Turn the Other CheeK ???

[Caretaker]

Should a Christian use violence?

Should a Christian use lethal force?

Should a Christian serve in the military and be willing to use lethal force to kill an enemy?

If given the opportunity to execute Adolph Hitler, Usama bin Laden, Saddam Hussein, should a Christian "take the shot"??

Is it wrong for the policeman to use necessary force,(which can be lethel force), to stop the threat of violence in the hands of the criminal?

I myself will use necessary force to stop the threat of violence against the vulnerable. The primary mistake that the United States made in WW II was entering the war two years too late. The US should not have given heed to the isolationists and peace advocates, when Hitler invaded Poland. We should have entered full bore when this rabid dog first started attacking his neighbors. Perhaps there would not have been 6 million Jews and countless mentally impaired, gypsies, homosexuals, physically infirm, as well as those of other countries, brutally murdered
in the concentration camps.

We are again confronted with rabid dogs, abherents to fundamental Islam and willing to kill and enslave all infidels, men, women, and children. In Sudan the government is Islamic and the militia has full support of the government, and finances itself with raids and slave trade against the Christian and animist villages in the south.

No man, woman or child is safe against the rabid dogs of Islamic terrorism. I would not stand by and let a mad dog enter a school yard with an AK-47, and we must not allow rabid dogs access to the vulnerable.

Romans 13
1
Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.
2
Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.
3
For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:
4
For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.
5
Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake.
6
For for this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God's ministers, attending continually upon this very thing.
7
Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour.

A servant of Christ,
Drew

Psalm 51:10
Create in me a clean heart, O'God, and renew a right spirit within me.

 

[mountainrun]

I agree pretty much with your post.
Turning the other cheek applies to offenses against us personally, although the Bible says that the armed man should defend his house.
This scripture should never be taken to mean that we are not to defend others or our country from evil.
As you noted, God has instituted governments to keep order.
As with everything else, some fail and become a menace and must be dealt with.

MR

 

[Johnv]

Should a Christian use violence......lethal force...kill an enemy...use necessary force [in law enforcement] to stop the threat of violence in the hands of the criminal?

There are several biblical examples in which these are acceptible. There are also several biblical examples in which these are unacceptible.

 

[Circuitrider]

Historically, Baptists have supported the right and responsibility of believers to defend themselves, including serving in the the military. Many Baptists fought in the Revolutionary War and all wars since then.

Anabaptists have had a tendency to hold a position of pacifism and have taken a stand against war and refused to serve in a combat situation.

Some noted Christians were well decorated soldiers, such as General Thomas (Stonewall) Jackson and Sgt. Alvin York.

 

[Caretaker]

Dear Ones in Christ;

Thank you so for the responses and the words of wisdom and insight. For me if attacked for my faith I am to not resist and to turn the other cheek. To stop the criminal one is to use the necessary force to neutralize the threat of violence.

It is kind of like interpreting one's course of daily choices by using His Holy guidebook. For me I will stand and defend the vulnerable from the predator's attack.

It was neat that Circuitrider brought up Alvin York. He was the single most decorated soldier in WW1 and was drafted and a declared concientious objector. I seek insight and wisdom in those who have tread yon path before me.

Dietrich Bonhoffer was a distinguished theologian prior to WWII, and when Hitler came to power he was one who chose to return to Germany from the States, and to speak out from the pulpit, against Hitler. He was also active in the resistance and helped get Jews out of Germany. He was arrested and hung for his faith and social conscience. His writings from prison are an inspiration, in faith and perseverence.

