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Two "pointer" .....
- Thread starter wpe3bql
- Start date
No.....not at all.
Many deny Adam died in the fall they believe he was only wounded a little bit.
Many deny the P......instead they settle for the false imitation eternal security known as once saved always saved no matter how you live.
I think that it is incorrect. It assumes a calvinistic quality to their theology that may not exist (they may just have two views in common). If they started off as a Calvinist and then rejected 3 points....then maybe. But a #pointer assumes a calvinistic trajectory that may not exist (the "T" and "P" may carry different baggage).
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Depends on what "most folks" means. But I would say your statement is incorrect.
There are quite a few (perhaps even most) here who are what is called Christmas Calvinist - no "L" (Noel - get it?) no Limited atonement. Christ died for all men (though they are reluctant to be called calvinist - like myself).
The objection being that if Christ died for all men, all would be saved.
However, that doesn't follow because God makes the rules whether it is logical to us or not, whether it makes no sense to us or not.
Here is proof.
2 Peter 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
Here are those who 1) have bought by the Lord 2) deny the Lord and 3) will suffer destruction.
Jesus purchased the entire human race and we are His to do with as He pleases:
Psalm 115:3 But our God is in the heavens: he hath done whatsoever he hath pleased.
Proverbs 16:4 The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.
In actuality this is just another form of calvinism - double predestination.
That is: God not only passes by those who are not elect he predestines them to damnation as He passes by. This is a hard sell but some calvin thinking theologians try to make it.
OR the decree is - "all men are lost", then He chooses the elect passing by everyone else. This then requires more dogma and human reasoning.
And so it is when we try in vain to think God's thoughts, sooner or later the whole schema of human reasoning collapses into one of two heaps
1) God is the author of sin - hypercalvinism.
2) God is not sovereign - hyperarianism.
each side with their own armory of scripture
each side throwing the other into the Lake of Fire.
Ecclesiastes 8:17 Then I beheld all the work of God, that a man cannot find out the work that is done under the sun: because though a man labour to seek it out, yet he shall not find it; yea further; though a wise man think to know it, yet shall he not be able to find it.
But the fact is that God does indeed enter into a human scriptural line of reasoning with us.
Isaiah 1:18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.
Tulips are nice but the Lily of the Valley is better.
HankD
The objection being that if Christ died for all men, all would be saved.
However, that doesn't follow because God makes the rules whether it is logical to us or not, whether it makes no sense to us or not.
Here is proof.
2 Peter 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
Here are those who 1) have bought by the Lord 2) deny the Lord and 3) will suffer destruction.
Jesus purchased the entire human race and we are His to do with as He pleases:
Psalm 115:3 But our God is in the heavens: he hath done whatsoever he hath pleased.
Proverbs 16:4 The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.
In actuality this is just another form of calvinism - double predestination.
That is: God not only passes by those who are not elect he predestines them to damnation as He passes by. This is a hard sell but some calvin thinking theologians try to make it.
OR the decree is - "all men are lost", then He chooses the elect passing by everyone else. This then requires more dogma and human reasoning.
And so it is when we try in vain to think God's thoughts, sooner or later the whole schema of human reasoning collapses into one of two heaps
1) God is the author of sin - hypercalvinism.
2) God is not sovereign - hyperarianism.
each side with their own armory of scripture
each side throwing the other into the Lake of Fire.
Ecclesiastes 8:17 Then I beheld all the work of God, that a man cannot find out the work that is done under the sun: because though a man labour to seek it out, yet he shall not find it; yea further; though a wise man think to know it, yet shall he not be able to find it.
But the fact is that God does indeed enter into a human scriptural line of reasoning with us.
Isaiah 1:18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.
Tulips are nice but the Lily of the Valley is better.
HankD
quantumfaith
Active Member
Adam did not die "in the fall", he lived several more centuries.
How do YOU live differently that insures your salvation? (Do you "commit" 30% less sin then someone who "settles" for the OSAS position)
Yes it is incorrect. If one truly understood the "T" (total depravity), they would at least be a four-pointer.
Hello QF,
We have not interacted in awhile:wavey:
17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
17 and of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, thou dost not eat of it, for in the day of thine eating of it -- dying thou dost die.'The text speaks of spiritual death, with physical death to follow.....dying thou shalt surely die.
I have heard it preached this way many times over.......do you have a different understanding on it?
Adam died that day...spiritually......physical death was to follow later on.
Today people are born physically alive ,mentally alert, but spiritually dead.
The original teaching of perserverance of the saints includes the idea of an active human responsibility and duty to strive after holiness of life in thought word and deed. The believer could be fully confident to go forth and serve God in his kingdom with all his strength knowing that God would be at work in him.
There could be an assurance of faith as the believer does these things that peter describes as making your calling and election sure;
2 Peter 1 King James Version (KJV)
1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:
2 Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord,
3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.
10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.
12 Wherefore I will not be negligent to put you always in remembrance of these things, though ye know them, and be established in the present truth.
13 Yea, I think it meet, as long as I am in this tabernacle, to stir you up by putting you in remembrance;
This section should be a frequently read and prayed portion of scripture.....
Love is the fulfilling of the law. This requires an outward focus from us.
Mortification of sin and prayer are essential to this.
Some time age...maybe the 70's....it was taught that once saved, always saved, no matter how you live,or what you do.....I read some who taught this...RB Theime for one who said you can lie, steal, blaspheme,and even deny Christ and still go to heaven.....
