Transubstantion

[Salty]

1/3 of Roman Catholics believe that when a priest bless the elements - they actually become the blood and flesh of Jesus.

Many Protestants (and Baptists - among others) believe the bread and juice are simply symbols of Christ
So is that belief simply a metaphor or is transubstantiation actually a Biblical belief.
Transubstantiation and Jesus' words at the last supper

In the story of this link - why did the bread and wine not transform after the blessing of the priest?
Communion - Roman Catholic Doctrine

So, lets have some good discussion on this.

Disclaimer - this is a C vs A Free thread

 

[Cathode]

In Protestantism, Communion is just symbolic and remains as bread and wine.

In Catholicism the Eucharist is Jesus Himself come in the flesh to have Communion with us in Spirit and in Truth.

We aren’t interested in Communion with just bread and wine, these do not give life, only Jesus Himself in Covenant by eating His Flesh and drinking His Blood as He told us to.

 

[Walter]

In Protestantism, Communion is just symbolic and remains as bread and wine.

In Catholicism the Eucharist is Jesus Himself come in the flesh to have Communion with us in Spirit and in Truth.

We aren’t interested in Communion with just bread and wine, these do not give life, only Jesus Himself in Covenant by eating His Flesh and drinking His Blood as He told us to.

Luke 24:30-31
He sat down to eat with them, took the bread, and said the blessing; then he broke the bread and gave it to them. Then their eyes were opened and they recognized him

 

[Salty]

I
In Catholicism the Eucharist is Jesus Himself come in the flesh to have Communion with us in Spirit and in Truth.

We aren’t interested in Communion with just bread and wine, these do not give life, only Jesus Himself in Covenant by eating His Flesh and drinking His Blood as He told us to.

1) So, what Scripture do you have to back up your two statements

2) and what about that bread and wine that did not transform???

 

[Cathode]

1) So, what Scripture do you have to back up your two statements

“ My Flesh is real food and my blood is real drink “

“ He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood, abides in me and I in him. “

“ Take this all of you and eat it, this is my Body “

“ Take this all of you and drink of it, this is the cup of my blood, the blood of the New and Everlasting Covenant “

If the Eucharist isn’t Jesus, there is no Communion . Any pagan could make bread and wine one with themselves. How is it “Communion “, if it isn’t Jesus Himself. The mere husks of bread and wine will not satisfy you, only Jesus flesh and blood will. Take and eat, take and drink.

Jesus was never just meant for Apostolic times, He makes Himself present fully to all His sheep personally down the ages in this humble loving way. Covenant Communion where we abide in him and He abides in us when eat His flesh and drink His blood.

2) and what about that bread and wine that did not transform???

All outward appearance and examination will reveal nothing.

No probe of science has ever entered the realm of Faith. You may enter freely if you believe, but science will not bear you over the wall to this feast.
You need only believe Jesus words, let this be your only proof.

If you are waiting for scientific proof before you believe, you will never believe, where is the Faith in that.

You believe Jesus walked on water, transformed water into wine, healed the sick and raised the dead by the power of His Word, did science prove this to you, or do you believe this in Faith?

The condition for those who would enter this Covenant feast, is that they wear the garment of Faith, without it, they can not be there.

Trust Jesus words.

“ My Flesh is real food and my blood is real drink “

“ He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood, abides in me and I in Him “

“ This is my Body “

“ This is the cup of my blood “

Believe Jesus words over all else.

 

[Salty]

can you provide the scripture references for post # 5?

 

[Cathode]

can you provide the scripture references for post # 5?

Sorry, quoted by memory.

John 6 I’m pretty sure, Matthew and Mark I think.

 

[AustinC]

*Luke 22:14-23*
And when the hour came, he reclined at table, and the apostles with him. And he said to them, “I have earnestly desired to eat this Passover with you before I suffer. For I tell you I will not eat it until it is fulfilled in the kingdom of God.” And he took a cup, and when he had given thanks he said, “Take this, and divide it among yourselves. For I tell you that from now on I will not drink of the fruit of the vine until the kingdom of God comes.” And he took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it and gave it to them, saying, “This is my body, which is given for you. Do this in remembrance of me.” And likewise the cup after they had eaten, saying, “This cup that is poured out for you is the new covenant in my blood. But behold, the hand of him who betrays me is with me on the table. For the Son of Man goes as it has been determined, but woe to that man by whom he is betrayed!” And they began to question one another, which of them it could be who was going to do this.

