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Two Salvations?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Lacy Evans, Sep 20, 2006.

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  1. Lacy Evans

    Lacy Evans New Member

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    Tiny Tim posted this very good list of questions regarding the teaching of Millennial Exclusion. I though it might warrant a new thread since that one is already over the page # limit. I will show his post and we can talk about it if you wan.

     
    #1 Lacy Evans, Sep 20, 2006
  2. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    I notice the attention keeps getting drawn away from Lot. Yes, Lot's wife lost her life...but this is chastening, not abandonment. Lot was called righteous. Lot's "works" while in S&G were not "righteous"...but his standing didn't change in the eyes of God.
     
    #2 webdog, Sep 20, 2006
  3. Lacy Evans

    Lacy Evans New Member

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    Yes but more succinctly put, the definition of the word "salvation" depends upon the context. Easily demonstrated by this verse.

    Ac 27:31 -
    Paul said to the centurion and to the soldiers, Except these abide in the ship, ye cannot be saved.

    So there could be (as Nee sated in the book you quoted) several "salvations". But we all do agree that, in the big picture and in an eternal-sovereign sense, it is all grace. Any crowns, reward, prize, etc will be merely a glorious reflection of Christ's glory. But in a practical work-it-out-everyday sense, you are correct in your assessment.

    Yes that is what I believe. But not cut off in an absolute sense.

    Ps 139:8 -
    If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.

    Just a temporary "grounding" from the Millennial reign.

    I need clarification. Do you mean that in order to enter the kingdom, they would have to beieve in a literal Kingdom? Or do you mean that in order to accept the doctrine they would? (Obviously the latter would make sense.)

    While I allow for subtle contextual differences, I think I can prove that they are generally synonymous terms. I'll have to get to it later because I am at work right now.

    lacy
     
    #3 Lacy Evans, Sep 20, 2006
  4. Lacy Evans

    Lacy Evans New Member

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    I agree. Like I said, Lot repented, and was found (By God) righteous. What would have happened to him had he stayed in Sodom? That is the question.
     
    #4 Lacy Evans, Sep 20, 2006
  5. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    Had he stayed in Sodom, his standing would not have changed in the least. His family was rescued from the destruction to come on the fact they were counted righteous...not because they repented first.
     
    #5 webdog, Sep 20, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 20, 2006
  6. tinytim

    tinytim <img src =/tim2.jpg>

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    Yes, I mean to accept the doctrine.

    And what about the other verse I posted...
    2 Peter 1:11
    (11) For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

    How does the term "everlasting kingdom" come into play here?

    And another question, what does one have to do to get "grounded" from the kingdom?

    How do we know where the line is so we don't cross it?
    If it is perfection, then the kingdom may have a king, but no subjects.

    I asked one time about a month ago, where the Christians that were excluded would go, while the kingdome was going on.... am I to understand that they would go to Hell?
     
    #6 tinytim, Sep 20, 2006
  7. tinytim

    tinytim <img src =/tim2.jpg>

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    Here is where I am with this thought..

    I believe in the literal 1000yrs.
    I also believe that the faithful Christians will rule and reign with Christ.
    But here is where we differ:

    I believe that the less faithful, and only God knows who they are, will be the ones we rule and reign. Think about this, it would be no fun to get to rule NY if no one lived there!

    I guess the line I draw with this doctrine is the exclusion part... I can see where some may be excluded from ruling, but not completely from the kingdom.

    Another question, if the excluded goes to Hell, is it just their souls, or bodys both?
     
    #7 tinytim, Sep 20, 2006
  8. tinytim

    tinytim <img src =/tim2.jpg>

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    I'll be back tonight... gotta get some work done.
     
    #8 tinytim, Sep 20, 2006
  9. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    TinyTim, I'm with you on the ruling aspect. When God created Adam, He did so with the intent that man would rule over His creation, while God ruled over him.

