Unam Sanctam--only Catholics go to Heaven

[DHK]

ahh, but the difference being the RCC claims the pope is infallable in spiritual matters of doctrines.
SBC makes no such claim.
Slavery is another topic, start a new thread if you ant to discuss it.

The recent Catechism of the RCC states in no uncertain terms that Muslims are saved and are going to heaven.

 

[tragic_pizza]

God is pretty big. Maybe they're right.

I don't think so, but who am I?

 

[church mouse guy]

Can you document that?

The recent Catechism of the RCC states in no uncertain terms that Muslims are saved and are going to heaven.

Is that document available online? That would seem to be a contradiction of everything in Scripture but the late Pope was no theologian. It is my understanding that the late Pope wanted strict Catholic law enforced. What is your opinion on the late Pope and dogma or doctrine?

 

[Eliyahu]

Slavery is another topic, start a new thread if you ant to discuss it.

It is quite correct.
But, once Slavery is mentioned above, I would mention that Roman Catholic supported Slavery ver much as we know in the case of Abraham Lincoln, Ciniquy.
Catholics just killed tens of millions in South America, which was the typical way of Catholic. Where there was Catholic majority, there were the masacres and genocides like Spanish Civil War, Holocaust, Crusade, Bartholomew Masacre, Irish Masacre in 1641, Rwanda genocide, Croatian genocide etc. Catholics usually cover them up.

 

[Rufus_1611]

The recent Catechism of the RCC states in no uncertain terms that Muslims are saved and are going to heaven.

Yup...'tis one more demonstration of the Catholic church teaching another Jesus.

841 The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."330

http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p123a9p3.htm#841​

...

"But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him." - 2 Corinthians 11:3-4​

 

[DHK]

Is that document available online? That would seem to be a contradiction of everything in Scripture but the late Pope was no theologian. It is my understanding that the late Pope wanted strict Catholic law enforced. What is your opinion on the late Pope and dogma or doctrine?

841 The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."

http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/para/841.htm

 

[Eliyahu]

Rufus,

Useful information.

I told you ! that RC change their doctrine, catechism to suite the situation and the powerful people.

 

[church mouse guy]

Thanks for the link to the modern catechism. Now the question becomes the relationship between the catechism and the papal bull. Once I had a chance to buy a paperback copy of this new catechism for $2.50 but I did not buy it. At that time, I was not interested.

There is this note that seems to support the papal bull:

780 The Church in this world is the sacrament of salvation, the sign and the instrument of the communion of God and men.

And 816 defines the sole Church of Christ as that which was entrusted to Peter.

Are Catholics saying that the new catechism overrides the papal bull?

 

[Agnus_Dei]

The recent Catechism of the RCC states in no uncertain terms that Muslims are saved and are going to heaven.

First the Catechism isn’t a freshly drafted document, it’s in large measure a synthesis of other documents, and therefore one needs to look up the original quotations in the original sources to fully understand them. But then again I’m not expecting any fundamentalist to go outside of his authority of Chick, Cloud, Hunt or Boettner who’s the authority on all things Catholic.

To understand the Catechism 841, we need to examine Lumen Gentium (LG) the Vatican II document found here: http://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_const_19641121_lumen-gentium_en.html from where 841 is quoted from, which is from LG 16, but we need to back up to LG 13 to understand the whole picture.

LG 13 states that “All men are called to belong to the new people of God” and concludes: “All men are called to be part of this catholic unity of the people of God which in promoting universal peace presages it. And there belong to or are related to it in various ways, the Catholic faithful, all who believe in Christ, and indeed the whole of mankind, for all men are called by the grace of God to salvation.”

LG 14 concerns itself with Catholics and 14 repudiates the idea that Islam or any other religions are as good as the Catholic Church.

LG 15 turns to the non-Catholic Christians and states: “The Church recognizes that in many ways she is linked with those who, being baptized, are honored with the name of Christian, though they do not profess the faith in its entirety [e.g., Protestants] or do not preserve unity of communion with the successor of Peter [e.g., Orthodox].

Note 15 doesn’t say they are part of the Church, only that they are “linked” to it many ways, some of which by Scripture, faith in Christ, baptism…

LG 16 doesn’t say that non-Christians are on par with the Church. LG 16 starts with the Jews in that they are more closely related to the Church than any other non-Christian religion. Only after this do we read: "But the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims.”

Note that this isn’t saying everyone will be saved, nor that there are many paths to salvation, if anything from LG 13, the council has been describing how people are progressively more distant from the Church.