Jesus was having the Seder meal with his disciples. He changed the Seder to show his disciples that he was the Lamb that was slain. When the disciples went through the Seder, they were to remember him as the Lamb whose blood saved the chosen people of the Promise and whose body given for the chosen kept the firstborn from being killed.
The real blood and body was sacrificed on the cross and enacted the New Covenant.
The eating of the supper is a Remembrance for all of us who are the children of the Promise, just as the Passover was a Jewish remembrance of God's deliverance from Egypt.
The language of Jesus is metaphor not literal. It is showing us that the Passover was a foreshadowing of the Cross.

 

[Cathode]

*Luke 22:14-23*
And when the hour came, he reclined at table, and the apostles with him. And he said to them, “I have earnestly desired to eat this Passover with you before I suffer. For I tell you I will not eat it until it is fulfilled in the kingdom of God.” And he took a cup, and when he had given thanks he said, “Take this, and divide it among yourselves. For I tell you that from now on I will not drink of the fruit of the vine until the kingdom of God comes.” And he took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it and gave it to them, saying, “This is my body, which is given for you. Do this in remembrance of me.” And likewise the cup after they had eaten, saying, “This cup that is poured out for you is the new covenant in my blood. But behold, the hand of him who betrays me is with me on the table. For the Son of Man goes as it has been determined, but woe to that man by whom he is betrayed!” And they began to question one another, which of them it could be who was going to do this.

Jesus was having the Seder meal with his disciples. He changed the Seder to show his disciples that he was the Lamb that was slain. When the disciples went through the Seder, they were to remember him as the Lamb whose blood saved the chosen people of the Promise and whose body given for the chosen kept the firstborn from being killed.
The real blood and body was sacrificed on the cross and enacted the New Covenant.
The eating of the supper is a Remembrance for all of us who are the children of the Promise, just as the Passover was a Jewish remembrance of God's deliverance from Egypt.
The language of Jesus is metaphor not literal. It is showing us that the Passover was a foreshadowing of the Cross.

Jesus said “ This is my Body “ not ‘ this means my body ‘.

Jesus flesh is real food and His blood real drink. And says that we must eat His flesh and drink His blood to abide in Him and He in us. No metaphors about it.

This is Covenant Communion between us and Jesus.

People are refusing His table, they do not believe His flesh is real food and blood is real drink.
It’s a hard teaching, but it forces a supernatural act of faith in Jesus words, or it becomes a stumbling block that people can not go further.

“ Lord, to whom could we go, you have the words of everlasting life “

Supernatural faith granted by The Father. It is The Father that puts the garment of faith on the son before the feast.
Many insist on eating the husks of bread and wine in a far off land, but should be seriously thinking the better of it and going back to The Fathers House for the true feast.

Jesus flesh is real food and His blood is real drink, believe it.

The Eucharist is Jesus personally coming to us in Holy Communion.

 

[Cathode]

Many make their theological excuses for not attending the feast at all, and many try to attend without the garment of Faith.

But to take your place you must believe Jesus words first, then you must eat Jesus flesh and drink His blood.
“Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.”

“ He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood, abides in me and I in him. “

“ My Flesh is real food and my blood is real drink “

Hear His words and believe, then eat and drink lest the journey be too long for you.

 

[AustinC]

Jesus said “ This is my Body “ not ‘ this means my body ‘.

Jesus flesh is real food and His blood real drink. And says that we must eat His flesh and drink His blood to abide in Him and He in us. No metaphors about it.

This is Covenant Communion between us and Jesus.

People are refusing His table, they do not believe His flesh is real food and blood is real drink.
It’s a hard teaching, but it forces a supernatural act of faith in Jesus words, or it becomes a stumbling block that people can not go further.

“ Lord, to whom could we go, you have the words of everlasting life “

Supernatural faith granted by The Father. It is The Father that puts the garment of faith on the son before the feast.
Many insist on eating the husks of bread and wine in a far off land, but should be seriously thinking the better of it and going back to The Fathers House for the true feast.

Jesus flesh is real food and His blood is real drink, believe it.

