Two Gospels

[steaver]

Many debates go on here between faith alone and faith plus law. There can only be one true gospel, one true salvation.

Paul said that if anyone preaches any other gospel than the one he delivered, they are accursed.

So which gospel did Paul speak of?

Faith alone or faith plus law?

Since there is a divide here on this issue does it not follow that one or the other, faith alone preachers or faith plus law preachers, are damned to hell?

I am not talking about those who may have faith in Jesus Christ but believe they must obey the law also to be saved or those who believe in faith alone. I am speaking about those who "preach" the gospel here on this board or to others.

Paul gave strong warning. Either those preaching faith alone or those preaching faith plus law are saved depending on what gospel Paul delivered. It cannot be that both will be saved.

Paul said,

Gal 1:8But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.


I preach faith alone, others preach faith plus law. I am convinced that I am not accursed, others are convinced that they are not accursed. Yet in reality, if the scripture cannot be broken, one of us is going to hell.

Yes? No?

Your thoughts.....

 

[Fred's Wife]

Salvation by grace alone through faith alone is the Gospel preached by the Apostles and revealed to us in the Word of God.

 

[dwmoeller1]

Faith alone or faith plus law?

If by "law" you mean "works", then the answer is both. Two sides of the same coin.

But if by law you refer to the OT law, then I don't see how there can be much debate. Certainly only by faith.

 

[steaver]

If by "law" you mean "works", then the answer is both. Two sides of the same coin.

But if by law you refer to the OT law, then I don't see how there can be much debate. Certainly only by faith.

Either Paul preached faith alone saves or he preached faith plus ______ you fill in the blank.

Now, if you believe Paul preached faith plus law or works or prayer or church three times per week or whatever, then you would have to say that those of us preaching faith alone are accursed and are condemned to hell for preaching another gospel.

Correct?

 

[steaver]

Salvation by grace alone through faith alone is the Gospel preached by the Apostles and revealed to us in the Word of God.

Some professing Christians agree with you and others do not. Do those who add anything to grace and faith preach another gospel?

If so, then according to Paul they can not be Christians, correct?

 

[Fred's Wife]

Some professing Christians agree with you and others do not. Do those who add anything to grace and faith preach another gospel?

Yes, they do (Galatians 1:8-9)

If so, then according to Paul they can not be Christians, correct?

According to Paul (Galatians 1:8-9) they are "accursed/anathema" and false teachers..."wolves in sheep's clothing". Paul warned the elders at Ephesus (Acts 20:28-31) about these "wolves":

Acts 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

Acts 20:29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.

Acts 20:30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.

Acts 20:31 Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears.

 

[steaver]

Yes, they do (Galatians 1:8-9)

According to Paul (Galatians 1:8-9) they are "accursed/anathema" and false teachers..."wolves in sheep's clothing". Paul warned the elders at Ephesus (Acts 20:28-31) about these "wolves":

Acts 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

Acts 20:29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.

Acts 20:30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.

Acts 20:31 Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears.

Why do you think men want to preach obedience to the law = salvation when their very own hearts would convict them that they cannot keep the law in all points? Thus, condemned by the very law they preach.

Paul said that he does not preach the law nor was a minister of the law, yet even so, men want to preach the law going against the example of the apostles.

The law is the ministration of condemnation, the ministration of death. Keeping any part of it has no salvatic value, it can only condemn, for it works as a whole. Break one small piece and you have broken it as a whole. It's only purpose was to increase the knowledge of sin and the need for grace.

The apostle's were ministers of the spirit. Spirit giving birth and life to spirit through faith in Jesus Christ apart from any works of the law. The law, the written letter, is abolished in Christ.

So why do men still want to preach the law = salvation?

Paul said that these people remain in their blinded condition. If they would turn to Jesus Christ and trust Him alone for their salvation then the darkness would be lifted and they would no longer trust in the law for any part of their redemption.

2Cr 3:15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.
2Cr 3:16 Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.

I always found it so strange that these people can read the scriptures over and over yet because of their need to control others through a list of regulations they cannot see the simple truth. They are simply modern day Pharisees.

Paul made it plain to understand the gospel of Jesus Christ. WHy do so many seek to complicate it or add their own merits to it in some way?

2Cr 3:12 Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech:

 

[Jon-Marc]

Salvation by grace alone through faith alone is the Gospel preached by the Apostles and revealed to us in the Word of God.

Why is it so difficult for some to understand Eph. 2:8,9? "For by grace are ye saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God. Not of works, lest any man should boast."

