Total Spiritual Inability

[Alive in Christ]

jonathan posted....

All men are morally depraved until regeneration, but all have total ability to respond to the Holy Spirit's convicting work, either with acceptance or rejection.


Quote:
Acts 7:51 **Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.

So we see that the term "total inability" is complete nonsense, since people always have been and will continue to be "able" either to resist or receive the Holy Spirit who is alive and present and convicting everyone in the world.

Absolutly

Those sucked into the horrible errors of calvinism have been greatly decieved. Lord help them.

 

[Herald]

You see I underlined that above, it's what I call the perfect example of an assumed theology.

No, MB, it is using the whole counsel of God. Your theological paradigm does not allow you to ask questions (which is, by the way, one of the rules of biblical interpretation). The doctrine of the Trinity would be, according to you, "assumed theology." Why? Because there is no one verse in the Bible that teaches it clearly. Unless, of course, you deny the doctrine of the Trinity.

That passage suggest all men but there you go trying to make scripture fit your theology by claiming it is only the elect.

MB, well then, you are a universalist. You believe all people everywhere, throughout all time, are going to be saved. You are forced into that view by your own words. You won't even ask the question, "what does John mean by "all men"?"

We are not elect before Salvation and not only that you cannot prove that we are.

Quite the contrary, I can prove it, and I have proved it on this board ad infinitum, ad nauseaum (and it is really not me proving it, it is the testimony of scripture). Rom. 8:29, 30; 11:7; Eph. 1:4, 11; 2 Tim. 1:9; 1 Pet. 2:9; 2 Pet. 1:3, 10 et. al. all testify to God electing his sheep before they actually came to faith. You reject this interpretation, but that is not news.

In fact there are none that state man is unable to respond to the gospel and that includes all those you claim that does. I can read Hearld and not one of those passages prove an inability.

I am quite sure you can read. Unfortunately you have misunderstood what you have read.

You have a very poor definition of the word "regeneration" Not one dictionary defines it as you do there fore your definition is false. There are not two parts to regeneration. It is simply the saving of a mans soul.

I am quite confident in my understanding of the word "regeneration" in regards to the new birth. I am not trying to be cheeky, but follow me here. "Regeneration" in Titus 3:5 is the word palingenesias (παλινγενεσίας). It is the word "genesia" preceded by an adverb, "palin." Genesia means "origin, birth, or existence." It is a cognate of the word "genesis." "Palin" means "turning; a return to a previous state or activity." Palingenesias (regeneration) is commonly understood to mean a renewal of life. This is why regeneration is referred to, by theologians, are representing the new birth. We see this in Matthew 19:

[28]*Jesus said to them, “Truly, I say to you, in the new world, when the Son of Man will sit on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

(Matthew 19:28 ESV)

"New world" is actually paliggenesias, "regeneration." Here is Matthew 19:28 in the Authorized Version:

[28] And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

(Matthew 19:28 KJV)

Regeneration is a making new of something that was old. It is the new birth. The new birth results in the individual becoming part of the family of God, but that is not what regeneration is. You can say what you think it is all you want, but it does not stand up to the scrutiny of scripture.

"There is no faith if there is no grace."
This statement is impossible according to scripture.
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; God's word says you don't know what you are talking about and shows you are trying to manipulate scripture to make it say what you want instead of what God says.
MB

You really are having a difficult time understanding scripture. I stand by my previous statement on this verse. To try and school you on it will not be time well spent.

 

[zrs6v4]

You cannot be a sheep before you are a sheep. Before Christ you certainly were not a sheep because you did not follow the Shepard. You were not elect until you were in Christ.The elect and the sheep are terms given to the flock that follows Christ They are saved. You were born in sin just like the rest of the world.

Is that what John teaches in His gospel? Obviously we disagree, but until we dialogue and discuss John 6-12 we are going to misunderstand and talk right past each other. I am tempted to comment on your statements above but it wont do justice to interpreting John’s gospel (namely chapters 6-12) if we go off on random rabbit trails. Your comments I assume are from how you see John’s gospel correct? Can you point to where those came from in His gospel? I will then comment and we can go from there if your ok with that?

The underlined above. It was Christ that was lifted up not those who are drawn.

My choice of words might have been poor here. Yes I agree Christ was the one lifted up in John 12:32. When He died and rose again He brought the lost to God. Johns choice word for bringing the lost to God in 12:32 was “draw”. In other words the purpose of His death was to save sinners by paying for their sin. That is why 12:33 says, “He said this to show by what kind of death he was going to die.” So to be more detailed, John 12:32 reveals the purpose in Christ’s death, that is to draw sinners near to God. We differ because you say “All men” means all human beings of all time. I say it means a select few.

