosophy of humanity and deal with biblical anthropology.

"The only thing that changed in the fall is that man became unpure and unholy, defiled, because man disobeyed God. We continue to retain every attribute that God created us to have including free will, but because of the fall, excluding our former Holiness."

No. That isn't remotely scriptural.

"God is Holy, Man was holy but disobeyed God and lost whatever holiness he possessed through an act of the free will."

It is far mor than that. Deal witht he Scriptures presented to this point which refer to that reality.

"Ah, but I was following the line of thought that relies on "human nature" that so many others have understood and posted which concerns the nature of man."

No your not. That isn't the argument that was being made at all. you are misrepresenting the arguments of others. Please cease to do this.

"I know that I am speaking of the spiritual condition of man rather the physical condition of man's earthly human home."

Then why won't you deal with the arguments and scritpures given that bear precisely on that? You have not done so to this point.

"It is stinkin' thinkin' when it takes man out of the spirit realm and confines him to the natural realm. Man is spirit in the image of God the creator, and not simply a flesh creation with a spirit. Our whole essence is defined by spirit"

This is a misrepresentation of the argument. And you are responding with more philosophy.

"No sir, I do not misdefine free will, for free will is the mechanism by which man chooses from among options, options that are established along man's "life path"."

Yes, you do mnisdefine it. And I paraphrased several scriptures that demonstrate thatfact. You mere gratuitous assertion that you have not misdefined free willin the face o that evidence is not worth considering as a response.

"The call was but one option available to them, and buy exercising their own individual free will they eventually became the "Body of Christ" in the Christ's absence from this earth."

No. The specific call was such that they did not want to refuse. That's why they responded as they did.

"You negate the fact that "All are effectually called by God", that is the purpose of Gospel message. The Gospel message is a plain and simple invitation for all men to believe on the Son of God and receive life eternal. It is not a "targeted message" to a specific demographic group."

You obviously don't know what the terms I am using mean. If the general call of the gospel were effectual thewn ALL would come to faith. And I don't negate anything. I just know the difference between a general call, and a specific one, a targeted one. Jesus did both. Only the targeted call is effectual.

"I would say rather that the twelve were not to be building blocks, but the builders themselves, the Body of Christ!"

Scripture says that the apostles were the foundation, like building blocks. Beleivers are like stnes being built into a house. That is explicit scripture. Have you not read the NT?? I mean nevermind what you would "rather" say! your preference is irrelevant! What does scriture say?

"And at pentacost? Jesus was not there to personally select the 3000 who came at Peter's "general call". Total depravity would have prevented that, you said so! There would have been no free will response on the part of the 3000 because of total depravity of man, yet 3000 responded in one day, and they had no printed bibles or other "newcomer" literature to hand out."

particular effectual calls don't have to be done by Christ specifically, nor do they have to be like the little caricatures (they don't qualify as a substantial repsonse either) you draw. You really have no clued about what you're arguing against do you? YOu have not read the NT nor theology texts?? And you're arguing this stuff???

"Wrong my friend, man was given intelligence with which to make personal choices from among the options given, no matter what state of sin he/she find themselves. The Gospel message would be useless to all if that were not true."

I agrere that people make choices. But we are not able to hold all options as equally possible. Our limitations that we have as a result of the Fall are real and they exist. In your theology Christ is quite unnecessary. You could do it yourself.

The gospel exists fro more reasons than to bring people to Christ. By your reasoning then ALL people must be saved. They aren't.

Read the Scriptures, especially Romans, then talk.

" Stop trying to be one of a "special class of chosen ones", God is no respecter of man! The invitation is open to all who will hear and choose to respond through belief. The call is to all! Jesus said, "if anyman hear my voice and open the door I will come in and sup with him and he with me". That is not just an elected elite that is invited as you seem to believe. Since the call is to all, how does one respond if not by an individual free will response of belief in Jesus, even on his name? "

You really are ignorant of the facts of Calvanism are't you? And the Bible? Yes there is a general call. It is an authentic offer. But the effects of the Fall are such that we don't respond approrpaitely. Romans 1. Without the special act of God in effectual call, then none would be saved. By your reasoning all will be saved. If you're a universalist then say so plainly. If you're a humanist (and your reasoning is blatantly humanistic) then say so plainly.

You won't deceive God's elect with this nonsense. Calvanism is predicated onsuch things as God not beig a respecter of persons, and having love for the whole world. Your obvuous ignroance fo this makes it pointless to try to have an informed discusion with you.

If you can actually address the scriptural arguemtns then maybe we'll talk. Not before.

 

Christ speaking through the Apostle John in 1:9 and Luke in 11:35 points out that humankind is not totally depraved although a person is able to commit terrible sins. Every human being has a conscience that points the individual to God. Human beings have intellect which is a reminder to us that we were created in His Image. {James 3:9d}

You will find that most Bible interpreters skip over these verses because they do not know how to comingle these verses with the rest of the Bible, which is God's Word.

 

Ray Berrian is right, why wouldn't you agree with him? Unless of course you have an agenda that negates portions of scripture because you don't know their meaning or how they apply.

So how do you deal with the scriptures that Ray pointed out?