Trinity United Church of Christ

[Rufus_1611]

Is TUCC a Christian organization?

Is it Christian to have a black nationalist "About Us" statement as described here --> http://www.tucc.org/about.htm.

Is the Religious Coalition for Reproductive Choice, an organization who "safeguards the constitutional right to abortion", a Christian entity ? And if TUCC is a member of this organization does this enhance or take away from their Christian witness?

Finally, is it Christian to offer a sodomite scholarship for sodomite seminarians?http://www.scc.net/~t-bonham/EDLINKS.HTM.

Please comment and add anything else you find about this church that is worthy of discussion.

 

[Joseph M. Smith]

While there would likely be a number of points in Trinity's set of values with which most of us on the BB would disagree, it is hard to quarrel with their ten-point vision and with the multitude of ministries they offer. It is a congregation of the United Church of Christ, a center-to-left mainline denomination (I think it may in fact be their largest congregation), and Jeremiah Wright is an extraordinary preacher by anyone's standards. I have heard him on a couple of occasions.

I suspect that you are raising questions about this church because of Barack Obama's membership there, right? Perfectly legitimate arena of research. I do notice that Mr. Obama expresses his faith in very evangelical terms, speaking about giving his life to Christ and about making a decision by responding to an invitation given in worship.

As for the RCRC ... well, I too have problems with it, even though it is headed by one of my colleagues, a DC Baptist pastor. But when I was serving as a pastor, we tested some of its educational material with our youth, and found it quite useful and well-structured. That does not mean we bought into the entire package of what the group stands for.

The scholarship you refer to appears to be one offered not by Trinity UCC, but by the denomination in general. I am neither attacking nor defending it, just clarifying its origin.

 

[Rufus_1611]

While there would likely be a number of points in Trinity's set of values with which most of us on the BB would disagree, it is hard to quarrel with their ten-point vision and with the multitude of ministries they offer. It is a congregation of the United Church of Christ, a center-to-left mainline denomination (I think it may in fact be their largest congregation), and Jeremiah Wright is an extraordinary preacher by anyone's standards. I have heard him on a couple of occasions.

I suspect that you are raising questions about this church because of Barack Obama's membership there, right? Perfectly legitimate arena of research. I do notice that Mr. Obama expresses his faith in very evangelical terms, speaking about giving his life to Christ and about making a decision by responding to an invitation given in worship.

As for the RCRC ... well, I too have problems with it, even though it is headed by one of my colleagues, a DC Baptist pastor. But when I was serving as a pastor, we tested some of its educational material with our youth, and found it quite useful and well-structured. That does not mean we bought into the entire package of what the group stands for.

The scholarship you refer to appears to be one offered not by Trinity UCC, but by the denomination in general. I am neither attacking nor defending it, just clarifying its origin.

Yes. I am asking because of Obama's claim of Christianity. Thank you for your comments, they were most helpful.

 

[Jack Matthews]

Did you ask the same of George W. Bush's church, as a result of his claims to Christianity? With the exception of the African-American statement, I think you'll find the churches he's attended (infrequently, I might add) to be gay friendly and pro-choice.

 

[Rufus_1611]

Did you ask the same of George W. Bush's church, as a result of his claims to Christianity? With the exception of the African-American statement, I think you'll find the churches he's attended (infrequently, I might add) to be gay friendly and pro-choice.

I already know W isn't a Christian, now I'm curious about this Barack Hussein Obama guy.

 

[Jack Matthews]

Statement from Trinity's website:

"Trinity United Church of Christ has been called by God to be a congregation that is not ashamed of the gospel of Jesus Christ and that does not apologize for its African roots! As a congregation of baptized believers, we are called to be agents of liberation not only for the oppressed, but for all of God’s family. We, as a church family, acknowledge, that we will, building on this affirmation of "who we are" and "whose we are," call men, women, boys and girls to the liberating love of Jesus Christ, inviting them to become a part of the church universal, responding to Jesus’ command that we go into all the world and make disciples!"