How I arrive at my view is by taking the teaching from John 12:32-33 is understanding what John is doing in His gospel. The end of chapter 12 sets up chapters 13-17 where John shows us the final night with His disciples before His arrest, chapters 18-20:29 Jesus’ death, burial, and resurrection accounts, chapters 20:30-31 John’s purpose; and chapter 21 the final resurrection appearance to the disciples. Why is this important? Because the statement in 12:32-33 leads in to 12:37-43 where John shows God’s purpose in Jesus’ being rejected by His people, the Jews (Chapter 1:11), in order that He can die and draw all men from all people groups including Gentile Greeks (12:20). The drawing described in John 12:32 is only generally speaking of the death of Christ and bringing sinners both Jews and gentiles to Himself. I don’t make this chapter and guide to my theology.

My prior point when bringing up John 6:44 is different from 12:32 because Jesus isn’t talking about drawing all people to Himself by His sacrificial death. We know this by studying the context. What John 6:44 is saying is that people do not come to Jesus in faith without being drawn to the Father. The context here is a large group of hungry people who came back to use Him for bread after He fed over 5,000 men. Jesus teaching in John 6 says that all who believe will be saved (John 6:35 and 6:40). The issue is that none are getting it and 6:36-39, 6:44-45, and 6:60-65 reveals why they aren’t coming to Him by faith, that is that they need to be drawn by the Father (6:44) by being taught by Him (6:45). Jesus conclusion for their lack of faith is that they were not given to Him by the Father (chosen, elected for salvation, however you want to paraphrase it) and we see this in 6:36-37. If they were given to Jesus they would come and receive eternally life that they would not be lost (6:38-39). 6:40 is a restatement of 6:35, where all who believe are those who receive eternal life. They are evidences of the Father’s drawing. Lastly, 6:63-65, Jesus again diverts back to previous statements from 6:44. He said, “The words I have spoken are spirit and are life. But there are some of you who do not believe.” Jesus conclusion again is found in 6:65 why people do not come in faith, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.”

So we see in John 12 Jesus is speaking generally about His sacrificial death and John 6 He is responding to followers lack of faith. I did my best establishing context although I apologize if it is choppy.

Let me say this. The above is clear to me, but taking John 12:32 by itself it is not so clear to make an interpretation on WHO he did for specifically. It clearly shows that Jesus died for Jews and Gentiles by using the Jews blindness and rejection to lead Him to the cross (12:37-43). It does not clearly say that He died for only the sheep in this particular passage, nor does it say that He died for every human being who ever lived. I would be fairly comfortable with taking John 6:37-39 with John 12:27 and making a case that Christ had a mission to come save all that the Father had given Him from Jews and Gentiles alike. In other words He died only for the elect/sheep. My case here is not as clear unless you then get into John 10 where Christ talks more specifically about dying for the sheep.

To be continued...

 

[zrs6v4]

Continued..

The drawn are only promised to be raised up on the last day. All will be raised up then some to glory and some to destruction because all are drawn
All people being drawn does not mean all will be saved, which would be universalism. There is a huge difference between being raised up and being saved.

Interesting view. I apologize if I forced a view on you earlier. I agree all will be raised at the final judgment John 5:28-29. I agree that there is a difference between being raised up (resurrected and glorified) and being saved (justified). Yet, the context of John 6:22-65 is speaking of believing in Jesus, not about being drawn in the final resurrection. All who are given to Jesus to save are raised up (glorified/resurrected). In other words election secures our salvation completely from beginning to end. Jesus reveals that those who are “given” (6:37 or 6:39) are the ones “granted” (6:65), “drawn” to Christ (6:44),” taught” by the Father (6:45), and who “come” to Him by faith (6:35-36, 6:40, 6:44) are always raised on the last day (6:37 and 6:39). This is speaking of specific resurrection to life rather than general resurrection to judgment, therefore I would disagree with your interpretation here.

All this and yet not once does scripture say exactly what you claim. I would suppose that you would be frustrated. Since scripture doesn't support your theory. In your interpretation it seems you actually rewrite scripture.
Joh 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
You conveniently stop at verse 39 Why? Could it be that the next verse is distastefull.
Joh 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

This is why I went into much detail above regarding my dealing with Scripture trying to grasp what Jesus is really saying. I’m not frustrated to be really honest. I would appreciate if you deal with the context of John 12 you used and John 6 rather than assume my emotions. I think it would be more beneficial for each of us to grasp the others views and wrestle with them and challenge each other in our interpretations. John 6:40 was not avoided above, It is the means by which we come to Christ, by faith. 6:35 and 6:40 are the point of the passage. Jesus wants people to come to Him by faith not to use Him for bread. He told them to seek eternal life rather than food.

