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Featured Two baptisms: Which is which?

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by awaken, Apr 1, 2013.

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  1. awaken

    awaken Active Member

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    Acts 18

    24 And a certain Jew named Apollos, born at Alexandria, an eloquent man, and mighty * in the scriptures, came to Ephesus.
    25 This man was instructed in the way of the Lord; and being fervent in the spirit, he spake and taught diligently the things of the Lord, knowing only the baptism of John.
    26 And he began to speak boldly in the synagogue: whom when Aquila and Priscilla had heard, they took him unto them, and expounded unto him the way of God more perfectly. 27 And when he was disposed to pass into Achaia, the brethren wrote, exhorting the disciples to receive him: who, when he was come, helped them much which had believed through grace:
    28 For he mightily convinced the Jews, and that publickly, shewing by the scriptures that Jesus was Christ.

    Apollos only knew of the baptism of John. Does that not imply that there wa something more, like maybe a greater baptism? What did Priscilla and Aquilla share with Apollos when they "explained to him the way of God more adequately"? Could it have been the knowledge of that greater baptism?
     
    #1 awaken, Apr 1, 2013
  2. Thomas Helwys

    Thomas Helwys New Member

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    I have already explained that to you. I'll not get drawn into another discussion about the false doctrine of a HS baptism apart form conversion.

    Quite obviously, however, the "baptism of John" was not Christian baptism.
     
    #2 Thomas Helwys, Apr 1, 2013
  3. awaken

    awaken Active Member

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    You mean water baptism?
     
    #3 awaken, Apr 1, 2013
  4. awaken

    awaken Active Member

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    Acts 19
    1 And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was * at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,
    2 He said unto them *, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed ? And they said unto him *, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
    3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized ? And they said, Unto John's baptism.
    4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
    5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
    6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

    One version of the Bible says that they were :baptized INTO the name of the Lord Jesus." Interesting?? Does it say they were baptized into water? NO. THe element into which they were "immersed" was the name of Jesus Christ. Most people believe that this is speaking of water because of what they were taught. But as I study this our more..the Word of God seems to say different.

    Because of what Jesus Christ accomplished, there is a greater and more powerful baptism available than the old water baptism John the Baptist had preached. In fact, it was John himself who said that water baptism was only a symbolic foreshadowing of the greater holy spirit baptism that Jesus would implement.
     
    #4 awaken, Apr 1, 2013
  5. plain_n_simple

    plain_n_simple Active Member

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    ACTS 19
    1 And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,

    2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.

    3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.

    4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.

    5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

    6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

    The writer describes the people Paul found as "disciples". These are believers who have been baptized and believe on Jesus Christ as described in verse 6.

    This is definitely a Christian baptism, it is the water baptism. It is the first of two baptisms available.

    Why would Paul baptize disciples a second time in water? He would not.
    He baptized them in the Holy Spirit.
     
    #5 plain_n_simple, Apr 2, 2013
  6. Thomas Helwys

    Thomas Helwys New Member

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    We have gone over this before (sigh).

    Yes, they were disciples, disciples of John, having received John's baptism. When Paul explained to them that they should believe, as John said, in the one who came after John, the Lord Jesus, they then received Christian baptism. The passage clearly says that they were baptized with water twice, once with John's baptism, and then in the name of Jesus which was their Christian baptism, this after Paul told them they should believe in the one who came after John -- Jesus Christ. Verse 5 clearly states this.

    And Paul did not and could not baptize them or anyone in the Holy Spirit, as that is the prerogative of God alone.

    It is frustrating to try to have a discussion when someone cannot discern what the clear words of scripture are saying.

    Yes, there is water baptism and spirit baptism, and spirit baptism occurs when one first comes to faith. There is no HS baptism separate from conversion.
     
    #6 Thomas Helwys, Apr 2, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 2, 2013
  7. awaken

    awaken Active Member

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    Let's set aside the separate from conversion for awhile and settle some other issues. Were the apostles water baptized after John's baptism? After the day of pentecost? After their conversion as many believe happened that day?
     
