Unam Sanctam--only Catholics go to Heaven

[BobRyan]

Catholics are no longer told to believe this. Catholicism officially considers any Trinitarian Christian to be a Christian.

Yes, it is a change in the "Tradition," but Catholic apologists would never accept that such is the case.

My thinking is that since Catholicism no longer entails this belief, just be glad that this error is over with and let the past remain in the past.

The RCC claims that here doctrines are "infallible" they can not be in error - so the decrees and laws of the Lateran IV for example MUST continue to hold as "flawlessly infallible".

That means that STILL today we find the RCC teaching that ONLY Catholics participate in the Bible NEW COVENANT for the NEW COVENANT is LIMITED to the Catholic Mass.

This is their claim STILL TODAY!!

The difference is that TODAY they agree to ADD "extrabiblical means" of salvation to be open to non-Catholics.

Something I doubt any non-Catholic would consider "valid".

In Christ,

Bob

 

[donnA]

So how about the remote Muslim or isolated tribes of Papua New Guinea, who’ve never heard the Christian Gospel, who knows right from wrong and strives to lead a righteous life and actually without knowing it, does what Christ asks of us: feeds and clothes the poor in his tribe, visits the sick and down trodden and help comfort them. Would God judge them based simply on the luck of the draw of where they were born, which will determine whether or not they hear the Gospel?

your talking about works salvation, not biblical salvation by grace. God saves one way, His way, the way He has told us in scripture.

 

[church mouse guy]

I think that Walter Martin was using Martin Luther as his source, for the record. This is a standard Protestant observation about the Roman Catholic Church and I think that all but American Roman Catholics would freely admit it as true. The words of the papal bull are quoted directly from the New Advent Catholic Encyclopedia online.

I cannot see that Pope Boniface VIII was not aware of what he was saying when he said, "Now, therefore, we declare, say, determine and pronounce that for every human creature it is necessary for salvation to be subject to the authority of the Roman pontiff" (Porro subesse Romano Pontifici omni humanae creaturae declaramus, dicimus, definimus, et pronuntiamus omnino esse de necessitate salutis).

Certainly, he knew that the words "omni humanae creaturae" included more than just the people of France. It is clear that a human creature not subject to the Roman Catholic pontiff would not obtain Salvation. The pontiff clearly stated that being subject to the pope was a necessary part of Salvation. That clearly means that one must be a Roman Catholic in order to be saved and that clearly means that one who is not a Roman Catholic is lost.

This Roman Catholic dogma or doctrine is now 700 years old. It is totally false, as many have noted here on this thread. Catholicism seems unable to stop judging and condemning the Eastern Orthodox churches, who left in 1054 AD, and now the Protestant churches. One wonders if the Roman Catholic Church would still execute Martin Luther if they could?

 

[tragic_pizza]

Catholicism seems unable to stop judging and condemning the Eastern Orthodox churches, who left in 1054 AD, and now the Protestant churches. One wonders if the Roman Catholic Church would still execute Martin Luther if they could?

Funny you should mention being unable to stop judging. There seems to be a lot of that problem here.

 

[church mouse guy]

Presbyterians are no help...

Funny you should mention being unable to stop judging. There seems to be a lot of that problem here.

Presbyterians are no help. The PCUSA probably tends to believe in the idea that everyone goes to Heaven, even Presbyterians--although the Pope says that all Presbyterians go to the lake of fire.

 

[Eliyahu]

We should distinguish between discernment and JUdgment. We should discern what is right and what is wrong. CMG has done very well by analizing what RC said and proclaimed. We should learn from the history even though RC's may want to cover up the past.

Even the so-called first Pope, Peter was wrong when he was condemned by Paul ( Gal 2:14), let alone he denied his Lord 3 times.
How much more errors would have been made by other popes?

RC may want to say that it was because he didn't say or behave from the chair of Peter. Oh, dear, then Popes must carry the Cathera attached onto their hips all the time! They need a special glue! Maybe their chair has special magic power!

 

[Agnus_Dei]

We should distinguish between discernment and JUdgment. We should discern what is right and what is wrong. CMG has done very well by analizing what RC said and proclaimed. We should learn from the history even though RC's may want to cover up the past.

Even the so-called first Pope, Peter was wrong when he was condemned by Paul ( Gal 2:14), let alone he denied his Lord 3 times.
How much more errors would have been made by other popes?

RC may want to say that it was because he didn't say or behave from the chair of Peter. Oh, dear, then Popes must carry the Cathera attached onto their hips all the time! They need a special glue! Maybe their chair has special magic power!

Hi Eliyahu: You seem to be a walking encyclopedia and an expert in all things Catholic. Let me ask you a few questions since you know so much about Catholic history.

1. What was the motive behind Pope Boniface issued papal bull “Unam Sanctam”?
2. When was the last time a Pope spoke ex-cathedra?
3. When a Catholic speaks of a “chair of Peter”, is this chair literal?

Simple questions, easy answers for an expert on Roman Catholicism.

 

[Agnus_Dei]

...--although the Pope says that all Presbyterians go to the lake of fire.

You have a source for that quote CMG?

That's an odd quote from someone who claimed that they wanted to represent the Catholic church honestly...

 

[tragic_pizza]

Presbyterians are no help. The PCUSA probably tends to believe in the idea that everyone goes to Heaven, even Presbyterians--although the Pope says that all Presbyterians go to the lake of fire.

"Probably?"