Oh I know that "everyone" really means Everyone of the elect or all the sheep to you. You're are right about one thing and that is I don't understand. I don't understand how you can call it interpretation when it is a complete rewrite of the gospel. Calvinism has added so much to the word of God that I'm surprised that God didn't consult you all before it was written.
MB

I didn’t say you didn’t understand. I try to avoid personal attacks or anything that provokes pride or anger on here. I simply want to have a discussion and the passage at hand was originally used by you (John 12:32). I do believe that Christ came to save the elect/sheep. I do not get that from John 12:32. I do not believe I am rewriting the gospel, nor do I think you are. We both know that we are justified by grace through faith in the work of Christ 1 Cor. 15 defines the gospel and we both agree. What we are discussing is details that are important but not essential for me. I love details but not going to throw a brother off a cliff over them. I am sorry you feel that way toward Calvinism. I’m still willing to chat respectfully about John’s gospel account, so the ball is in your court.

 

[Iconoclast]

Prove it with scripture then.
MB

Quote:
Originally Posted by Iconoclast View Post
Hank....the spiritually dead man has physical life but cannot properly understand the scripture savingly...2thess2 24 26...he cannot until indwelt by the Spirit. 1 cor2 rom 8.7

MB,
The letters and numbers I posted were scripture verses.....if you look at them they are pretty clear...let's look;

That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Paul in Romans 8 is contrasting the saved sinners who are indwelt with the Holy Spirit, and those sinners who are not yet born from above


5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

The contrast is very clear to anyone who wants to see it.Even an unsaved person could see this contrast if they read a bible objectively.

The unsaved - walk after the flesh....in verse 4
The unsaved -mind the things of the flesh in verse 5

Saved sinners-walk after the Spirit having God's law fulfilled in them vs4
saved sinners-mind the things of the Spirit

6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

The unsaved- since the fall have a mind that is enmity against God
The unsaved-have minds that are not subject to,that are hostile to God and His word
The unsaved we are told- NEITHER INDEED CAN BE.....

8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

We can follow this pattern here and 1 cor2 and everywhere else in the bible.It can be seen if anyone wants to see it...and in fact it cannot be seen any other way if someone wants to be faithful to the scripture.

 

[Winman]

MB,
The letters and numbers I posted were scripture verses.....if you look at them they are pretty clear...let's look;

That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Paul in Romans 8 is contrasting the saved sinners who are indwelt with the Holy Spirit, and those sinners who are not yet born from above


5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

The contrast is very clear to anyone who wants to see it.Even an unsaved person could see this contrast if they read a bible objectively.

The unsaved - walk after the flesh....in verse 4
The unsaved -mind the things of the flesh in verse 5

Saved sinners-walk after the Spirit having God's law fulfilled in them vs4
saved sinners-mind the things of the Spirit

6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

The unsaved- since the fall have a mind that is enmity against God
The unsaved-have minds that are not subject to,that are hostile to God and His word
The unsaved we are told- NEITHER INDEED CAN BE.....

8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

We can follow this pattern here and 1 cor2 and everywhere else in the bible.It can be seen if anyone wants to see it...and in fact it cannot be seen any other way if someone wants to be faithful to the scripture.

The problem is, there is MUCH scripture that refutes your view. The scriptures clearly show man has the ability to believe the gospel, and when man believes the gospel he receives the Holy Spirit. You have been shown many times, but you refuse to come to the truth.

Gal 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

Paul's question clearly demands the answer that these Galatians received the Holy Spirit by first believing the gospel, but you will not come to the truth Iconoclast.

Acts 19:2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.

Paul's question easily shows he believed a person received the Holy Spirit AFTER first believing, but you will not receive the truth Iconoclast.

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Peter directly says a person must believe to receive the Spirit, because only believers are allowed to be baptized. Peter said that AFTER these Jews were baptized they would receive the Spirit.

Here are three verses that all clearly show a person first believes before they receive the Spirit, but you refuse to come to the truth Iconoclast and believe the false doctrines of men. I will pray that you come to the truth.