I do not know, perhaps a poll is in order. But certainly many Arminians accept the "T" and then reverse its impact with prevenient grace. And as Baptists, they accept OSAS. And do not let someone substitute the Once Professed Always Saved canard in its place.
So I would expect the majority of posters would say they believe both these doctrines are sound. And yes, I do not think the "T" is sound, I think it is mistaken.
:laugh: No "L"....I like that. I think that many "Christmas Calvinists" do not like the name "Calvinist" because it can be a misnomer. One can, for example, be a five point Calvinist (accepting all points put forth at Dort) and still reject limited atonement as commonly understood by TULIP (and be a four pointer by that standard). Others may reject the title "Calvinist" because it is understood differently in some circles (some Calvinists hold that to be one you must actually believe in Calvinism as a whole...not just it's soteriological influence). I find it better just to leave the title out of discussions and speak plainly about what we believe.
Yeas Adam did indeed die in the fall of mankind. He died spiritually, and that has transcended through the times and infected everyone of us until this very day.
Genesis 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
Someone pointed out that "dying you shall die" is a possible translation.
The verse ends with moth tmoth both words are a form of the word death.
moth - infinitive - a verbal noun.
tmoth - imperfect "tense" (incomplete action).
It is a little difficult to put into English words : here are some English attempts:
Douay-Rheims
Genesis 2:17 But of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat. For in what day soever thou shalt eat of it, thou shalt die the death.
The Bible in Basic English (BBE)
Genesis 2:17 But of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you may not take; for on the day when you take of it, death will certainly come to you.
Young's Literal translation
Genesis 2:17 and of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, thou dost not eat of it, for in the day of thine eating of it -- dying thou dost die.'
New American Bible
Genesis 2:17 except the tree of knowledge of good and bad. From that tree you shall not eat; the moment you eat from it you are surely doomed to die."
The idea is that when the fruit is eaten the process of death will begin in you and you will eventually succumb to it.
(IMO) It is a viable translation ""dying you shall die".
I don't believe (but I'm not sure) that this passage addresses the second death which is a reality since they were subsequently and literally separated from God indicated by the expulsion from the garden of Eden.
Then (although no detailed explanation is given) mankind could still approach God but only in a proscribed manner of blood sacrifice (e.g. Abel).
HankD
Someone pointed out that "dying you shall die" is a possible translation.
The verse ends with moth tmoth both words are a form of the word death.
moth - infinitive - a verbal noun.
tmoth - imperfect "tense" (incomplete action).
It is a little difficult to put into English words : here are some English attempts:
Douay-Rheims
Genesis 2:17 But of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat. For in what day soever thou shalt eat of it, thou shalt die the death.
The Bible in Basic English (BBE)
Genesis 2:17 But of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you may not take; for on the day when you take of it, death will certainly come to you.
Young's Literal translation
Genesis 2:17 and of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, thou dost not eat of it, for in the day of thine eating of it -- dying thou dost die.'
New American Bible
Genesis 2:17 except the tree of knowledge of good and bad. From that tree you shall not eat; the moment you eat from it you are surely doomed to die."
The idea is that when the fruit is eaten the process of death will begin in you and you will eventually succumb to it.
(IMO) It is a viable translation ""dying you shall die".
I don't believe (but I'm not sure) that this passage addresses the second death which is a reality since they were subsequently and literally separated from God indicated by the expulsion from the garden of Eden.
Then (although no detailed explanation is given) mankind could still approach God but only in a proscribed manner of blood sacrifice (e.g. Abel).
HankD
RE the acrostic TULIP.
Yes but remember it is an acrostic to make it easier to identify the essential doctrines of calvinism so-called.
Another area of dispute is the "U" unconditional election.
Actually, for the sake of the debate (If unconditional election is true), I don't think God just Willy-Nilly chose those to be saved:
Ephesians 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
It was according to his own "purpose" after the counsel of His own will, a counsel which we did not attend and He has not revealed (which is witnessed by the endless c vs. a debate).
No doubt our helpless and hopeless estate and inability was the main topic of this counsel.
As for flowers, He is the Rose of Sharon, the Lily of the Valley.
HankD
Rebel said:
Well, we seem to agree on 4 of the 5 points, I believe once a person is actually saved, its settled. (OASIS) No one ever losses God's salvation.
I believe mankind is fallen, i.e. suffering the consequences of Adam's sin. This resulted in spiritual separation from God, referred to as being spiritually dead, and being spiritually corrupted, with a wicked heart. But, I do not believe the fall resulted in total spiritual inability, I believe the fallen (all mankind) are conceived with limited spiritual ability, but by the practice of sin, or the hardening by God, they can loose their limited ability, i.e. the first soil of Matthew 13, and the unbelieving Jews of Romans chapter 11. However, all the other three soils, the rest of mankind, had the ability to seek God and trust in Christ.
I am with you on "Unconditional Election" but probably not fully. I believe 2 Thessalonians 2:13 teaches we are chosen, elected, for salvation through faith in the truth. Thus our individual election is (1) conditional, and (2) occurs during our lifetime, after we put our complete trust in Christ.
I believe we agree that Christ died for all mankind.
And hopefully, we agree God's invitation to believe in Christ can be either rejected or not fully accepted or fully accepted. Thus this grace of the revelation of the gospel of Christ is resistible.