SpiritualMadMan
New Member
Yes, (strict) Headmaster...
I will henceforth apply strict Metrological Precision to the 12th decimal place to any further posts.
NOT!
-
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Tulip: Limited Atonement
- Thread starter SpiritualMadMan
- Start date
Yes, (strict) Headmaster...
I will henceforth apply strict Metrological Precision to the 12th decimal place to any further posts.
NOT!
Dr. Walter
New Member
Paul says that in heaven the Son of God is seated as our High Priest demonstating the work of atonement has already been finished rather than an on going process in heaven.
Heb. 9:12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.
Heb. 10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:
12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.
14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
Absolutely!
The Father raised the Son.
The Father raised the Son "By his glory".
The Father raised the Son : "FROM, THE DEAD"
"THIS Jesus whom ye CRUCIFIED, God raised up" --- from DEATH and GRAVE.
"That SAME Jesus", "not suffered to see corruption", BUT IN BEING GLORIFIED AND GLORIOUS, "ROSE from the dead" : "IN THE FLESH".
"WHEN" was that? WHERE HAPPENED it?? HOW realised it?
When and where and how it ALL "ONCE FOR ALL", GOD TRI-UNE ACTING, WAS BROUGHT ABOUT.
No moment later or after; no other place or world; no other manner whatsoever. It came TRUE and REAL and PERFECT and perfectED : in the FULL fellowship of GOD the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit : IN CHRIST, through Christ, "FROM THE DEAD" and death and grave.
In the Passover of Yahweh; IN and WITH and BY the 'WAVING' of the "First Sheaf _OFFERING_, BEFORE, THE LORD", the Resurrection of Christ from the dead. THAT WAS THE 'WHEN' AND THE 'WHERE' AND THE 'HOW' of Christ "into His Glory" which is the Glory of the Father as of the Son as of the Holy Spirit --- on earth, "IN THE FLESH-COMING" of Christ "from the dead" right in Joseph's grave.
'Heaven upon earth' God condescending absolutely. The Throne of God; the Right Hand of God, "a Lamb as though slain: STANDING".
As Schilder paints the picture: 'And all his sitting was a standing; and all his standing a sitting' ROYAL SEATING; CORONATION OF THE LORD AND KING.
Jesus came to STAY with us men when He came from the grave and death: "Lo! I am with you alway, unto the ends OF THE WORLD!
Jesus' Resurrection is the coming true of his assurance given in John 14 that He would come again and take us to where He is; to WHERE WE ARE IN HIM, TODAY this moment in this here life.
'The Heavenly Sanctuary' is Christ with us and us "IN HIM"; "Heavenly Sanctuary", "The Most Holy Place IS HIS NAME" Isaiah 57:15.
Jesus Christ since He resurrected from the dead in the grave of Joseph is the Exalted of God. Not merely since then; actually THEN!
HERE, is the "fullness of time" spoken of by the Scriptures : Christ raised from the dead; THEN is 'the centre of the universe'; THERE is the throne of God; THAT is the crown of the King of all heavens and earth and all that in them is.
"It is not far from you; but NEAR"-- "GOD, WITH, US"-- "IMMANUEL".
I believe no eerie false fantastic 'heaven'.
The Father raised the Son.
The Father raised the Son "By his glory".
The Father raised the Son : "FROM, THE DEAD"
"THIS Jesus whom ye CRUCIFIED, God raised up" --- from DEATH and GRAVE.
"That SAME Jesus", "not suffered to see corruption", BUT IN BEING GLORIFIED AND GLORIOUS, "ROSE from the dead" : "IN THE FLESH".
"WHEN" was that? WHERE HAPPENED it?? HOW realised it?
When and where and how it ALL "ONCE FOR ALL", GOD TRI-UNE ACTING, WAS BROUGHT ABOUT.