 

[Iconoclast]

Winman,
you did not address Romans 8...so do you agree with what i posted on romans 8?

but you will not receive the truth Iconoclast.

Anyone who has come to the truth can see you have no idea what you are talking about with those out of context verses you are wresting .You have been answered many times on those verses...that you do not welcome truth is on you.

 

[Winman]

Winman,
you did not address Romans 8...so do you agree with what i posted on romans 8?



Anyone who has come to the truth can see you have no idea what you are talking about with those out of context verses you are wresting .You have been answered many times on those verses...that you do not welcome truth is on you.

Iconoclast, I tried to show you the truth, but obviously you love the darkness. I have addressed Romans 8 many times. Your interpretation cannot be correct, as many scriptures show that man has the ability to believe, and that AFTER believing we receive the Spirit. Unfortunately you love the darkness and will not come to this truth. I will pray for you. I will try to help you if you will let me.

 

[MB]

No, MB, it is using the whole counsel of God. Your theological paradigm does not allow you to ask questions (which is, by the way, one of the rules of biblical interpretation). The doctrine of the Trinity would be, according to you, "assumed theology." Why? Because there is no one verse in the Bible that teaches it clearly. Unless, of course, you deny the doctrine of the Trinity.

You have no idea what you are saying here. I wonder have you ever actually read the Bible because, of statements like this one. I'm just not so sure. I ask questions all the time and I never assume the doctrines of men are worth there salt. This is what you get from your rewriting of scripture. You don't ask you dictate your theology. The trinity is supported in many places in scripture. Write them down
Col 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
Joh 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
1Jn 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
Joh 12:45 And he that seeth me seeth him that sent me.

In Col. 2:9 all of the God head are in Christ. Just how else would you describe that? I call it the trinity. Scoffers love to Challenge 1st JN 5:7 but there accusations are unprovable. They only want to create doubt. Obviously they have in you.

MB, well then, you are a universalist. You believe all people everywhere, throughout all time, are going to be saved. You are forced into that view by your own words. You won't even ask the question, "what does John mean by "all men"?"

Hearld you couldn't be more wrong and what's more I think you're smart enough to know you are. Where you believe you have been predestined to be saved, I do not. I do not see all men being saved because they are all drawn. I see some being saved because they have turned to Christ. I also believe we are not given to Christ until we have turned to Him, In other words repented. I know you will question this next statement but I'm going to bring it to your attention whether you know it or not. The disciple John never wrote or preached repentance in the book of John. He only gave us the gospel it self. Yet we both know repentance is very necessary.

Quite the contrary, I can prove it, and I have proved it on this board ad infinitum, ad nauseaum (and it is really not me proving it, it is the testimony of scripture). Rom. 8:29, 30; 11:7; Eph. 1:4, 11; 2 Tim. 1:9; 1 Pet. 2:9; 2 Pet. 1:3, 10 et. al. all testify to God electing his sheep before they actually came to faith. You reject this interpretation, but that is not news.

I've read all those passages so many times and everytime I read them I'm even more convinced that Calvinism is just plain wrong. I'm not going to address everyone in one post.
Rom 8:29 For instance you have taken it out of context. Paul just stated in the previous verse;
Rom 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
This is not election it does not even mention election. It is saying that those who love God are predestined to be conformed to the likeness of Christ. This has absolutely nothing to do with being elect before Salvation. All are already saved before any of this happens. Per verse 28
Eph 1:4 is about election but it is only in Christ that we are elect. Which confirms what I just wrote about your Rom. 8:28-29,30. All these verses do not prove your theory of election to Salvation or before Salvation it's non sense. The passage that supports such a notion doesn't exist.

I am quite sure you can read. Unfortunately you have misunderstood what you have read.

You know when I was in school I got top grades for reading and comprehension. I am a very careful reader and you claim I don't understand what I have read. Well I think you mean well Herald but rewritting scripture isn't necessary to understand it. My Grandson understood the Bible and it's gospel message when he was 6 years old and you can bet I taught him to read it with his own understanding and he accepted Christ because of it. It was written so that a child could understand it. Not you though you had to make it hard for your self. That is what I do not understand about what you rewrite in scripture and then call it interpretation.

I am quite confident in my understanding of the word "regeneration" in regards to the new birth. I am not trying to be cheeky, but follow me here. "Regeneration" in Titus 3:5 is the word palingenesias (παλινγενεσίας). It is the word "genesia" preceded by an adverb, "palin." Genesia means "origin, birth, or existence." It is a cognate of the word "genesis." "Palin" means "turning; a return to a previous state or activity." Palingenesias (regeneration) is commonly understood to mean a renewal of life. This is why regeneration is referred to, by theologians, are representing the new birth. We see this in Matthew 19:

I agree that regeneration means the new birth. That it is being remade, reborn and saved.