The Eucharist is Jesus personally coming to us in Holy Communion.

I know what Jesus said.
John, in Revelation, says a dragon tried to kill a woman and two beasts came to cause people to worship the dragon. Was John being absolutely literal?
Jesus makes his statement about the bread being his body and the wine being his body within the statement of "do this in remembrance of me." He is also going through a symbolic Seder meal that is full of Passover symbolism when he changes the Seder meal to tell his disciples that he is the the true Passover Lamb that was slain.

Now, I know you have a lifetime of Church tradition that you cannot overcome. You have a large Roman Catholic obstacle that tells you, you must understand Jesus words to be literal. Your tradition will not allow you to see Jesus using figurative language and your conscience leans hard to your tradition rather than actually study the Bible. Therefore, I leave you to cling to your tradition without question. For myself, I recognize the text and the Jesus use of figurative language. Jesus used illustration all the time in parables where his teaching wasn't literal, so to pick bread is literal human flesh and wine is literal human blood out of all of Jesus words seems to be poor exegesis. It also leads to graceless theology, which truly is a red flag regarding salvation.

 

[AustinC]

Many make their theological excuses for not attending the feast at all, and many try to attend without the garment of Faith.

But to take your place you must believe Jesus words first, then you must eat Jesus flesh and drink His blood.
“Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.”

“ He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood, abides in me and I in him. “

“ My Flesh is real food and my blood is real drink “

Hear His words and believe, then eat and drink lest the journey be too long for you.

Do you see your graceless doctrine of salvation in your own words?
You have cast away grace and replaced it with legal salvation through the human performance of works.
In fact, God is hamstrung and cannot save until you do what you MUST. Only then can God act.
Moreso, you quote a verse from Revelation 3 that has nothing to do with salvation and you make Jesus a passive person, unable to save until the human opens the door of their heart. (Notice that you don't take Rev 3:20 literally, but you take the bread turning to human flesh and blood turning to human blood as being literal. Ultimately you are all over the place and thus you are quite confused.

 

[Salty]

can you provide the scripture references for post # 5?

Still waiting on the Scripture - and just the name of the book is not sufficient.
Lets thy Book - chapter - verse (es) and more than just one would be great!

John 10:7 says “I am the door of the sheep”
Do you believe that Jesus is physically a door (w/a doorknob)
or could that verse be a metaphor?
How about Psalms - where we read “The Lord is my rock.

 

[Cathode]

I know what Jesus said.
John, in Revelation, says a dragon tried to kill a woman and two beasts came to cause people to worship the dragon. Was John being absolutely literal?
Jesus makes his statement about the bread being his body and the wine being his body within the statement of "do this in remembrance of me." He is also going through a symbolic Seder meal that is full of Passover symbolism when he changes the Seder meal to tell his disciples that he is the the true Passover Lamb that was slain.

The ancient Passover lamb was the prefigurement of Christ in the new covenant. The ancient Passover lamb had to be eaten, and so Christ the new Passover Lamb also has to be eaten unto salvation.
“ He who eats me will live because of me”

“ He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has Eternal Life, and I will raise him up on the last day “

“ Unless you eat the flesh of the son of man, and drink His blood, you have no life in you “

Without the Eucharist, there is no salvation. It is Jesus flesh and blood that gives life to our flesh and blood unto resurrection and Salvation.

“ I am the living bread that came down from heaven. Whoever eats of this bread will live forever; and the bread that I will give for the life of the world is my flesh.”

It is Jesus flesh and blood that gives life, bread and wine do not.

The whole point of the sacrifice was so we could receive life by eating Jesus flesh and blood in Covenant Communion and be freed of the tyranny of sin and death.

Now, I know you have a lifetime of Church tradition that you cannot overcome. You have a large Roman Catholic obstacle that tells you, you must understand Jesus words to be literal. Your tradition will not allow you to see Jesus using figurative language and your conscience leans hard to your tradition rather than actually study the Bible. Therefore, I leave you to cling to your tradition without question. For myself, I recognize the text and the Jesus use of figurative language. Jesus used illustration all the time in parables where his teaching wasn't literal, so to pick bread is literal human flesh and wine is literal human blood out of all of Jesus words seems to be poor exegesis. It also leads to graceless theology, which truly is a red flag regarding salvation.

