Truth - Is the Board Dirty?

SheEagle, I'm pretty sure we had this discussion when the Fundamentalist Forum was created.

The Board represents the wide diversity among born-again believers with authentic testimonies. If you don't want discussions that are inclusive of that diversity, there is a forum just for you.

Joshua

 

The motto of this board is "The Truth Shall Set You Free." Truth, as defined by the Bible, is what I am assuming is meant here, based on the verse:

JOHN 8:[32] And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

The agenda you and others try to promote on here with regards to homosexuality and abortion is not TRUTH as defined by Scripture. In fact, it is the opposite of Scriptural truth, which makes it heresy or at the very least, false doctrine by Scriptural criteria.

Scriptures are constantly listed by Bible believers here (who actually believe the WHOLE Bible is the Word of God) which refute the "doctrines" you are trying to promote here. </font>[/QUOTE]Yep. Many people here have ably defended the position that homosexual activities are sin.

There probably wouldn’t be that much discussion on a gay-oriented discussion board.

Actually, I think young people find that there are at least two sides to the issue instead of just one. Some young people are raised in very conservative churches where they only hear that homosexuality is wrong, but then later in life they face someone who has a good-sounding argument and they are unprepared to analyze what the other person is saying because they have never given the issue any thought. We are giving conservative young people the opportunity to think and prepare themselves for what they will likely face in the “world”. Now there are others who receive their education about homosexuality from school health classes and television (“Will and Grace”?) and believe there is nothing wrong with homosexual activity. They may wander onto the Baptist Board to discover that there is much more to the issue than “not that there’s anything wrong with that”.

Personally, I don’t get offended by pro-homosexuality posts. I’ve been through these discussions many times. I have two friends who identify themselves as homosexual and we discuss the issue from time to time. It is something that believers need to be realistic about. We don’t need to hide from the issues.

As for abortion, I don’t recall many posts on the subject. Is it really that commonly discussed?

No… I think it’s an opportunity for Baptists to demonstrate that we can talk and reason together in a civil manner, letting the scripture inform our opinions.

But that’s the rub…

If I were charged with eliminating every post on Baptist Board that did not line up with my understanding of scripture, there would not be nearly as many posts! Unfortunately SheEagle, you would have many of your posts edited/deleted as well.

The great thing about BaptistBoard is that it attracts people from many different backgrounds and slants. In the middle of the sometimes heated discussions, truth is often uncovered. What could be a better place for believers to be exposed to minority opinions? There will always be many people to argue the majority opinion.

BaptistBoard is serving everyone by allowing these discussions.

 

In reply to Baptist Believer's statement, "BaptistBoard is serving everyone by allowing these discussions."

While there are elements in your argument that are valid this last one is the very thing that those who promote perversion are looking for. They are looking for a forum in which they can dialogue and keep the topic in front of people on a regular basis. In doing this they wear away the natural revulsion and bring more and more acceptance to their perversion.
Now they have a spot in a Fundamental Baptist forum.

 

Actually, I'm not aware that any of the explicitly pro-gay baptists on the Board have ever, once, raised the issue of homosexuality. In fact, I generally wait until I'm really fed up with the anti-gay rhetoric before I say anything. If anyone keeps raising the issue, it's the anti-gay crowd.

Again, I'm not the one raising the issue. As for "natural revulsion" - that seems a little silly and irrelevant. I'm sure there are plenty of things that same-sex and opposite-sex couples do in their bedrooms that I wouldn't find appealling. That's find with me. Different strokes for different folks.

Quite the contrary actually. I don't know anyone in the Fundamental Baptist Forum who is pro-gay. It's not inconceivable (and I don't monitor that forum), but it would surprise me.

Joshua

 

"So, on a discussion board, you would prefer that we baptists who are deeply offened by the strong anti-gay rhetoric simply allow it to slip by? You would prefer that seekers not know that this is a controversial issue among Christians?"