    If we are going to rulewith Christ some day in the Kingdom, it's not going to be over other creation...but other men. If there is nobody in the Kingdom but God and the labeled "righteous", there is no need for God to rule over animals.
     
    #9 webdog, Sep 20, 2006
  10. deacon jd

    deacon jd New Member

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    2 Peter 2:8 is very clear that Lots soul was righteous while he lived in Sodom, and that their wicked conversation vexed his soul.
     
    #10 deacon jd, Sep 20, 2006
  11. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    #11 Ed Edwards, Sep 20, 2006
  12. Lacy Evans

    Lacy Evans New Member

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    There are other possibilities. Remember there are layers of authority. A president is over a governor who is over a mayor who is over a depertment head, etc. Also, I'm not sure that the kingdom won't be populated by people in natural bodies otherwise who would this verse be talking about?

    Who are the "nations" that are decievable?


    But some of the verses say "shall not enter"?
    Mt 10:28 -
    And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

    This brings up another question. Where do you ever find a non-believer bodily in hell? They are not raised up until after the 1000 years and hell has already been cast into the LOF. The only people raised up, before the GWT, with bodies, are Christians.

    Not all Millennial Exclusionist believe the "Hell" part. AE Wilson, Zane Hodges, and Charles Stanley, etc. don't (didn't) believe it.

    Lacy
     
    #12 Lacy Evans, Sep 20, 2006
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  13. Diggin in da Word

    Diggin in da Word New Member

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    Um, Ed....

    yer slipping again. yer link takes one back to this page.
     
    #13 Diggin in da Word, Sep 20, 2006
  14. EdSutton

    EdSutton New Member

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    Where does Scripture ever say that Lot "repented", of anything? He became the Mayor of Sodom, in actuality. Frankly, one must not be using any of the translations I normally use, if one can find any Scripture that says that Lot "repented". But Scripture certainly does refer to Lot as righteous or just, as well as imply the same, in total, more than any other man or woman in it's pages, as well as, to my knowledge anyway, directly associating and identifying him as the only individual in Scripture specifically referred to as "godly".

    Ed
     
    #14 EdSutton, Sep 20, 2006
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  15. Linda64

    Linda64 New Member

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    Lacy--

    How can the body be destroyed in hell and "purged" at the same time--for 1,000 years? That's highly unlikely! What would be coming out of hell after the 1,000 years?
     
    #15 Linda64, Sep 20, 2006
  16. EdSutton

    EdSutton New Member

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    Just as long as you make sure to differentiate which Ed it is you are referring to as "slipping", ya' understand! :tongue3: :smilewinkgrin: :laugh: :laugh:

    Ed
     
    #16 EdSutton, Sep 20, 2006
  17. EdSutton

    EdSutton New Member

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    Good question! :thumbsup: I shall await the answer.

    Ed
     
    #17 EdSutton, Sep 20, 2006
  18. Lacy Evans

    Lacy Evans New Member

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    He certainly repented of his affinity for Sodom. (He went from pitching his tent toward Sodom, to being a "contributing member of the community, to getting the heck outta Dodge!)

    lacy
     
    #18 Lacy Evans, Sep 20, 2006
  19. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    I don't find him repenting of anything. He left Sodom to save his life and that of his family. His selfishness continued when he chose the nicer land to live in...and God "rewarded" him accodingly. He remained righteous the entire time.
     
    #19 webdog, Sep 20, 2006
  20. James_Newman

    James_Newman New Member

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    I'm not sure what the point is with Lot. Whether or not he 'repented', if he had stayed in Sodom he would have been partaker with them in their judgment. What your missing is that it is possible for a 'righteous' person (positionally righteous, saved by the blood) to dwell in Sodom.

    Ephesians 5:6-7
    6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.
    7 Be not ye therefore partakers with them.

    Christians who choose to dwell in Sodom will be partaker of the sins of Sodom, unless they come out of her.
     
    #20 James_Newman, Sep 20, 2006
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