No moment later or after; no other place or world; no other manner whatsoever. It came TRUE and REAL and PERFECT and perfectED : in the FULL fellowship of GOD the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit : IN CHRIST, through Christ, "FROM THE DEAD" and death and grave.
In the Passover of Yahweh; IN and WITH and BY the 'WAVING' of the "First Sheaf _OFFERING_, BEFORE, THE LORD", the Resurrection of Christ from the dead. THAT WAS THE 'WHEN' AND THE 'WHERE' AND THE 'HOW' of Christ "into His Glory" which is the Glory of the Father as of the Son as of the Holy Spirit --- on earth, "IN THE FLESH-COMING" of Christ "from the dead" right in Joseph's grave.
'Heaven upon earth' God condescending absolutely. The Throne of God; the Right Hand of God, "a Lamb as though slain: STANDING".
As Schilder paints the picture: 'And all his sitting was a standing; and all his standing a sitting' ROYAL SEATING; CORONATION OF THE LORD AND KING.
Jesus came to STAY with us men when He came from the grave and death: "Lo! I am with you alway, unto the ends OF THE WORLD!
Jesus' Resurrection is the coming true of his assurance given in John 14 that He would come again and take us to where He is; to WHERE WE ARE IN HIM, TODAY this moment in this here life.
'The Heavenly Sanctuary' is Christ with us and us "IN HIM"; "Heavenly Sanctuary", "The Most Holy Place IS HIS NAME" Isaiah 57:15.
Jesus Christ since He resurrected from the dead in the grave of Joseph is the Exalted of God. Not merely since then; actually THEN!
HERE, is the "fullness of time" spoken of by the Scriptures : Christ raised from the dead; THEN is 'the centre of the universe'; THERE is the throne of God; THAT is the crown of the King of all heavens and earth and all that in them is.
"It is not far from you; but NEAR"-- "GOD, WITH, US"-- "IMMANUEL".
I believe no eerie false fantastic 'heaven'.
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BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Atoning sacrifice completed at the Cross - 1John 2:2 "He is the Atoning sacrifice for OUR sins and not for OUR sins only but for the sins fo the whole world!"
But Lev 16 full concept of atonement goes beyond "Atoning Sacrifice" -- it must include all of Christ's work as High Priest. Christ began His work as our high priest when He ascended to heaven Heb 8:1-5.
Christ was seated as our High Priest at the right hand of God in the first phase of the Heavenly sanctuary service (in the Holy Place) as we see in Hebrews 1:3 and 10:12.
He also stands at the right hand of God as we see in in Acts 7:55-56.
As our High Priest he performs his works seated as we see in Zech 6:12-13, and as the one Mediator between God and man it is Christ who serves as our "Advocate with the Father" 1John 2:1 when we sin. As Paul says in Hebrews 9 "cleansing our conscience from dead works" as He applies His blood to our cases individually.
But Lev 16 full concept of atonement goes beyond "Atoning Sacrifice" -- it must include all of Christ's work as High Priest. Christ began His work as our high priest when He ascended to heaven Heb 8:1-5.
Christ was seated as our High Priest at the right hand of God in the first phase of the Heavenly sanctuary service (in the Holy Place) as we see in Hebrews 1:3 and 10:12.
He also stands at the right hand of God as we see in in Acts 7:55-56.
As our High Priest he performs his works seated as we see in Zech 6:12-13, and as the one Mediator between God and man it is Christ who serves as our "Advocate with the Father" 1John 2:1 when we sin. As Paul says in Hebrews 9 "cleansing our conscience from dead works" as He applies His blood to our cases individually.
GE:
I aimed nothing at your preciseness or lack of preciseness; I aimed at precisely the Seventh-day Adventist error.
SpiritualMadMan
New Member
But, *why* instruct *me* I am not 7th Day...
If you are going to use soemone elses post to make a point to someone other than the original poster please say so...
Otherwise the person quoted has no choice but to assume that the response is to them...