I think those who are offended by anti-gay rhetoric should be able to respond to it. That is, if people are posting hate towards gay people, those who see hate of people, as opposed to hate of sin, as a bad thing, should speak up. We should stand for responding to sin in a Christian way.

But we should not question whether homosexuality is a sin. Not if the context is one of truth. How we respond to sin and live out truth is a valid concern. Calling truth into question is something else.

And I don't think anyone is unaware that homosexuality is a controversial issue. That is different bringing that controversy here. Stiring up cotroversy just to al attention to it is not edifying. It is being contentious, and the Bible has something to say about dealing with those who are inclined to being contentious.

I think Joshua should accept that here the consensus is tha the Bible teaching does not support honosexuality. As a result, I think he should strive to encourage people to respond to Christian teaching (regardless of whether he agrees that it is christian teaching) in a christian way. Be a conscience. But not a controversialist.

 

Our culture has brought these issues to the forefront... Should Baptists hide?

Discussion of the issues helps everyone understand their position and the positions of other people. It facilitates communication.

Frankly, I am not interested in responding to the social issues of the day with a "natural revulsion". I want to be able to confront the issues with the truth of God. For the record, although I have two friends who identify themselves as homosexual and I've discussed these issues many many times, I still find the idea of homosexual activities extremely distasteful - whether male or female.

At the same time, when I was in seminary two associates of mine (both "conservative resurgence" supporters BTW), confessed to me that they thought that homosexual relations between two women was "every man's fantasy". Yet, at the same time, they were disgusted by the idea of homosexual relations between men. That told me that they did not have a "natural revulsion" for homosexual activity, they just were attracted to women. Speaking for myself, I find it *all* distasteful - and I was the one who was constantly discussing the issue with those who advocated homosexual unions.

I don't know what you mean. BaptistBoard is not a "fundamental" forum as far as I know. There is a "Fundamental Forum" here... Has it been violated?

 

She Eagle, As usual I agree with your statements about the whole word of God.

I don't know what happened between others on this board that sparked your post, not do I really want to get into that.

Just know this... I've read it, and on the subject of homosexuality there does not seem to be any ambiguity of where God stands on the issue of that sin.

It is also true that the Bible teaches to love the sinner and hate the sin. I fear this is where some people get into a little trouble. Not being able to make that destinction in their actions or attitudes.

I have a neighbor actually who is gay. He is a kind and thoughtful neighbor. He knows we are Christians. I don't want him to ever equate hatred of people with that title. There is no need to be rude to him, or hateful... What would be the attraction to becoming saved if all he ever saw was hatred? We are pro-people, anti-sin...as the Bible teaches us to be.

 

"Our culture has brought these issues to the forefront... Should Baptists hide?"

That is not the question. There are many contexts in which baptists can, and do, engage these issues. Is this one of them? Should it be? Is what Johua does really furthering what you suggest?

"Discussion of the issues helps everyone understand their position and the positions of other people. It facilitates communication."

When there is an actual open question, yes. I suggest that there is a consensus on the BB. That being the case it is not communication, but contention that is promoted.

If Joshua wishes to be constructive, let him help us address the issue in a way that is consistentwith Christian charity.

Again, there are contexts in which information can be passedon and discusion carried forward on debatable issues. But of there is a consensus then the debate is over. That not all are convinced does not mean that an issue is still debatable.

I think that in the context of the existing consensus theris a role for Joshua. Attempting to defend the position that is opposd by the consensus is not it. Joshua is attempting to keep open what is here a closed question. Joshua should endeavor to be a conscientious objector in that context.

 

As everyone knows I strongly oppose those who feel homosexuality is not sin. However I donot feel this thread fits in this forum, I will have it moved to the theology and Bible study forum.
Murph

 

Answer: No, the Baptist Board is not dirty! How can you ask a question like that SheEagle911? The problem is that we allowed Baptists to stay on the board, who are way out to the left in their liberal teachings. If you ask them, they sincerely believe that they are right. In so much that they consider the majority of believers, who presents opposing views to them, uneducated (for not properly discerning the Bible), homophobic (a favorite description of those embracing the gay lifestyle), and hatemonger (because you do not love the gay brethren).