Every time Jesus says to us in Scripture to eat His flesh and drink His blood to have life, is Jesus knocking on the door and many keep Jesus locked out. Ignoring His voice.
They do not believe Jesus flesh is real food and blood real drink, they refuse to sup with Him and He with them.
They hardened their hearts to Jesus words in Scripture, such that His words are background noise long devoid of impact.

Jesus says “ This is my Body “ , they say ‘ no it isn’t ‘

Jesus says “ This is the cup of my Blood “ , they say ‘ no it’s not ‘.

Jesus says “ My Flesh is real food and my Blood real drink “, they say ‘no it isn’t ‘.

You talk about a graceless theology, I’d be more concerned about a faithless theology that lives in practical denial of Jesus own words, and refuses His command to eat His flesh and drink His blood.

 

[Salty]

Still waiting on the Scripture - and just the name of the book is not sufficient.
Lets give thy Book - chapter - verse (es) and more than just one would be great!

Cathode
If you don't have any verse - just say so

 

[Cathode]

Moreso, you quote a verse from Revelation 3 that has nothing to do with salvation and you make Jesus a passive person, unable to save until the human opens the door of their heart.

Or your theology on free will is wrong and Scripture is plainly telling you that, but you are falling back on Baptist traditions.

 

[Cathode]

Cathode
If you don't have any verse - just say so

Verse, no. I have been quoting from memory mostly. I’d have to hunt through for verse numbers, it’s not that easy for me.

 

[AustinC]

The ancient Passover lamb was the prefigurement of Christ in the new covenant. The ancient Passover lamb had to be eaten, and so Christ the new Passover Lamb also has to be eaten unto salvation.
“ He who eats me will live because of me”

“ He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has Eternal Life, and I will raise him up on the last day “

“ Unless you eat the flesh of the son of man, and drink His blood, you have no life in you “

Without the Eucharist, there is no salvation. It is Jesus flesh and blood that gives life to our flesh and blood unto resurrection and Salvation.

“ I am the living bread that came down from heaven. Whoever eats of this bread will live forever; and the bread that I will give for the life of the world is my flesh.”

It is Jesus flesh and blood that gives life, bread and wine do not.

The whole point of the sacrifice was so we could receive life by eating Jesus flesh and blood in Covenant Communion and be freed of the tyranny of sin and death.



Every time Jesus says to us in Scripture to eat His flesh and drink His blood to have life, is Jesus knocking on the door and many keep Jesus locked out. Ignoring His voice.
They do not believe Jesus flesh is real food and blood real drink, they refuse to sup with Him and He with them.
They hardened their hearts to Jesus words in Scripture, such that His words are background noise long devoid of impact.

Jesus says “ This is my Body “ , they say ‘ no it isn’t ‘

Jesus says “ This is the cup of my Blood “ , they say ‘ no it’s not ‘.

Jesus says “ My Flesh is real food and my Blood real drink “, they say ‘no it isn’t ‘.

You talk about a graceless theology, I’d be more concerned about a faithless theology that lives in practical denial of Jesus own words, and refuses His command to eat His flesh and drink His blood.

Cathode, the meat Jesus and the disciples ate at Passover every year was not the actual Passover Lamb from the days of slavery in Egypt. The meal called them to...remembrance.
So it is with the Lord's supper. It's a call to remembrance. Jesus even tells you that upfront. The figurative language is oozing from Jesus as he connects the Passover Lamb to Himself and the New Covenant to His sacrificial death, which purchased us, the firstborn of God. We are the Levitical line of Christ. Priests under the High Priest.

 

[Salty]

Cathode, the meat Jesus and the disciples ate ..

But he has Scripture to back it up! He said it is somewhere in the Gospels

 

[RighteousnessTemperance&]

Still waiting on the Scripture - and just the name of the book is not sufficient.
Lets thy Book - chapter - verse (es) and more than just one would be great!

See John 6:48-58 below, which the controversy centers around. Cathode quoted 6:55 &56 (in bold), but then cited the entire chapter giving broad context (see post #7, which created a link).

48 I am that bread of life.

49 Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.

50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.

51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

52 The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat?

53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.

54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

55 For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.

56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.

57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.

58 This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.