“…the plan of salvation also includes," we should not understand it as saying that non-Jewish theists are saved. It means that God desires their salvation and has made plans for their salvation; plans that include giving them graces that lead in the direction of salvation and the Church. That doesn’t mean that being nothing more than non-Jewish theists or Muslims can save them.

The council goes on in LG 16 to note the following:

1. They "profess to hold the faith of Abraham." The operative word here is "profess"—they claim to hold the faith of Abraham. In reality, their faith is an imperfect version of the faith that comes from Abraham, but they are trying to follow in the footsteps of Abraham, and the Council gives them credit for that.

2. "Together with us they adore the one, merciful God." God is aware of and acknowledges all that is good and true in the worship offered to him, however imperfect an understanding of him a worshiper may have. While Muslims, like Jews, do not accept the Trinity, they do acknowledge that God is the only true God and that he is merciful. This means that they honor things that are true about God but have a limited understanding of him.

Christians have a fuller understanding of God because he has revealed more to us about himself: specifically, that he is a Trinity. This doctrine cannot be deduced by human reason; it can only be known by revelation.

Failure to accept this revelation of the Christian age does not stop Muslims from worshiping God any more than it stops Jews. It means only that they know less about God and that they have erroneous corollary ideas (for instance, that Jesus is not the Son of God).

3. Muslims recognize that God is "mankind’s judge on the last day." This is another link they have to biblical faith. Muslims may have erroneous ideas about some of the things that will occur before, after, or around this event, but that much they have right.

In any event during my studies since I left the fundamental grip and began to think for myself and read other material, there should be no doubt that the Church recognizes that followers of Islam have elements of truth. But while it is possible for them, as for all men for that matter to be saved if they live up to the light God has given them. It cannot however be said that Islam is a path of salvation or that Muslims do not need to become Christians.

Blessings

 

[church mouse guy]

Angus Dei, I just noted that you are snowed in today evidently since we are both from Indy. This is a terrible winter storm here.

Let me assure you that I am not using any of the fundamentalist sources that you sited above. To tell you the truth I was listening to a tape of Walter Martin who gave the source that I have linked from Catholicsm.

I totally disagree that anyone other than a Christian goes to Heaven. I consider Jews lost.

What I want to know is does the Vatican consider this newly translated cathecism to override a papal bull on the subject of Salvation or does the papal bull still stand that there is no Salvation outside of the walls of the Roman Catholic Church? I want to represent the RCC correctly but I am having trouble understanding the precise legal status of the documents involved. What is your opinion?

 

[Eliyahu]

I think Agnus Dei presented the explanation conveneient very much for both parties, Christians and Muslims. I wonder why Catholic didn't preach such theory at the time of Crusade.

How can they compromise with this?
Acts 4
12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

 

[donnA]

The recent Catechism of the RCC states in no uncertain terms that Muslims are saved and are going to heaven.

oh good grief, how come pople can not see through them when they make statements like that.

 

[donnA]

God is pretty big. Maybe they're right.

I don't think so, but who am I?

God is pretty big, but His written word is trusty worthy, nd it tells us how people go to heaven. And the muslims aren't doin it.

 

[donnA]

Catholics just killed tens of millions in South America, which was the typical way of Catholic. Where there was Catholic majority, there were the masacres and genocides like Spanish Civil War, Holocaust, Crusade, Bartholomew Masacre, Irish Masacre in 1641, Rwanda genocide, Croatian genocide etc. Catholics usually cover them up.

don't forget poverty is prevenalt in most if not all countries where RCC rules.

 

[church mouse guy]

Now that is a point that I make in private a lot, DonnA! Catholic countries are the poorest countries in the Christian world! I think that they truly believe that they are the only ones going to Heaven and that the rest of mankind goes to hell, just as the Popes have stated repeatedly as quoted by Eliyahu (a tip of the hat to Eliyahu!).

 

[tragic_pizza]

God is pretty big, but His written word is trusty worthy, nd it tells us how people go to heaven. And the muslims aren't doin it.

... which is why I said "I don't think so."

There's some wiggle room, I think, in the whole "sheep not of this fold" discussion. In any case, I'll err on the side of sharing the Good News with everyone and considering all Christians, including Catholic and even Baptist Christians, my brothers and sisters.

 

[DHK]

In any event during my studies since I left the fundamental grip and began to think for myself and read other material, there should be no doubt that the Church recognizes that followers of Islam have elements of truth. But while it is possible for them, as for all men for that matter to be saved if they live up to the light God has given them. It cannot however be said that Islam is a path of salvation or that Muslims do not need to become Christians.
Blessings

But here is the catch.
You say: "It is possible for them, as for all men for that matter to be saved..."