Little do they concern themselves about the fact that the majority of the believers do not preach against repentant (former) gay people but only practicing and unrepentant gay people (sinners according to the Bible). They purposefully misinterpret the Bible, quote to you scholars of their choice who incorrectly disseminate the Hebrew or Greek words in the Bible, and want you to believe that they lived in a different culture, which does not apply to us. I have read some of their argument, which they linked to off the BB, and I just didn't want to believe my eyes. I could not comprehend how on earth can anybody translate the Bible in such a way as to cater to their own lifestyle?

As it was pointed out on this and many other treads, we know who are advocating pro-gay agendas, and there is nothing new in their stand. As it was said that the seekers who come to this board needs to learn the truth, is not far from the truth. However, let me add that, it is not the truth of gay activists, but the truth of the Bible. And let us remind ourselves again what the Apostle Paul to the Romans (8:18-32) said about these things:

I don't think we need to say more. The Bible is very explicit and straight forward. This what we believe, and this is what we stand for. And again, SheEagle911, the Baptist Board is not dirty! But we have some misguided folks who think that they do the world some good by standing on their pro gay doctrine. Well, they may fool a lot of the people lots of the time, but they cannot fool all of the people all of the time. Again, briefly, the essence of the Bible teaching we believe in: God hates sin, but loves the sinner. Nevertheless when Jesus healed the sick, restored the sinner, He always told them: "Go your way, and sin no more." Therefore the gay people have to realize that only a repentant sinner can have a restored life and a subsequent relationship with God. Anything else is found in the above quoted Scripture passage. - End of preaching. This was my two cents worth.

[ October 28, 2002, 01:11 PM: Message edited by: Barnabas ]

 

What you call anti-gay and hate I would call Holiness.
Do we have anti-deceived, anti-drunks, anti-murder, anti-idolaters, anti-adulterers, anti-covetous.

1 Corinthians 6
9Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.

Why is this one sin so sanctified to you?

 

John 3v36,

If you will note, I was quoting someone else, namely, I believe, Baptist Believer.

I use quotation marks, and not the quoting formatting of the BB, so your confusion is understandable.

 

Certainly the Bible is not the easiest Book in the world to interpret, thus the many facets to even a single denomination. I think the Right can present a valid case for God being against homosexuality as a sin and I think the Left can make an equally valid case for God not seeing homosexuality as a sin in many cases.

That being the case, we then should look at what helps bring folks to Christ and what might push them away. What Biblical principals promote acceptance verses division? We can all agree that the Bible certainly does have strong language that would support division as valid. We can also see Jesus reaching out to the worst sinners in an attempt to "include".

I see many here that would most likely reach out to the homosexual but with the idea that they must then change or be rejected after some span of time after conversion. While change can occur with someone who lives in sin or with a lifestyle they hate or is shown to hate it through the Holy Spirit; there is a problem when this motif is placed on normal behavior for the homosexual. ie...behavior that is not seen as sin, behavior that is not felt as sin from the Holy Spirit.

Are their homosexuals that are released and freed from the "sin" of homosexuality? Yes... but these people are really heterosexuals that have chosen to try different things sexually which is against their natural sexual orientation. They are perverts from their heterosexual nature. But equally there are natural homosexuals that would be perverts if they switched to being heterosexuals. It is these and only these people who are at the core of most Christian pro-homosexual views. Even Jesus claimed there are people from birth that are not "normal" in sexual ways. Since original sin must be behind any abnormal development from birth or deveation after birth via chemical change, then one can't be blamed spiritually and held accountable for being homosexual, just as any other defect of the human body or mind can't be seen as a "sinner" when they have no "control" over it.

I have seen the arguments that trys to claim that the criminal can skate on the same premise as this argument, but I say that may well be true if he can't change because he has a perverted mind due to chemical or physical problems.

I don't see how Jesus could hold a true criminal by "nature" or by physical or emotional cause responsible.