It seems they have also adopted the full confession of faith of the United Church of Christ, which is consistent with the Biblical definition of the term Christian, from I John 4:1-3.

http://www.ucc.org

I'm not familiar with the UCC, and I'm guessing that it is made up mainly of African-American churches that are motivated by their faith to social action.

 

[Rufus_1611]

Statement from Trinity's website:

"Trinity United Church of Christ has been called by God to be a congregation that is not ashamed of the gospel of Jesus Christ and that does not apologize for its African roots! As a congregation of baptized believers, we are called to be agents of liberation not only for the oppressed, but for all of God’s family. We, as a church family, acknowledge, that we will, building on this affirmation of "who we are" and "whose we are," call men, women, boys and girls to the liberating love of Jesus Christ, inviting them to become a part of the church universal, responding to Jesus’ command that we go into all the world and make disciples!"

How does the above statement reconcile with their promotion of killing babies, racism and associating to a parent group that gives out scholarships to sodomite seminarians? Are these traits of a church that has been "called by God"?

 

[Jack Matthews]

I suppose you would have to ask them. I'd suggest sending the pastor an email, with the slanted wording that you have entered here, and see how he responds.

I wouldn't think churches that buy into the corporate robbery of the middle class, or who label the social actions to help the poor and oppressed as "liberal politics" to be able to reconcile their actions with Christ's sermon on the mount, but we have a whole movement labelled as the political "Religious Right" that buys into that.

I guess it's because we're human and we depend completely on God's grace and mercy to save us, rather than on our own works of doctrinal purity and attempts at living up to our own definitions of righteousness.

 

[James_Newman]

So you're not willing to make a moral judgment on murdering babies? I think it should be patently obvious that abortion is sin, but I guess I'm just old fashioned. Maybe they really have been called by God to help provide cheap abortions to poor black folks.

 

[Joseph M. Smith]

I'm not familiar with the UCC, and I'm guessing that it is made up mainly of African-American churches that are motivated by their faith to social action.

The United Church of Christ is not mainly African-American churches, though they are a significant component in the denomination. It is a merger of mergers. It blended the Congregational Christian Church (itself a blend of old New England congregationalism, the church of the Puritans, plus a smaller restorationism church) with the Evangelical and Reformed Church, largely German and Calvinistic in background. Quite a mix.

The African-American presence began in the mid-19th Century, in the Congregationalist portion of the UCC's background, as it was the Congregational Church that took the lead in building a series of colleges and other schools across the south in order to educate the freed slaves. Fisk University in Nashville and Howard University in Washington were among those schools. (I have always been a little amused, when participating in worship or preaching at Howard University's Chapel, that the stained-glass windows of this African-American school show so many English Puritans with their funny hats!).

When the Congregational Christian and E&R merger took place, the denomination adopted the name "United Church of Christ" because they wanted to be in the forefront of the then-popular ecumenical movement, and hoped that other groups would join them and heal the fragmentation of American Protestantism. It didn't happen, of course, and most likely never will. But their name remains as a witness to ecumenical hopes. They have had some discussions about merger with the Disciples of Christ, aka Christian Church, which is, like Baptists, an immersion-baptism-upon-profession-of-faith denomination. I have a hard time seeing how that merger would work.

I do know that in some sections of the country they have a time explaining that they are emphatically NOT the "Church of Christ", the folks who are so radically congregational (with a little "c") and who do not use musical instruments in worship!

 

[BobRyan]

hmmm very informative.

Now to test my theory with the TUCC example.

My claim is that no Christian church would dare embrace the abominations of Lev 18 (gay agenda for example) without FIRST rejecting the Genesis account in Gen 1-3.

My second point is like unto it -- no CHRISTIAN church would abandon it's stand on Genesis 1-3 without first rejecting Christ's Creation Sabbath commandment in Exodus 20:8-11.

I will look for the TUCC statements of faith - but so far this rule has held for Christians.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Jack Matthews]

hmmm very informative.

Now to test my theory with the TUCC example.