[28]*Jesus said to them, “Truly, I say to you, in the new world, when the Son of Man will sit on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

(Matthew 19:28 ESV)

"New world" is actually paliggenesias, "regeneration." Here is Matthew 19:28 in the Authorized Version:

[28] And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

(Matthew 19:28 KJV)

Regeneration is a making new of something that was old. It is the new birth. The new birth results in the individual becoming part of the family of God, but that is not what regeneration is. You can say what you think it is all you want, but it does not stand up to the scrutiny of scripture.



You really are having a difficult time understanding scripture. I stand by my previous statement on this verse. To try and school you on it will not be time well spent.

Somewhere along the line you began to think that I don't agree that Regeneration is being remade, being made new in Christ and being part of the family of God. I have no idea of where you got this from. My disagreement with the Calvinist doctrine of being regenerated before faith and repentance is what my disagreement is about.
Calvinist claim they are regenerated or saved first so that they can believe and they have no proof of that it's just more of the rewriting of scripture they do. To prove there doctrines of not so graceful grace. It is impossible to be born in to the family of God with out faith and the turning to Christ.
You've claimed to try to educate me on regeneration but it is you who needs the education that regeneration never happens to an unbelieving soul. They must first believe. They must first repent or, turn to Christ. And you're convinced we can't do that with out regeneration. You have no reason to believe such nonsense. Scripture is certainly not alone in Calvinism it is with additions that were never meant to be there.
MB

 

[MB]

Is that what John teaches in His gospel? Obviously we disagree, but until we dialogue and discuss John 6-12 we are going to misunderstand and talk right past each other. I am tempted to comment on your statements above but it wont do justice to interpreting John’s gospel (namely chapters 6-12) if we go off on random rabbit trails. Your comments I assume are from how you see John’s gospel correct? Can you point to where those came from in His gospel? I will then comment and we can go from there if your ok with that?

I can only say that God is who knows where the sheep from other flocks come from. That means I don't know and I do not believe anyone else does either. You might speculate, you might even guess but I do not place belief in either.

My choice of words might have been poor here. Yes I agree Christ was the one lifted up in John 12:32. When He died and rose again He brought the lost to God. Johns choice word for bringing the lost to God in 12:32 was “draw”. In other words the purpose of His death was to save sinners by paying for their sin. That is why 12:33 says, “He said this to show by what kind of death he was going to die.” So to be more detailed, John 12:32 reveals the purpose in Christ’s death, that is to draw sinners near to God. We differ because you say “All men” means all human beings of all time. I say it means a select few.

If Christ didn't die for all man kind then why did John say that "God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."
Calvinist try to make it seem as if He wasn't talking about the whole world yet it is what He said. He didn't say He died just for the few He died for the whole world. In this is our Salvation and if we believe in His Son as the verse says then we will have eternal life. There is no mention of a few here at all Though I agree those of us who believe and trust in Jesus Christ are indeed few.

How I arrive at my view is by taking the teaching from John 12:32-33 is understanding what John is doing in His gospel. The end of chapter 12 sets up chapters 13-17 where John shows us the final night with His disciples before His arrest, chapters 18-20:29 Jesus’ death, burial, and resurrection accounts, chapters 20:30-31 John’s purpose; and chapter 21 the final resurrection appearance to the disciples. Why is this important? Because the statement in 12:32-33 leads in to 12:37-43 where John shows God’s purpose in Jesus’ being rejected by His people, the Jews (Chapter 1:11), in order that He can die and draw all men from all people groups including Gentile Greeks (12:20). The drawing described in John 12:32 is only generally speaking of the death of Christ and bringing sinners both Jews and gentiles to Himself. I don’t make this chapter and guide to my theology.