It is a fact that most killers on death row suffered a serious head trauma at one time (before the murder occured). If chemical reaction has anything to do with their mental capacity, then they would be considered "natural" criminals and no longer responsible in a "sin" basis. Of course they are held liable under Human Laws and we must pen them up as a way of preventing more criminal acts but some are truly "sick" and will not be judged under the same light as someone with full faculties.

True homosexuals don't need to be penned up. They don't and can't be "cured" by medicine or a faith healer. They are no more a sinner than a person with Tourettes Syndrome (cussing up a storm using God's name in vain etc). They are no more a sinner than a person born with any other problem that orginal sin caused by perverting (as in defect) their body or their mind.

[ October 28, 2002, 05:43 PM: Message edited by: post-it ]

 

During the days of Jesus, Peter and Paul, the Greek society was all about. It was this very society in which the homosexual practice was prevelant. It seems strange to me that there was not more written in the New Testament condemning this practice, and particularly within the local assemblies. It seems that every other vice was mentioned, time and time again.

I am not supporting the gay lifestyle. I am just saying it is odd that more is not said.

A physician friend is a lesbian and has a live in lover. She grew up on a mission field with missionary parents. Her parents literally disowned her and she thereafter refused to darken a church door. I started to make personal calls on her and her friend, without condemnation. We read scripture and have a word of prayer. I am not going to say that great strides have been made, because that would be false. The thing is, they are listening and talking. I wonder what would have come of it, had I taken another approach.

Frankly, I am so busy presenting the Lord Jesus and the benefits of living for Him, I have little time to be attacking specific areas of disfellowship with Him. I believe in the long haul, one compliments the other.

Dialogue, to use the modern term, is so important, I think. This includes listening to what others have to say. In listening to them, perhaps they in turn will listen to me.

Over my years, I have seen both styles work. The hard-nosed bible thumper and the soft-spoken person of God. Who am I to say which way is the right and only way?

Cheers in Him,

Jim

[ October 28, 2002, 05:56 PM: Message edited by: Jim1999 ]

 

So, Post It,
You're saying that if a man is born a murderer or a thief or whatever, that it is then ok for them to continue because to them it is not sin?
That is what God calls having a conscience seared with a hot iron.
And you still have not explained why God judged Sodom and Gomorrah.

 

I'm pretty sure post-it said that murderers and the like should be set aside from the rest of society.

When determining earthly punishment, the issue is not sin. And really, it shouldn't be. Whatever harm comes from someone being gay, it is not a criminally punishable harm.

I believe post-it makes a clear distinction between being held accountable by society and being contrary to one's nature.

Murderers should be held accountable to society, no matter what their justification is (this is me, now, not post-it), because they have done physical harm, they have gone beyond the bounds of their freedom. Being gay doesn't do this. There is no societal debt to pay.

 

1) It is VERY debatable whether homosexuality has no impact on society.

2) It is very debatable whether things which are now viewed as not being a question of orientation or nature will never be so.

3) Determinism is not a valid way of determining what should or should not be illegal. The idea of "its my nature" is no different at bottom from "the devil made me do it". We cannot absolve people fo responsibility that way.

 

No impact on society? Well, sure - everything has an impact. I'm talking about criminally harmful. If you follow John Locke or John Rawls, then it certainly is not criminally harmful. There's a difference between not being criminally harmful and having no impact on society.

Hence the distinction of consensual "crime." Those who violate others' rights should certainly be held societally accountable for their actions. Murder is rarely consensual. Sex is decidely more often consensual. The "its my nature" argument isn't a good argument for determining legal- or illegal-ity, you're right. That's not what I was suggesting. What I'm suggesting is that sin is not and should not the basis of our earthly laws. There are many things that are sinful that should not be illegal. In fact, most sins shouldn't be considered illegal in a secular society.

But what many people around here cannot grasp is that a Christian might be able to separate earthly laws from Godly ones. Believing in the sinfulness of a particular act is not a good enough basis for legislating illegality.