Jesus was Sacrifice sacrificed, “once for all”. “He is Sacrifice” therefore for ever, in that “God raised from the dead … this Jesus you crucified”. “Atoning sacrifice COMPLETED at the Cross”, is never a ‘sacrifice’, again; because “Atoning sacrifice COMPLETED at the Cross”, never a ‘sacrifice’ CONTINUALLY afterwards.
Re: BR, “But Lev 16 full concept of atonement goes beyond "Atoning Sacrifice" –”
GE:
You must have said this 1000 times. I have not once seen you actually quote one word from “Lev 16” that “goes beyond "Atoning Sacrifice". “Lev 16” is OLD Testament; it CANNOT ‘go beyond "Atoning Sacrifice’ with ‘sacrifice’.
Only in Leviticus for the first time, symbolism of “full concept of atonement beyond "Atoning Sacrifice"” is mentioned, by
1) the “BRINGING” of First Sheaf and
2) presentation or “OFFERING” of First Sheaf by
3) movement or “WAVING”— WHERE?
4) “before the LORD”— RESURRECTION-LIFE in God’s immediate PRESENCE!
Re: BR, “Christ began His work as our high priest when He ascended to heaven Heb 8:1-5.”
One:
You confuse Jesus’ ascension with his exaltation.
Hebrews 8:1-5 is not a ‘parallel’ or another version of Acts 1:9 and Lk24:51.
Hebrews 8:1-5 is one ‘metaphor’ of MANY in the Letter, of the author’s for Jesus’ Resurrection!
Two:
Christ FINISHED atonement in ALL its facets AS HIGH PRIEST of Almighty God WHEN He had made Sacrifice of Himself _AND_ had RISEN from the dead!
Three:
Again you CONFUSE the INTERCESSORY work of Christ as high Priest (for his Elect only) for his work of Atonement and Reconciliation (of his Elect only) by Sacrifice AND Resurrection from the dead.
Four:
Sundry specific ‘SDA-nonsensicalness’, for one, High priest in the ‘first compartment’ of the sanctuary? Wasn’t that portfolio reserved for the most holy place that was only entered in 1844 AD?
No! Christ did not begin his work as our High Priest when He ascended to heaven.
He began officiating as our High Priest the moment and day man sinned in Eden,
and FINISHED as our sin-atoning High Priest
ONE:
by having made Sacrifice of Himself
in the Most Holy of the Full Fellowship of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,
pronouncing on the cross: “Finished”;
FOR WHICH “TRIUMPH IN IT”,
“THE LORD HEARD HIM IN THE TRUTH OF HIS SALVATION” AND
“RAISED HIM FROM THE DEAD”
“IN THE GLORY OF THE FATHER”
“AND DECLARED HIM THE SON OF GOD
WITH POWER ACCORDING TO THE SPIRIT OF HOLINESS
BY THE RESURRECTION FROM THE DEAD—
BY WHOM WE _HAVE RECEIVED_ GRACE.”
Not forty days later only… not 1814 years after…
but “WHEN”,
“GOD, RAISED HIM, FROM, THE DEAD!”
Christ was seated / crowned / exalted / enthroned
‘as our High Priest’, and King, “both Lord and Christ”
“at the right hand of God” “in heavenly position”—
“WHEN”,
“IN A MOMENT, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump”
He “in the resurrection of The Dead …
…put on immortality”—
“WHEN”, and “IN THAT”, “He…
…was RAISED…
…in incorruption …
…in GLORY…
…in POWER”—
“WHEN”,
“had been brought to pass that which is written:
Death is swallowed up in VICTORY!”
“WHEN”,
“THE LAST ADAM”, …”ROSE FROM THE DEAD” …QUICKENING SPIRIT”, Lord of our Salvation, Priest of our Protection and Safety, King of our reign and peace “WITH CHRIST …THOUSAND YEARS THIS THE FIRST RESURRECTION”.