It is by the grace of God THROUGH faith. So you need BOTH God's grace and to trust in Him by faith. Salvation is a GIFT from God and NOT by our works. You don't buy a gift; it is freely given. Why is that so difficult to understand?

Of course. some people want to be able to stand and boast and say, "Look at me. I made it to heaven on my goodness." The truth is that salvation was bought by the Lamb of God and freely given by the grace of God to all who will repent and believe by faith.

 

[Steven2006]

First let me be completely clear I believe we are saved by grace through faith alone, not by works.

However, I find that so often in wanting to move as far away from the works position we often ignore the importance of self examination. I have witnessed occasions where I am told so and so was saved, but sadly exhibit no outward change as I can see. Far be it for me to judge the sincerity of anyone's profession of faith, but this is where I think it is important to self examine oneself.

If we are a new creation in Christ and old things have passed away, our lives will be much different. I don't believe in sinless perfection, that is not biblical, but scripture tells us that through Christ we can overcome sin. So IMHO we shouldn't be living a habitual sinful life not pleasing to God. We can live Godly lives.

Salvation is very simple, by grace through faith. But I fear in our zeal in guarding that fact too often we run the danger of easy believism where as long as anyone says a prayer or agrees with someone asking them to trust in Jesus there is little emphasis put on testing that faith. Maybe we are afraid it would sound like we could lose our salvation so we gloss over the that area of scripture. So and so said a prayer one Sunday night so no matter what he does with his life he must be saved, just the prodigal son, one day to return.

We are not saved by anything we do in our lives, but with Christ living though us we can look at that life of faith as "proof" of and to have confidence in our salvation.


2Cr 13:5 Test yourselves to see if you are in the faith; examine yourselves! Or do you not recognize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you—unless indeed you [fn] fail the test?

2Cr 13:6 But I trust that you will realize that we ourselves [fn] do not fail the test.



Gal 6:4 But each one must examine his own work, and then he will have reason for boasting in regard to himself alone, and not in regard to another.

Gal 6:5 For each one will bear his own load.



2Ti 4:7 I have fought the good fight, I have finished the course, I have kept the faith;

1Ti 4:7 But [fn] have nothing to do with worldly fables fit only for old women. On the other hand, discipline yourself for the purpose of godliness;



1Ti 4:8 for bodily discipline is only of little profit, but godliness is profitable for all things, since it holds promise for the present life and also for the life to come.
1Ti 4:9 It is a trustworthy statement deserving full acceptance.



Col 1:20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, [I say], whether [they be] things in earth, or things in heaven.

Col 1:21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in [your] mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled

Col 1:22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:

Col 1:23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and [be] not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, [and] which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;


I hope I properly explained what I am trying to say. Sometimes with these long posts I am not always the best at doing so.

.

 

[steaver]

First let me be completely clear I believe we are saved by grace through faith alone, not by works.

However, I find that so often in wanting to move as far away from the works position we often ignore the importance of self examination. I have witnessed occasions where I am told so and so was saved, but sadly exhibit no outward change as I can see. Far be it for me to judge the sincerity of anyone's profession of faith, but this is where I think it is important to self examine oneself.

If we are a new creation in Christ and old things have passed away, our lives will be much different. I don't believe in sinless perfection, that is not biblical, but scripture tells us that through Christ we can overcome sin. So IMHO we shouldn't be living a habitual sinful life not pleasing to God. We can live Godly lives.

Salvation is very simple, by grace through faith. But I fear in our zeal in guarding that fact too often we run the danger of easy believism where as long as anyone says a prayer or agrees with someone asking them to trust in Jesus there is little emphasis put on testing that faith. Maybe we are afraid it would sound like we could lose our salvation so we gloss over the that area of scripture. So and so said a prayer one Sunday night so no matter what he does with his life he must be saved, just the prodigal son, one day to return.

We are not saved by anything we do in our lives, but with Christ living though us we can look at that life of faith as "proof" of and to have confidence in our salvation.


2Cr 13:5 Test yourselves to see if you are in the faith; examine yourselves! Or do you not recognize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you—unless indeed you [fn] fail the test?

2Cr 13:6 But I trust that you will realize that we ourselves [fn] do not fail the test.



Gal 6:4 But each one must examine his own work, and then he will have reason for boasting in regard to himself alone, and not in regard to another.

Gal 6:5 For each one will bear his own load.