    #7 awaken, Apr 2, 2013
  8. awaken

    awaken Active Member

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    Maybe before we go on debating this subject we need to clear up what was John's baptism?

    Jesus lived and died to make available to us today, what? Water baptism or Spirit baptism? For christians is it about the water baptism or Holy Spirit baptism?

    In the Mosaic Law for Israel the old, ceremonial,outer washing in water pointed toward, and has not been superseded by, the new actual, inner cleansing in the holy Spirit. The old water baptism could not, and still cannot, change the heart of a man, but the spirit of the Holy God can! Baptism in the OT was one of the "shadows" cast by the approaching light of Christ. Bringing into reality that greater cleansing, which water baptism only symbolized.

    By the time John the Baptist, there were ritual washing pools all over Israel. They promised to keep the law of commandments and were baptized, completly submerged!

    John's water batism was called "a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins". His baptism symbolized, and was accompanied by, a repentance, a commitment to turn away from sin, on the part of the one baptized. There is a significant difference between this and the baptism in the Holy Spirit.
     
    #8 awaken, Apr 2, 2013
  9. awaken

    awaken Active Member

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    "John answered them all, " I baptize you with water. But (in contrast) one more powerful than I will come, the thongs of whose sandals I am not worthy to untie. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire" (Luke 3:16)

    Why was Jesus baptized in water? First because he was a Jew living under the Mosaic Law, and water baptism was still pertinent to him. Jesus said in Matthew, "let it be so now: it is proper for us to do this to fulfill all righteousness."

    It is also significant that at the same moment when John baptized Jesus with water, God baptized His Son with the Holy Spirit in the form of a dove that descended upon him. Both baptism interfaced, showing the transition between the old and the new that would take effect on the Day of Pentecost when the Church began in power!
     
    #9 awaken, Apr 2, 2013
  10. awaken

    awaken Active Member

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    Hebrews 9:10 mentions "various ceremonial washings" in the Law, and the Greek word for "washings" there is "baptisms." God could have easily usedone of several other Greek words, such as pluno, which is used of washing inanimate things; nipto, used of washing a part of the body; or louo, which means "to bathe" or "to wash the entire body." Instead, He chose "baptisms" to refer to the OT washings.

    There were many different things that a person could do in the OT that would make him unclean, and often the Law said that he then had to wash in water in order to re-enter teh congregation.

    In John's baptism--the water was symbolic of the rinsing off of sin and of showing one's desire to enter the Kingdom of God.
     
    #10 awaken, Apr 2, 2013
  11. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    they did NOT teach him the so called "baptism in the Holy Ghost!"

    He knew of what John had preached, but was ignorant of the full message of chrsit and the cross, the "gospel", so instructed him in the 'other side of the story!"
     
    #11 Yeshua1, Apr 2, 2013
  12. awaken

    awaken Active Member

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    Really? How did you get that from those scriptues?
     
    #12 awaken, Apr 2, 2013
  13. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    the baptism of John would have meant the preaching of John expecting the coming of the messiah, they taught him the remainder of the story, how he had come and died and rose again!
     
    #13 Yeshua1, Apr 2, 2013
  14. evangelist-7

    evangelist-7 New Member

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    Yes, we sure have (sigh!) ... and here it is again,
    but only for the purpose of edifying newcomers who may be passing our way.

    The 4 Christian baptisms ... a very short summary

    Baptism into the church (salvation) --- the Holy Spirit is the baptizer
    This does NOT refer to a phony salvation, which has always been quite prevalent,
    i.e. merely an intellectual belief or conversion of one’s thinking.
    But this refers to being “born again (from above)” with the Holy Spirit entering the person.
    “For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body (the church)
    … and have all been made to drink into one Spirit.” (1 Corinthians 12:13)
    The Holy Spirit takes up residence INSIDE the believer … John 14:16-23; Romans 8:11;
    1 Corinthians 3:16; Galatians 4:6; 2 Timothy 1:14; 1 John 3:24; 1 John 4:12-16.