Like myself Alvin York was a wild crazy drunk and party animal, until coming to Christ. He came to Christ in the backwoods of Kentucky, and became an elder in his church. He was drafted in WWI and he tried to get a deferment as a Concientious Objector, but because his church had no doctrine against serving he was forced to go. He was the single most decorated soldier from WWI including the Congressional medal of honor.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

http://www.alvincyork.org/Biography.htm

"So you see my religion and my experience...told me not to go to war, and the memory of my ancestors...told me to get my gun and go fight. I didn't know what to do. I'm telling you there was a war going on inside me, and I didn't know which side to lean to. I was a heap bothered. It is a most awful thing when the wishes of your God and your country...get mixed up and go against each other. One moment I would make up my mind to follow God, and the next I would hesitate and almost make up my mind to follow Uncle Sam. Then I wouldn't know which to follow or what to do. I wanted to follow both but I couldn't. They were opposite. I wanted to be a good Christian and a good American too."

Now let Alvin tell the rest of the story in his own words. In his diary under the date of October 8, 1918:

"....there was 17 of us boys went around on the left flank to see if we couldn't put those guns out of action. So when we went around and fell in behind those guns, we first saw two Germans with Red Cross bands on their arms. So we asked them to stop and they did not. So one of the boys shot at them and they run back to our right. So we all run after them, and when we jumped across a little stream of water that was there, they was about 15 or 20 Germans jumped up and threw up their hands and said, 'Kame rad!' So the one in charge of us boys told us not to shoot; they was going to give up anyway. (These prisoners included a major and two other officers).

By this time some of the Germans from on the hill was shooting at us. Well, I was giving them the best I had, and by this time the Germans had got their machine guns turned around and fired on us. So they killed six and wounded three of us. So that just left 8, and then we got into it right by this time. So we had a hard battle for a little while, and I got hold of the German major and he told me if I wouldn't kill any more of them he would make them quit firing. So I told him all right if he would do it now. So he blew a little whistle and they quit shooting and come down and gave up. I had killed over 20 before the German major said he would make them give up. I covered him with my automatic and told him if he didn't make them stop firing I would take his head off next. And he knew I meant it. After he blew his whistle, all but one of them came off the hill with their hands up, and just before that one got to me he threw a little hand grenade which burst in the air in front of me. I had to touch him off. The rest surrendered without any more trouble. There were nearly a 100 of them. We had about 80 or 90 Germans there disarmed, and had another line of Germans to go through to get out. So I called for my men, and one of them answered from behind a big oak tree, and the others were on my right in the brush. (All the non-commissioned officers had been killed or severely wounded except York. This left him in command). So I said, 'Let's get these Germans out of here.' One of my men said, 'It is impossible.' So I said, 'No; let's get them out of here.' So when my man said that, the German major said, 'How many have you got?' And I said that, 'I have got plenty,' and pointed my pistol at him all the time. In this battle I was using a rifle and a .45 Colt automatic. So I lined the Germans up in a line of two's, and I got between the ones in front, and I had the German major before me. So I marched them straight into those other machine guns and I got them. So when I got back to my major's P.C. (post of command) I had 132 prisoners."

Throughout the investigation that followed York's fight in the Argonne, he consistently played down the importance of the action. In his diary he sums up the fight in which he killed more than twenty men and captured 132 with this line : "So we had a hard battle for a little while." No boasting in that simple statement. When he marched his prisoners back to the battalion post of command, Brigadier General Lindsey said to him, "Well, York, I hear you have captured the whole German army," to which York replied modestly, "No, I only have 132." He seemed almost apologetic for bringing in a mere handful of prisoners.

The next morning twenty-eight dead Germans were found at the scene of the fight. York says that is the number of shots he fired. They also found thirty-five German machine guns and a lot of other small arms and ammunition.

The officers of the 82nd Division made this official report to General Headquarters: "The part which Corporal York individually played in the attack (the capture of the Decauville Railroad) is difficult to estimate. Practically unassisted he captured 132 Germans (three of whom were officers), took about thirty-five machine guns, and killed no less than twenty-five of the enemy, later found by others on the scene of York's extraordinary exploit. The story has been carefully checked in every possible detail from headquarters of this division and is entirely substantiated. Although York's statement tends to underestimate the desperate odds which he overcame, it has been decided to forward to higher authorities the account given in his own name. The success of this assault had a far-reaching effect in relieving the enemy pressure against American forces in the heart of the Argonne Forest."