My prior point when bringing up John 6:44 is different from 12:32 because Jesus isn’t talking about drawing all people to Himself by His sacrificial death. We know this by studying the context. What John 6:44 is saying is that people do not come to Jesus in faith without being drawn to the Father. The context here is a large group of hungry people who came back to use Him for bread after He fed over 5,000 men. Jesus teaching in John 6 says that all who believe will be saved (John 6:35 and 6:40). The issue is that none are getting it and 6:36-39, 6:44-45, and 6:60-65 reveals why they aren’t coming to Him by faith, that is that they need to be drawn by the Father (6:44) by being taught by Him (6:45). Jesus conclusion for their lack of faith is that they were not given to Him by the Father (chosen, elected for salvation, however you want to paraphrase it) and we see this in 6:36-37. If they were given to Jesus they would come and receive eternally life that they would not be lost (6:38-39). 6:40 is a restatement of 6:35, where all who believe are those who receive eternal life. They are evidences of the Father’s drawing. Lastly, 6:63-65, Jesus again diverts back to previous statements from 6:44. He said, “The words I have spoken are spirit and are life. But there are some of you who do not believe.” Jesus conclusion again is found in 6:65 why people do not come in faith, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.”

So we see in John 12 Jesus is speaking generally about His sacrificial death and John 6 He is responding to followers lack of faith. I did my best establishing context although I apologize if it is choppy.

Let me say this. The above is clear to me, but taking John 12:32 by itself it is not so clear to make an interpretation on WHO he did for specifically. It clearly shows that Jesus died for Jews and Gentiles by using the Jews blindness and rejection to lead Him to the cross (12:37-43). It does not clearly say that He died for only the sheep in this particular passage, nor does it say that He died for every human being who ever lived. I would be fairly comfortable with taking John 6:37-39 with John 12:27 and making a case that Christ had a mission to come save all that the Father had given Him from Jews and Gentiles alike. In other words He died only for the elect/sheep. My case here is not as clear unless you then get into John 10 where Christ talks more specifically about dying for the sheep.

To be continued...

Well He did die for the sheep and He also died for all those who reject His message. He died for sinners and that is still the whole world. This is not universalism as suggested by others. The sin that sends men to hell is the rejection of Jesus Christ and in that they burn for all there sins.
MB

 

[Iconoclast]

Iconoclast, I tried to show you the truth, but obviously you love the darkness. I have addressed Romans 8 many times. Your interpretation cannot be correct, as many scriptures show that man has the ability to believe, and that AFTER believing we receive the Spirit. Unfortunately you love the darkness and will not come to this truth. I will pray for you. I will try to help you if you will let me.

The only darkness here is the gospel of works you describe.....no thanks:wavey:

 

[MB]

Continued..


Interesting view. I apologize if I forced a view on you earlier. I agree all will be raised at the final judgment John 5:28-29. I agree that there is a difference between being raised up (resurrected and glorified) and being saved (justified). Yet, the context of John 6:22-65 is speaking of believing in Jesus, not about being drawn in the final resurrection. All who are given to Jesus to save are raised up (glorified/resurrected). In other words election secures our salvation completely from beginning to end. Jesus reveals that those who are “given” (6:37 or 6:39) are the ones “granted” (6:65), “drawn” to Christ (6:44),” taught” by the Father (6:45), and who “come” to Him by faith (6:35-36, 6:40, 6:44) are always raised on the last day (6:37 and 6:39). This is speaking of specific resurrection to life rather than general resurrection to judgment, therefore I would disagree with your interpretation here.

John 6 is most wonderful because it shows the hearts of the men who followed Christ up the mountain. Some believed Him some didn't. Some were dissatisfied with the idea of eating His flesh and drinking His blood. They were all of them seeking something some sought Christ, others how to work the works of God. Some were disciples other than the twelve. I find that Christ spoke to some with clarity and some couldn't understand it anyway He said it. The reason some didn't understand is because they didn't have a clue who He really was, even if He had told them. Most of them if not all were Jews Blinded because of a Prophecy by Isaiah. These Jews were the only ones who were blinded so that the Gentiles could be grafted in.
He did say no one could come to Him unless it was granted by the Father.

It all turns back to verse 32
Joh 6:32 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven.
Joh 6:33 For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.
Joh 6:34 Then said they unto him, Lord, evermore give us this bread.
Joh 6:35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh
to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.

I do not believe election insures Salvation and have never seen any real proof of any Gentile ever being elect from before the foundation of the world
Look again at;
Eph 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:
Ephesians was written to Saints and the Faithful in Christ which nullifies the claim about Eph. 1:4 because like the verse says those this letter was intended for were actually already in Christ. It is not about the so called lost elect before Salvation. The part about "before the foundation of the world" pertains to those who are and would be "in Christ" like those this letter was written to.
Paul was telling them they were elect just like the Jew In Christ.

There really is no other way to explain it with out avoiding who the letter is addressing and those words "in Christ" This is the only way a Gentile can be elect. I know Calvinism says differently but only because they failed to take into account to whom Ephesians was addressed to.