Evangelicals have always beleived that. We believe that has always been that to be the truth, and that to be saved one must have faith in the shed blood of Jesus Christ.

The RCC have always believed that all can be saved through the RCC alone. That is their historic position. It hasn't changed any. If it has then one of two things would have happened. All the Catholics would have converted to Protestantism and there would be no need for the RCC and all of its doctrines, or vice-versa.
The truth of the matter is the RCC is trying its best at the latter--to trying to bring all religions under its umbrella. It is trying to be more accomodating (however subtle it must be) to every religion, and bring it under its umbrella, and at the same time claim that salvation is only through the RCC.

 

[donnA]

... which is why I said "I don't think so."

There's some wiggle room, I think, in the whole "sheep not of this fold" discussion. In any case, I'll err on the side of sharing the Good News with everyone and considering all Christians, including Catholic and even Baptist Christians, my brothers and sisters.

It isn't catholics or baptists I talked about in your quote o mine, it was muslims. we can know for sure they are going to heaven becasue of what scripture says. God tells what His mind on salvation is, it's called, the bible.

 

[DQuixote]

The plan of salvation, the Good News, the Gospel, the Truth, is clear. We can squeeze it, shrink it, shake it, bounce it all over the place, and it remains the same. It is not religious organizations that determine how we respond to it, nor is it modern-day prophets with a "new" interpretation or revelation (Smith, White, Eddy, Moon, Copeland, et al) or even Christian denominations. The Holy Spirit moves in the lives of individuals, and as individuals we respond, being personally convicted.

No 10-step program, no formula, steps, provisions, policies, procedures, philosophies, intermediaries are necessary -- they aren't even contemplated in Holy Writ. Whatever your denominational background and upbringing, there is only one plan of salvation. Its evidence sparkles throughout the NT:

2 Cor 4:3-4
2 Tim 1:9
Titus 2:11
Ephesians 2:8-9
......and ultimately......
John 3:16-17
John 14:6
Romans 10:8-13

I don't need the RCC, the JW, the SDA, the LDS, the SBC, the UCC, to interpret that for me, Hallelujah!!

:thumbs: :wavey: :applause:

 

[Agnus_Dei]

Angus Dei, I just noted that you are snowed in today evidently since we are both from Indy. This is a terrible winter storm here.

I’m not a native Hoosier, so I’m still getting use to these snows. I would’ve liked to have seen more snow and less ice.

Let me assure you that I am not using any of the fundamentalist sources that you sited above. To tell you the truth I was listening to a tape of Walter Martin who gave the source that I have linked from Catholicsm.

There are plenty of anti-Catholic groups out there and I can assure you that what you cited by Walter Martin isn’t his own. Sadly, I’m sure Walter didn’t make any attempt to verify or investigate the claims he put forth.

I totally disagree that anyone other than a Christian goes to Heaven. I consider Jews lost.

So how about the remote Muslim or isolated tribes of Papua New Guinea, who’ve never heard the Christian Gospel, who knows right from wrong and strives to lead a righteous life and actually without knowing it, does what Christ asks of us: feeds and clothes the poor in his tribe, visits the sick and down trodden and help comfort them. Would God judge them based simply on the luck of the draw of where they were born, which will determine whether or not they hear the Gospel?

I want to represent the RCC correctly

It’s great that you want to represent the Catholic Church accurately. I believe it’s important we gather the facts from both sides and verify all quotes and citations as honestly as possible and if that takes weeks or months of research and study, then we owe it ourselves.

What I want to know is does the Vatican consider this newly translated cathecism to override a papal bull on the subject of Salvation or does the papal bull still stand that there is no Salvation outside of the walls of the Roman Catholic Church? …but I am having trouble understanding the precise legal status of the documents involved. What is your opinion?

No I don’t believe the Vatican considers the catechism an override of the Unman Sanctam. It’s my opinion that many take the papal bull of Pope Boniface out of context, without knowing first the history or theology based around the bull.

Unman Sanctam is a non sequitur in logic and it doesn’t follow at all that all non-Catholics are damned to Hell.

A non-Catholic cannot submit or be subject to the Pope. Only Catholics can submit to the Pope. Boniface doesn’t define membership in the Church and the Bull is not a be-all-end-all statement on the subject since it doesn’t stand-alone. The statement has a context in both Church history and Catholic theology.

In the 14th century, French Catholics were not submitting to the Pope and there was a power struggle crisis between Pope Boniface and the Catholic king of France, Philip IV. Thus this prompted Pope Boniface to issue a statement that used strong language to address the issues that were facing the Church; see my post 11.

I’d be happy to send you links for further reading if you’re interested.