My claim is that no Christian church would dare embrace the abominations of Lev 18 (gay agenda for example) without FIRST rejecting the Genesis account in Gen 1-3.

My second point is like unto it -- no CHRISTIAN church would abandon it's stand on Genesis 1-3 without first rejecting Christ's Creation Sabbath commandment in Exodus 20:8-11.

I will look for the TUCC statements of faith - but so far this rule has held for Christians.

In Christ,

Bob

Bob--probably a question for another thread, since I don't want to hijack this one, but I have trouble with your attempt to define a Christian church with Old Testament scripture, with no reference to Christ whatsoever. Christian churches are not defined by stands on Old Testament passages, they are defined solely by their acceptance of the exclusivity of Christ which is clearly defined in the New Testament, in John 1:1-14; John 14:6, John 15:9-14, Colossians 1:15-20, I John 1:8-10, 4:1-3, 4:7-12.

It was Paul and Silas who told the Philippian jailer, "Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved, you and your household." (Acts 16:31) I think we go to an awful lot of trouble to try to point out the things in others that don't set well with us, and attempt to consign them to hell because they have a different perspective on the way the world is, and as a result, that causes them to hold a different view of the scripture than we do.

The position of this particular church, Trinity UCC, does not appear to me to meet the definition of "racist." A racist is someone that hates someone else simply because of their race. Promoting the interests of individuals with a common racial heritage, particularly when they are redemptive in nature and intended to enhance life, isn't racist. I avoid making comments about, or being critical of, movements within the African-American community, simply because of past history. Even in this day and age, right here in this city, I've witnessed deliberate attempts to deny them equal opportunity, compounded with the poverty that is the result of a long history of such attempts, there is no way that I can ever achieve any kind of an understanding of what African-Americans have endured, continue to endure, or the marks that such actions have left on their collective community. For me, that's a non-issue.

As to their position on homosexuality and abortion, well, before I blast it, I think I might want to read a bit more, ask a few direct questions and perhaps even read Senator Obama's book before considering myself qualified to render a judgement, and even then, perhaps only a personal one rendered with care, so that I do not violate the scriptural principles in Matthew 5-7, set down by Christ himself.

 

[tragic_pizza]

Utterly fascinating how everything turns into a polemic about abortion and homosexuality.

How relaxing to know that there are no other important issues that the church needs to pay attention to.

 

[James_Newman]

There are many important issues that churches need to address. The question is, can a church with a baby-murdering, sodomite beam in its eye really be counted on to correctly address socio-political motes? If a church is wrong on these basic biblical doctrines, what do you suppose it has got right? This salt has lost it's saltness.

 

[Rufus_1611]

Utterly fascinating how everything turns into a polemic about abortion and homosexuality.

How relaxing to know that there are no other important issues that the church needs to pay attention to.

What I find fascinating is a race-baiter leaving off the race issue. Considering your past comments on racism I would think we'd be aligned on this one or do you only speak out against white racism?

Those are three significant issues to Christianity, in my view. How does a church advocate for racism, acts as an accomplice to the murder of innocents, and an encourager of sodomy and still call themselves a Christian church? Would Jesus Christ have promoted racism, would Jesus Christ have encouraged abortion, would Jesus Christ have encouraged scholarships for sodomites?

 

[tragic_pizza]

Jesus Christ would have loved all people.

 

[Rufus_1611]

Jesus Christ would have loved all people.

And supporting the killing of babies is an expression of His love?

 

[tragic_pizza]

Keeping things on a human level, and not on the plane of political jargon, is an expression of His love.

 

[Rufus_1611]

Keeping things on a human level, and not on the plane of political jargon, is an expression of His love.

When does the topic of baby killing exit political jargon and enter into Biblical morality?

"And they served their idols: which were a snare unto them. Yea, they sacrificed their sons and their daughters unto devils, And shed innocent blood, even the blood of their sons and of their daughters, whom they sacrificed unto the idols of Canaan: and the land was polluted with blood." - Psalm 106:36-38​

 

[tragic_pizza]

When a supposed Biblical morality ignores the human realities.