2Ti 4:7 I have fought the good fight, I have finished the course, I have kept the faith;

1Ti 4:7 But [fn] have nothing to do with worldly fables fit only for old women. On the other hand, discipline yourself for the purpose of godliness;



1Ti 4:8 for bodily discipline is only of little profit, but godliness is profitable for all things, since it holds promise for the present life and also for the life to come.
1Ti 4:9 It is a trustworthy statement deserving full acceptance.



Col 1:20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, [I say], whether [they be] things in earth, or things in heaven.

Col 1:21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in [your] mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled

Col 1:22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:

Col 1:23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and [be] not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, [and] which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;


I hope I properly explained what I am trying to say. Sometimes with these long posts I am not always the best at doing so.

.

Your are right on sound biblical counsel - on this subject of self examination you posted about.

The doctrine of faith alone does not dismiss the fact that many have been led astray by another believer telling them to just say a prayer and you are good to go.

One must be born of God. If one is born of God there will be evidence of this within their own heart - God knows them that are His.

 

[Andre]

I preach faith alone, others preach faith plus law. I am convinced that I am not accursed, others are convinced that they are not accursed. Yet in reality, if the scripture cannot be broken, one of us is going to hell.

Yes? No?

Your thoughts.....

First of all, I am not sure that there are those who are preaching "faith plus law" in the sense of faith plus the Law of Moses. There are indeed those, like me, who believe that final salvation does indeed depend on deeds, how you have actually lived.

But second, you implicitly assume that the gospel is "news about how you can be saved". As I am prepared to argue in grisly detail, this is not how Paul uses the word "gospel". For Paul, the gospel is the message that Jesus is lord.

So even if people preach different things about "how you get saved", these do not constitute different gospels.

To preach a different gospel would entail denying that Jesus is lord. So I do not think anyone is "going to hell" over this issue of whether they preach "faith alone" or "faith plus works / law".

 

[steaver]

First of all, I am not sure that there are those who are preaching "faith plus law" in the sense of faith plus the Law of Moses. There are indeed those, like me, who believe that final salvation does indeed depend on deeds, how you have actually lived.

But second, you implicitly assume that the gospel is "news about how you can be saved". As I am prepared to argue in grisly detail, this is not how Paul uses the word "gospel". For Paul, the gospel is the message that Jesus is lord.

So even if people preach different things about "how you get saved", these do not constitute different gospels.

To preach a different gospel would entail denying that Jesus is lord. So I do not think anyone is "going to hell" over this issue of whether they preach "faith alone" or "faith plus works / law".

If this be the case, that the gospel Paul is speaking of is that Jesus is Lord, then the only other gospel Paul could be refering to would be Jesus is not Lord.

Paul begins;

Gal 1:6¶I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:

You are suggesting that Paul is reminding the Galatian Christians that Jesus is Lord.

Gal 1:7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
You are suggesting that what is being perverted here is the fact that Jesus is Lord.

I don't see any merit in this pov.

Paul goes on to tell the Galatian Christians just what the perversion is, and he says nothing about them not believing Jesus is Lord;

Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

I believe the view of the gospel here is much more than Jesus is Lord. Paul is speaking to the preaching of justification being perverted.

Paul furthers his preaching on the subject of the gospel;

Gal 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness [come] by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.


Gal 3:1¶O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?

You are suggesting that these Galatians have abandoned the fact that Jesus is Lord (gospel according to your pov). It is obvious that Paul is speaking about something more than that.

I need not post the whole letter, the further we read into it the more we see that this "other gospel" Paul is speaking of is much more than "Jesus is not Lord". In fact, Paul never suggest at all that these Galatians had abandoned the fact that Jesus is Lord.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Many debates go on here between faith alone and faith plus law. There can only be one true gospel, one true salvation.

Paul said that if anyone preaches any other gospel than the one he delivered, they are accursed.

So which gospel did Paul speak of?

Faith alone or faith plus law?

Since there is a divide here on this issue does it not follow that one or the other, faith alone preachers or faith plus law preachers, are damned to hell?

I am not talking about those who may have faith in Jesus Christ but believe they must obey the law also to be saved or those who believe in faith alone. I am speaking about those who "preach" the gospel here on this board or to others.

Paul gave strong warning. Either those preaching faith alone or those preaching faith plus law are saved depending on what gospel Paul delivered. It cannot be that both will be saved.

Paul said,

Gal 1:8But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.