I know my reply includes Ephesians 1 but you have to remember there is only one doctrine that tells us all we need. that is the gospel it self.
Burried with Christ. Dying with Christ. and being raised with Christ.
MB

 

[Winman]

The only darkness here is the gospel of works you describe.....no thanks:wavey:

The scriptures do not show man unable to believe, the scriptures clearly show that men first believe and afterward receive the Spirit. You are unwilling to receive this simple truth from scripture. I will pray that you be delivered from these chains of ignorance that you are bound by. I will try to help you.

 

[Iconoclast]

The scriptures do not show man unable to believe, the scriptures clearly show that men first believe and afterward receive the Spirit. You are unwilling to receive this simple truth from scripture. I will pray that you be delivered from these chains of ignorance that you are bound by. I will try to help you.

here it is.....

Paul in Romans 8 is contrasting the saved sinners who are indwelt with the Holy Spirit, and those sinners who are not yet born from above


5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

The contrast is very clear to anyone who wants to see it.Even an unsaved person could see this contrast if they read a bible objectively.

The unsaved - walk after the flesh....in verse 4
The unsaved -mind the things of the flesh in verse 5

Saved sinners-walk after the Spirit having God's law fulfilled in them vs4
saved sinners-mind the things of the Spirit

6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

The unsaved- since the fall have a mind that is enmity against God
The unsaved-have minds that are not subject to,that are hostile to God and His word
The unsaved we are told- NEITHER INDEED CAN BE.....

8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

We can follow this pattern here and 1 cor2 and everywhere else in the bible.It can be seen if anyone wants to see it...and in fact it cannot be seen any other way if someone wants to be faithful to the scripture.
__________________

 

[zrs6v4]

John 6 is most wonderful because it shows the hearts of the men who followed Christ up the mountain. Some believed Him some didn't. Some were dissatisfied with the idea of eating His flesh and drinking His blood. They were all of them seeking something some sought Christ, others how to work the works of God.

Let me refer back to the entirety of John 6:1-70 as a whole, hit on your statements above and build my view a bit more if your interested in reading. People followed him up the mountain because they saw his miracles (6:2). We see there were 5,000 plus interested in Jesus (6:10). We do not know the exact hearts of these people, because John is not clear their motives. The point in the two miracles in John 6 (feeding 5000 and walking on water) is to give validity to Jesus as the Son of God (John 20:31). That’s the forest, but we are noticing some of the large trees, so to speak, when we talk about people’s motives. The theme of John’s Gospel is people are darkness and Jesus is light, keep that in mind ( Chapter 1:1-18). With that said we can progress to our section in John after the two miracles starting in 6:22. Jesus started off with over 5,000 people and by the end of our section He has 11 and Judas the devil (6:66). Many of the so-called disciples you mentioned gave up on him and the head count dropped significantly from 5,000 to 11 and a straggler. Its safe to say most left, few stayed, and possibly only the 12 disciples. Notice comments Jesus made about the people throughout the chapter:

6:26, “Truly, truly, I say to you, you are seeking me not because you saw signs, but because you ate your fill of loaves.”

We have some (still a large crowd 6:22) who continue after Jesus who are doing so with wrong motives. They wanted Jesus to feed them more. They missed the point of the signs, that is to reveal who Jesus was, their true bread. We don’t know what happened to the others of the 5,000 or how they felt about Jesus but the few who we see seeking him the next day are doing so wrongly. Jesus, in His unique and awesome way revealed who He was and basically called these “next day seekers” to believe in Him (meaning seek Him personally through faith). Their response was that they wanted what He was telling them (6:34). Jesus responded to that by telling them that if they believe they will have life. This brings us to our next negative comment:

6:36, “But I said to you that you have seen me and yet do not believe.”

All of these people and all of these signs, still met with unbelief.

Probably most of His target audience is Jewish people, so here I would agree with you. Especially in 6:41-59 where John specifically shows the Jews response (6:41, 52). At any rate, your are correct in saying that the people did not totally understand the language Jesus used here when He was talking about eating His flesh as well as the rest of his teaching in the chapter. John said, “When many of his disciples heard I, they said, ‘This is a hard saying, who can listen to it” and later “After this MANY of his disciples turned back and no longer walked with Him.”