Then STILL we must listen to BobRyan’s LIES, “As Paul says in Hebrews 9 "cleansing our conscience from dead works" as He applies His blood to our cases individually".
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Leviticus 16 DOES include a full scope for atonement - one that includes BOTH the atoning sacrifice (the sin offering slain. the Lord's goat slain) AND also includes the work of the High Priest in the Sanctuary.
In Hebrews 4, 7,8,9 etc we find Christ is NOW in heaven as our High Priest. And 1John 2:1 says that in this role He serves as our "Advocate with the Father".
Both the sin offering (atoning sacrifice) and the work of Christ as our High Priest - are described in Lev 16 in the "Day of Atonement" chapter.
Lev 16
And now the part of the Day of Atonement in Lev 16 that goes beyond the slaying of the sin offering (the Atoning Sacrifice of 1John 2:1 NIV) and gets to the part of the High Priest's ministry. Christ our High Priest - takes up His ministry in that regard when He goes to heaven Heb 8:1-5.
in Christ,
Bob
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BobRyan:
Leviticus 16 DOES include a full scope for atonement - one that includes BOTH the atoning sacrifice (the sin offering slain. the Lord's goat slain) AND also includes the work of the High Priest in the Sanctuary.
GE:
Leviticus 16 as far as it is possible for an earthly ministry to do, does indeed “include a full scope for atonement” … as Christ made fully and once for all on earth.
That POSSIBILITY for an earthly ministry and sanctuary, only reaches as far as and as “includes, the atoning SACRIFICE”— which,
One)
Is the sin offering ANIMAL “SLAIN”, which is the Lord's goat “SLAIN”, which is “the work of the High Priest” just outside the inside of the sanctuary … “AND”, ALSO
Two)
“includes the work of the High Priest _IN_ the Sanctuary”—
WHICH :
One)
Was the “OFFERING” of the animal’s / goat’s / lamb’s, LIFE’S-BLOOD, ‘presented’ or “OFFERED”, “before the LORD” “on the altar” INSIDE the sanctuary—
which to ‘present’ or “OFFER” of the life’s-blood of the animal
Two)
actually IS, “the work of the High Priest _IN_ the Sanctuary”
on both the great day of atonement and “the day when they killed the passover”.
Mark 14:12 Matthew 26:17 Luke 22:7 John 13:1.
Now because the earthly ministration of ‘sacrifice’ outside and ‘offering’ inside the sanctuary of the life's blood by the high priest, ONLY “included” that which was KILLED and could not live again because of its animal nature, the type or figure of the earthly sanctuary provided for an alive representation or prefiguration of Christ who was not only killed, but “also rose again”. In the case of the great day of atonement it was the live goat, and in the case of the passover, it was the first sheaf harvested and “waved before the LORD” on the third day of the passover and second day of unleavened bread eaten “on the day after the (passover-)sabbath” and sixteenth day of the First Month (Abib).
Whereas then with the animal sacrifice DEATH was in reality ‘offered’ or ‘presented’ before the Lord “on the very first day ye shall kill the passover” (“fourteenth day of the month”) in the most holy place of the sanctuary, LIFE, was figuratively “offered” or “presented” “before the LORD” on the THIRD day of the passover by type of “first sheaf”, “brought”, and “waved before the LORD”,
WITH CHRIST “The (Passover) Lamb of God” and “our Passover”, it was different. HE HIMSELF, BOTH, “made Sacrifice of Himself “on the first day when they killed the passover”; and because “it was impossible … that his soul / LIFE would be left in hell … God RAISED Him --- THIS JESUS WHOM YE CRUCIFIED --- UP again!”
So was the Passover’s First Sheaf Offering waved before the LORD in the MOST HOLY PLACE of the Sanctuary which is CHRIST IN RESURRECTION from the dead “on the third day” of the Passover of Yahweh … WITHIN THE SANCTUARY AND ITS MOST HOLY PLACE : “FOR HIS NAME IS : THE MOST HOLY PLACE OF THE SANCTUARY … RESTED-UP”. Isaiah 57:15.