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Alvin York took 28 lives in the Argonne Forrest, but through his sharpshooting and bravery he saved 132 German lives and the lives of the 7 other men left alive with York in his platoon.

May God so bless His precious children, and lead us into His truth and perfect will for our lives.

A servant of Christ,
Drew

Psalm 51:10 Create in me a clean heart, O'God, and renew a right spirit within me.

 

[Helen]

In line with the other responses, I think the differentiation must be understood that defending one's self against a personal enemy or attack is nowhere supported biblically (which is why I have a real problem with the martial arts in a Christian or biblical context!). We are, personally, to depend entirely on God's provision.

However, we ARE to defend others, including the country we were born into or became citizens of. This is just as biblical! At all points there seems to be a sharp differentiation between self and others in the Bible.

 

[Caretaker]

My Dear Sister in Christ Helen;

I edit because I seem to have posted twice. I do want to say that I have read so many of your posts, and they are such an inspiration to me. Your Biblical wisdom and insight is such an example, and encouragement to others. God bless you my Sister in Christ, as you have so blessed the hearts and lives of others.

May God so bless His precious children.

A servant of Christ,
Drew

Psalm 51:10
Create in me a clean heart, O'God, and renew a right spirit within me

[ December 29, 2002, 12:46 PM: Message edited by: Caretaker ]

 

[Caretaker]

My Dear Sister in Christ Helen;

I differentiate between being attacked for ones faith or unjustly, and the predatory attack of the criminal. In the first we are not to defend ourselves, but to turn the other cheek.

In the attack of a criminal we may be the only stop between the criminal and the attack on another victim.

As a volunteer fire fighter,(we are a rural community with an all volunteer department), I have many times, in the last 14 years, put on my bunker gear and rolled the trucks. When the alarm goes off I respond and when I am confronted with a wall of flame and I have been the only one standing between it and persons and property, my greatest fear is that I will fail and it will get by me.

I am also a reserve officer with the county SO, and we have an area with a population but the uniformed officers are 20-40 minutes away. I am the first and only response in our area for what can seem an eternal "window". I have dealt with anything from four heart attacks, to multiple rollovers, drunken teenagers, to escaped felons. If I fail to shut down an underage party, then I may be picking them up out of the ditch or they may ram into another car,(we average one multiple rollover per year, with subsequent major trama). I must position myself between the one violating the law, and those who they will harm, including themselves. As with the 10 foot wall of flame rolling down on my position at 25 miles an hour, and I am the only one between it and the mobile home, if I fail to perform lives and property hang in the balance.

As for myself I truly embrace the words of my elder Brother Paul, for to me to live is Christ and to die is gain for to be absent from the flesh is to be present with my glorious Lord and Savior. It makes no difference what happens to me, but I must do all within my hundreds of hours of traing and to the fullest of my abilities to protect and serve those who cannot protect themselves.

This is the moral conflict which I face, for I do not desire to harm another, to love others with the love of my Lord who indwells my heart, but I cannot stand by and fail to stop a direct threat to others.

May God so bless His precious children.

A servant of Christ,
Drew

Psalm 51:10
Create in me a clean heart, O'God, and renew a right spirit within me.

 

[post-it]

Originally posted by Helen:
In line with the other responses, I think the differentiation must be understood that defending one's self against a personal enemy or attack is nowhere supported biblically (which is why I have a real problem with the martial arts in a Christian or biblical context!). We are, personally, to depend entirely on God's provision.

However, we ARE to defend others, including the country we were born into or became citizens of. This is just as biblical! At all points there seems to be a sharp differentiation between self and others in the Bible.

If I am to protect my family or others, I must also protect myself, in order to be alive to protect them, therefore defending the self is very much mandated by the Bible.

Martial Arts and even Gun ownership by Christians are things sanctioned by scripture to protect our home.

 

[Justified]

Post,

I have to say that most of the time, I disagree with your post, but this time, I have to say again, "AMEN!"

Happy New Year to all!