With all that said, I think our discussion on the passage leads to the conclusion that MOST of the 5,000 abandoned Christ. Possibly all but the 12. That casts a darkness on mankind and light on Christ because He is the Light and the Truth. Men don’t come to the light (John 3:19-20), but the ones granted do because God in some way (Im not even calling it regeneration here) defeats that blindness. I think the passage hints some things that leads men out of darkness and to the Light. 1. The Father’s drawing and teaching (6:44-45) in the working of the Spirit through words of Christ (6:63). We have to ask why in all the hard teachings the 12 decided to stay. Judas was a late straggler, yes, but why in all the confusion did the 11 disciples believe (6:67-69)? Where did that knowledge and understanding of who Jesus really is come from? I’d link that back to verse 45, God the Father gave that to them and to a few others, MOST missed it.

 

[zrs6v4]

Some were disciples other than the twelve. I find that Christ spoke to some with clarity and some couldn't understand it anyway He said it. The reason some didn't understand is because they didn't have a clue who He really was, even if He had told them. Most of them if not all were Jews Blinded because of a Prophecy by Isaiah. These Jews were the only ones who were blinded so that the Gentiles could be grafted in. He did say no one could come to Him unless it was granted by the Father.

I would agree with a lot of what you said here because chapter 12 and like the first 6 books of the Bible touch on this Isaiah passage showing God’s purpose in the Jews. That is that God willed Himself to be rejected by His own people as their King so that they would murder Him and allow propitiation to be made for all people groups (Jews and Gentiles). I do not think John 6 is limiting Jesus teaching about coming to Him to Jews, although that was primarily His target audience. I think both Jews and Gentiles need to be drawn alike although ironically Jews are the hardest due to the position they are in before God having so much information and such a great deal of blindness.

I do not believe election insures Salvation and have never seen any real proof of any Gentile ever being elect from before the foundation of the world

Fair enough. This actually would be a good topic to discuss. I’ll try to understand your points below and respond.

Look again at;

Eph 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:

Ephesians was written to Saints and the Faithful in Christ which nullifies the claim about Eph. 1:4 because like the verse says those this letter was intended for were actually already in Christ. It is not about the so called lost elect before Salvation. The part about "before the foundation of the world" pertains to those who are and would be "in Christ" like those this letter was written to.

Paul was telling them they were elect just like the Jew In Christ.

There really is no other way to explain it with out avoiding who the letter is addressing and those words "in Christ" This is the only way a Gentile can be elect. I know Calvinism says differently but only because they failed to take into account to whom Ephesians was addressed to.

Let me make sure I understand you here. You are saying Ephesians 1:4-5 means that Gentiles are chosen before the foundation of the world and predestined for salvation (adoption and sons) because they were in Christ? You may want to explain a little better to me because it seems like you are saying the prerequisite of being predestined and chosen is for God to look into the future and elect based on seeing a future faithfulness of a Gentile.

I know my reply includes Ephesians 1 but you have to remember there is only one doctrine that tells us all we need. that is the gospel it self.
Burried with Christ. Dying with Christ. and being raised with Christ.
MB

Its fine to quote other Scripture but a lot of times I see Scriptures being drop bombed all over the place and never discussed. I believe our theology should not be based on a single passage but on the whole counsel of God, but if we want to be faithful we must be careful with all passages and deal the best we can with them individually before assuming things into them and bringing our agendas on them. If we do that our theology will harmoniously come together naturally as we let Scripture connect itself rather than us trying to forcefully connect it in areas it shouldn't be. I’d be glad to discuss Ephesians 1 as a whole, but I don’t want to skip around from passage to passage without getting anywhere. At the end, if we both are as faithful to the text as we know how (by relying on the Spirit to teach) and we still disagree then we can just let it go as long as we are convinced by Scripture, not emotional attachment to our theology (God help us )

 

[percho]

The scriptures do not show man unable to believe, the scriptures clearly show that men first believe and afterward receive the Spirit. You are unwilling to receive this simple truth from scripture. I will pray that you be delivered from these chains of ignorance that you are bound by. I will try to help you.

Paul

Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did ignorantly in unbelief. 1 Tim 1:13

At that time, do you think that Paul thought what he was doing was according to the truth of the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob?

Was it not his ignorance of the truth that caused him to be in unbelief?

Was he deceived? Who do you think deceived him?

Same verse from above from YLT: who before was speaking evil, and persecuting, and insulting, but I found kindness, because, being ignorant, I did [it] in unbelief,

And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; [Even] the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. John 14:16,17

For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. Rom 11:25


Did the Spirit of truth remove the blindness of unbelief from the Israelite, Paul, unto belief for the purpose of God?

Or did Paul decide for himself that he had been wrong and decided for himself that he would become a believer?