I preach faith alone, others preach faith plus law. I am convinced that I am not accursed, others are convinced that they are not accursed. Yet in reality, if the scripture cannot be broken, one of us is going to hell.

Yes? No?

Your thoughts.....

GE:

The Gospel proclaimed by Paul was the LAW fulfilled in, AND, by, Jesus Christ, 1Corinthians 15:1-4.

Faith clearly was no requirement for or to or from that Gospel; it was no law unto salvation. Faith was the inevitable and unavoidable fruit of that Gospel in the hearts of few set free to become bondmen under Jesus Christ. Accordingly faith is NOT the main feature of the Gospel; the Law, the Scriptures, the Passover, Prophecy and Eschatology are. “Christentum das nicht ganz und gar und Restlos Eschatologie ist hat mit Christus Jesus ganz und gar und Restlos NICHTS zu tun!” Karl Barth. Faith is no straw wand that changes the pumpkin into the coach to salvation.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Gal 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness [come] by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

If righteousness does come by the law, then Christ is NOT dead in vain, He having become that Law by which indeed righteousness had come.

 

[Steven2006]

GE:


Accordingly faith is NOT the main feature of the Gospel; the Law, the Scriptures, the Passover, Prophecy and Eschatology are. “ [/FONT][/COLOR]

1Cr 15:1 Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand,


1Cr 15:2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast [fn] the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain.


1Cr 15:3 For I delivered to you [fn] as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures,


1Cr 15:4 and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures,


The Gospel Paul preached was; Jesus died for our sins, He was buried, and He was raised on the third day.

.

 

[chadman]

Salvation by grace alone through faith alone is the Gospel preached by the Apostles and revealed to us in the Word of God.

Show me the one scripture that uses the phrase in the actual text that says:
'Grace alone'
'Faith alone'

 

[chadman]

As is most likely they case in reality rather than the question being presented: Would we venture to guess or estimate that 99% of Evangelical Christians 'BECAME' a Christian BEFORE they ever decided or felt called to PREACH?

The better question is this then: Once people are truly and honestly saved/recapitulated - do they then LOSE their salvation having chosen the wrong interpretation of the Gospel to preach?

Does God know who is going to wind up eventually mis-understanding the Gospel as they move forward in their walk, and decide not to save them in the first place since they cannot lose their salvation?

Is it about a 50/50 chance any of use are not saved if we pick the wrong way to 'understand' the scriptures?

And my favorite question asked twice before with not one response - CAN A SAVED PERSON BE SCRIPTURALLY ACCURSED?

 

[Fred's Wife]

Show me the one scripture that uses the phrase in the actual text that says:
'Grace alone'
'Faith alone'

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Since Scripture must interpret Scripture, we can look at John 10:1-7

John 10:1 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.

John 10:2 But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep.

John 10:3 To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out.

John 10:4 And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.

John 10:5 And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.

John 10:6 This parable spake Jesus unto them: but they understood not what things they were which he spake unto them.

John 10:7 Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep.

There is no "actual text" that says "Grace alone" and "Faith alone", but Ephesians 2:8 specifically states that there is NO other way to get saved EXCEPT by "grace alone" through "faith alone" and John 10:1-7 states the same thing....salvation is only through faith in Jesus Christ alone (He is the "door"). I certainly don't see that there is ANYTHING added to "grace through faith". Therefore the actual phrase is there utilizing other words.

 

[chadman]

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

There is no "actual text" that says "Grace alone" and "Faith alone",

Actually not true. I know no place the text says Grace Alone. Faith Alone is used once. In James 2:24 we find the only instance of the phrase 'faith alone'.

24You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.

I don't like it when we Baptists add these pat phrases that are not even in the Bible overreaching to get our point across. We tell people how we believe the Bible, then we go add things to it to fit our intepretations better. Why can't we just say what it says, and then explain the Scriptures.

How many neophyte Baptists and Evangelicals think that the phase in the Bible 'Faith Alone' refers to salvation through grace - rather than in relation to justification and works? Without looking that is....without looking at the Bible, how many confuse these two things?

That is the purpose of marketing and mantras.

but Ephesians 2:8 specifically states that there is NO other way to get saved EXCEPT by "grace alone" through "faith alone"

Actually, the TEXT very specifically does NOT say faith alone or grace alone in Ephesians 2:8. You may choose to interpret this meaning and all of it's conotations - that's perfectly fine. But do not add to the Scriptures words that are not there.

 

[Steven2006]

Are you suggesting that something additional than by grace through faith, is required in order to be saved?