    Baptism in water (symbolic demonstration of faith) --- man is the baptizer
    Full-immersion baptism in water is symbolic, being the outward expression of inward faith.
    Any other type of water baptism is unscriptural and just dreamed up by man.
    Jesus died to self, went down under the earth, was resurrected with a new incorruptible body.
    We are to die to self, go down under the water, come up a new man ready to live a new life.
    Paul said, “Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel” (1 Corinthians 1:17).
    Scripture says we are justified by faith alone, not by works (Romans 4:1-8, Ephesians 2:8-9).

    Baptism with the Holy Spirit (mostly power for ministry) --- Jesus is the baptizer
    John the Baptist proclaimed that Jesus is the One who baptizes with the Holy Spirit
    Matthew 3:11, Mark 1:8, Luke 3:16, John 1:33.
    The baptism with the Holy Spirit comes after being born again (or at the same time).
    7 verses say that for this baptism the Holy Spirit comes UPON the believer, for example:
    “… the Holy Spirit fell upon them, as upon us at the beginning. Then I remembered
    the word of the Lord, how He said, ‘John indeed baptized with water, but you shall
    be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’ ” (Acts 11:15-16)
    14 Scripture passages directly LINK the following gifts and events with this baptism:
    the promise, the gift, upon, laying on of hands, filled with the Holy Spirit,
    received the Holy Spirit, speaking in tongues, power, boldness, miracles.

    Baptism with fire (extreme suffering for the gospel’s sake) --- Jesus is the baptizer
    John the Baptist proclaimed that Jesus is the One who baptizes with fire.
    “He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.” (Matthew 3:11, Luke 3:16)
    Jesus asks His 12 disciples if they are able and willing to be martyrs after Him …
    “Are you able to drink the cup that I am about to drink, and be baptized with the
    baptism that I am baptized with? … You will indeed drink My cup, and be baptized
    with the baptism that I am baptized with …” (Matthew 20:22-23, Mark 10:38-39)

    All of the baptisms are glorious blessings, even the baptism with fire:
    “Blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness sake” (Matthew 5:10).
    .
     
    #14 evangelist-7, Apr 2, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 2, 2013
  15. awaken

    awaken Active Member

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    THis one I have never seen as you posted???
    So are you saying that Jesus was baptized in fire?
     
    #15 awaken, Apr 2, 2013
  16. Thomas Helwys

    Thomas Helwys New Member

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    And for the sake of newcomers who may be passing by, it is necessary to point out the complete error of the baptism of the HS as separate from conversion, and also tongues as initial evidence of that. Only way to maintain that is to ignore scriptural context.
     
    #16 Thomas Helwys, Apr 2, 2013
  17. Thomas Helwys

    Thomas Helwys New Member

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    I don't even know why you are asking this.
     
    #17 Thomas Helwys, Apr 2, 2013
  18. awaken

    awaken Active Member

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    Do you know if they were? THis is a honest question!
     
    #18 awaken, Apr 2, 2013
  19. evangelist-7

    evangelist-7 New Member

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    Awaken, Praise the Lord, you are a very normal and blessed 1:26+ Christian, and I ain't talkin' age.
    The Lord loves you very much ... and IMO, you are one of the elect of God.

    Now, back to ye olde grindstone ...

    Re: #4 ... Jesus and His disciples were extremely persecuted for His name's sake!
    Me too, but not extremely (yet) ... I've offered to be a martyr.
    How about you ... much goin' on so far (except here, which isn't much)?

    Notice that these 4 little items ... speaking in tongues, power, boldness, miracles
    obviously have NOTHING to do with someone being born again.
    These 4 ONLY happen when the Holy Spirit comes UPON someone,
    which is Jesus' ANOINTING for special service of some kind!

    Discovered yet what your special service is?
    Whichever (new word) ones of the 9 spiritual gifts you have should be your clue, right?
    .
     
    #19 evangelist-7, Apr 2, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 2, 2013
  20. awaken

    awaken Active Member

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    I was sincere when I asked that question. I can see what you are saying..I just have never seen it before as you posted.

    After I studied this out I came to the conclusion that the baptism of fire was for the unbelievers. Could be wrong?? I will have to look into it some more in light of what you posted.
     
    #20 awaken, Apr 2, 2013
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