Henceforth, “we find Christ is NOW in heaven as our High Priest. And 1John 2:1 says that in this role He serves as our "Advocate with the Father".”
And so, “Both the sin offering (atoning sacrifice) and the work of Christ as our High Priest - are described in Lev 16 in the "Day of Atonement" chapter 16”… ABSOLUTELY!
And now the part in Lev 16 of the Day of Atonement that goes beyond the slaying of the sin offering (the Atoning Sacrifice of 1John 2:1 NIV) is Christ our High Priest in the High Priest's ministry, where He took up His ministry AS INTERCESSOR IN THAT, and, “WHEN, GOD RAISED HIM UP FROM THE DEAD AGAIN AND, SET Him on the right hand of the Throne of the Majesty in the heavens”— Ephesians 1:19-23 Heb 8:1-5.
Confirmed by Bob Ryan himself …
“High Priest’s Ministry
15 ""Then he shall slaughter the goat of the sin offering which is for the people, and bring its blood inside the veil and do with its blood as he did with the blood of the bull, and sprinkle it on the mercy seat and in front of the mercy seat.
16 "" He shall make atonement for the holy place, because of the impurities of the sons of Israel and because of their transgressions in regard to all their sins; and thus he shall do for the tent of meeting which abides with them in the midst of their impurities.
17 ""When he goes in to make atonement in the holy place, no one shall be in the tent of meeting until he comes out, that he may make atonement for himself and for his household and for all the assembly of Israel.
18 ""Then he shall go out to the altar that is before the LORD and make atonement for it, and shall take some of the blood of the bull and of the blood of the goat and put it on the horns of the altar on all sides.
30 for it is on this day that atonement shall be made for you to cleanse you; you will be clean from all your sins before the LORD.
31 ""It is to be a Sabbath of solemn rest for you, that you may humble your souls; it is a permanent statute.
32 ""So the priest who is anointed and ordained to serve as priest in his father's place shall make atonement: he shall thus put on the linen garments, the holy garments,
33 and make atonement for the holy sanctuary, and he shall make atonement for the tent of meeting and for the altar. He shall also make atonement for the priests and for all the people of the assembly.
34 ""Now you shall have this as a permanent statute, to make atonement for the sons of Israel for all their sins once every year.'' And just as the LORD had commanded Moses, so he did.”
Leviticus 16 DOES include a full scope for atonement - one that includes BOTH the atoning sacrifice (the sin offering slain. the Lord's goat slain) AND also includes the work of the High Priest in the Sanctuary.
GE:
Leviticus 16 as far as it is possible for an earthly ministry to do, does indeed “include a full scope for atonement” … as Christ made fully and once for all on earth.
That POSSIBILITY for an earthly ministry and sanctuary, only reaches as far as and as “includes, the atoning SACRIFICE”— which,
One)
Is the sin offering ANIMAL “SLAIN”, which is the Lord's goat “SLAIN”, which is “the work of the High Priest” just outside the inside of the sanctuary … “AND”, ALSO
Two)
“includes the work of the High Priest _IN_ the Sanctuary”—
WHICH :
One)
Was the “OFFERING” of the animal’s / goat’s / lamb’s, LIFE’S-BLOOD, ‘presented’ or “OFFERED”, “before the LORD” “on the altar” INSIDE the sanctuary—
which to ‘present’ or “OFFER” of the life’s-blood of the animal
Two)
actually IS, “the work of the High Priest _IN_ the Sanctuary”
on both the great day of atonement and “the day when they killed the passover”.
Mark 14:12 Matthew 26:17 Luke 22:7 John 13:1.
Now because the earthly ministration of ‘sacrifice’ outside and ‘offering’ inside the sanctuary of the life's blood by the high priest, ONLY “included” that which was KILLED and could not live again because of its animal nature, the type or figure of the earthly sanctuary provided for an alive representation or prefiguration of Christ who was not only killed, but “also rose again”. In the case of the great day of atonement it was the live goat, and in the case of the passover, it was the first sheaf harvested and “waved before the LORD” on the third day of the passover and second day of unleavened bread eaten “on the day after the (passover-)sabbath” and sixteenth day of the First Month (Abib).
Whereas then with the animal sacrifice DEATH was in reality ‘offered’ or ‘presented’ before the Lord “on the very first day ye shall kill the passover” (“fourteenth day of the month”) in the most holy place of the sanctuary, LIFE, was figuratively “offered” or “presented” “before the LORD” on the THIRD day of the passover by type of “first sheaf”, “brought”, and “waved before the LORD”,
WITH CHRIST “The (Passover) Lamb of God” and “our Passover”, it was different. HE HIMSELF, BOTH, “made Sacrifice of Himself “on the first day when they killed the passover”; and because “it was impossible … that his soul / LIFE would be left in hell … God RAISED Him --- THIS JESUS WHOM YE CRUCIFIED --- UP again!”
So was the Passover’s First Sheaf Offering waved before the LORD in the MOST HOLY PLACE of the Sanctuary which is CHRIST IN RESURRECTION from the dead “on the third day” of the Passover of Yahweh … WITHIN THE SANCTUARY AND ITS MOST HOLY PLACE : “FOR HIS NAME IS : THE MOST HOLY PLACE OF THE SANCTUARY … RESTED-UP”. Isaiah 57:15.
Henceforth, “we find Christ is NOW in heaven as our High Priest. And 1John 2:1 says that in this role He serves as our "Advocate with the Father".”
And so, “Both the sin offering (atoning sacrifice) and the work of Christ as our High Priest - are described in Lev 16 in the "Day of Atonement" chapter 16”… ABSOLUTELY!
And now the part in Lev 16 of the Day of Atonement that goes beyond the slaying of the sin offering (the Atoning Sacrifice of 1John 2:1 NIV) is Christ our High Priest in the High Priest's ministry, where He took up His ministry AS INTERCESSOR IN THAT, and, “WHEN, GOD RAISED HIM UP FROM THE DEAD AGAIN AND, SET Him on the right hand of the Throne of the Majesty in the heavens”— Ephesians 1:19-23 Heb 8:1-5.
Confirmed by Bob Ryan himself …
“High Priest’s Ministry
15 ""Then he shall slaughter the goat of the sin offering which is for the people, and bring its blood inside the veil and do with its blood as he did with the blood of the bull, and sprinkle it on the mercy seat and in front of the mercy seat.
16 "" He shall make atonement for the holy place, because of the impurities of the sons of Israel and because of their transgressions in regard to all their sins; and thus he shall do for the tent of meeting which abides with them in the midst of their impurities.
17 ""When he goes in to make atonement in the holy place, no one shall be in the tent of meeting until he comes out, that he may make atonement for himself and for his household and for all the assembly of Israel.
18 ""Then he shall go out to the altar that is before the LORD and make atonement for it, and shall take some of the blood of the bull and of the blood of the goat and put it on the horns of the altar on all sides.
30 for it is on this day that atonement shall be made for you to cleanse you; you will be clean from all your sins before the LORD.
31 ""It is to be a Sabbath of solemn rest for you, that you may humble your souls; it is a permanent statute.
32 ""So the priest who is anointed and ordained to serve as priest in his father's place shall make atonement: he shall thus put on the linen garments, the holy garments,
33 and make atonement for the holy sanctuary, and he shall make atonement for the tent of meeting and for the altar. He shall also make atonement for the priests and for all the people of the assembly.
34 ""Now you shall have this as a permanent statute, to make atonement for the sons of Israel for all their sins once every year.'' And just as the LORD had commanded Moses, so he did.”
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