Nice. Get educated before you conclude.

And the Pope says no such thing. Read Agnus' multiple posts on this subject.

 

[DHK]

Presbyterians are no help. The PCUSA probably tends to believe in the idea that everyone goes to Heaven, even Presbyterians--although the Pope says that all Presbyterians go to the lake of fire.

Its more Catholic dogma than the present Pope. If this wasn't true there would have been no need for the Reformation. What was the Pope's attitude then toward Calvin, Knox, and Luther? Why did the Reformation take place if the RCC so loved the Protestants?

 

[tragic_pizza]

Its more Catholic dogma than the present Pope. If this wasn't true there would have been no need for the Reformation. What was the Pope's attitude then toward Calvin, Knox, and Luther? Why did the Reformation take place if the RCC so loved the Protestants?

Why are you rolling your eyes? Do you want an honest discussion, or is there some other motive behind the questions?

 

[church mouse guy]

Read what the Pope said if you think that he says that Presbyterians go to Heaven.

Roman Catholic has changed their stance from time to time so that they can be acceptable to the people. In the past when they have unlimited, uncontrolled power, they said " there is no salvation outside Roman Catholic". That's how they carried out the Inquisition by torturing and killing the people.
Now they can hardly push it forward and they need to be prepared for another Inquisition, the Great Tribulation, and they are now gearing up thru the Strategic Retreat.

Let's see the famous statement on this by Infallible Pope Pius 9 who is also famous for Papal Infallibility.


Pope Pius IX, Singulari Quadem, 1854

"Not without sorrow we have learned that another error, no less destructive, has taken possession of some parts of the Catholic world, and had taken up its abode in the souls of many Catholics who think that one should have good hope of eternal salvation of all those who have never lived in the true Church of Christ. Therefore they are wont to ask very often what will be the lot and condition after death of those who have not submitted in any way to the Catholic faith, and by bringing forward most vain reasons, they make a response favorable to their false opinion. For, it must be held by faith that outside the Apostolic Roman Church , no one can be saved; that this is the only ark of salvation; that he who shall not have entered therein will perish in the flood. truths of this sort should be deeply fixed in the minds of the faithful, lest they be corrupted by false doctrines, whose object is to foster an indifference toward religion, which we see spreading widely and growing strong for the destruction of souls."


http://www.geocities.com/orthopapism/eens_papal.html


You can find plenty of articles on this here:

http://search.yahoo.com/search?p=No...church&fr=yfp-t-429&toggle=1&cop=mss&ei=UTF-8

Tragic Pizza, this doctrine was that the RCC says that only Catholics go to Heaven and everyone else, even Presbyterians like you, go to the lake of fire as far as The Vatican is concerned was enunciated by Pope Boniface VIII and confirmed by many other popes as Eliyahu has taken the trouble to list for you--and the above quotation from Pope Pius IX is not the only one Eliyahu listed. Tragic Pizza, you cannot assert that that is not the position of the RCC unless you can deal with the statements and Bulls of the Popes and explain under Catholic law that your idea that they don't mean what they say is valid. We are reading what Angus Dei says but we don't accept that when the Pope says in Latin "all human beings" that he meant only the French, especially in light of the fact that other popes have agreed that only members of the RCC go to Heaven and everyone else goes to hell. When they say that there is no salvation outside of the walls of the RCC, they mean that you are lost in sin and bound for hell unless you become a Catholic and stay a Catholic. That is the RCC's theological judgment.

 

[DHK]

Why are you rolling your eyes? Do you want an honest discussion, or is there some other motive behind the questions?

The Catholc Church is like a chameleon. It changes whenevr it is convenient to. During the time of the Reformation it had the power of the Kings and Queens behind them. It was a state religion. So it could do whatever it wanted including some of the most gruesome murders possible to mankind. Read of what Bloody Mary did throughout England during her reign. And then during the reformationn, what was the attitudue toward the Reformers? What eventually happened to Luther? And what about Tyndale, Wycliffe? John Huss? These men were martyrs for their faith, all for what? Living Godly Christian lives.

The goal of the Catholic Church has never changed. It wants to make everyone Catholic--to dominate the earth; to be the one world-wide church. It wants to bring every religion under its umbrella. It is against the law for it to carry on gruesome Inquistions and crusades as it did in the past. It is not "politically correct," though they would if they could. They go about it through other means now. They use different means: dialogue, assimilation, and even force through political means when they can get away with it. Their goal is still to become the one world religion. They never have deviated from that. There is no salvation outside of the RCC. They have never deviated from that. They have just couched that in more politically correct terms. They have become more ecumenical to reach their goals. In some cases they have become Charismatic to reach their goal.
They have used Billy Graham very effectively, as well as other ecumenical televangelists, such as David Mainse, who regularly features priests and bishops on his daily programs. The RCC is pulling the wool over the eyes of many believers. And yet their doctrnes remain just as heretical as they did in the days of Luther. Nothing has changed (doctrinally).
It is the evangelicals that are being suckered in by this pagan church that doesn't even preach a gospel message.

 

[D28guy]

"On November 18, 1302, Pope Boniface VIII issued a papal bull entitled "Unam Sanctam" (apparently Latin for the One Holy, meaning the Roman Catholic Church). As far as I know this bull has never been rescinded or contradicted.

New Advent Catholic Encyclopedia defines a bull as, "...For practical purposes a bull may be conveniently defined to be "an Apostolic letter with a leaden seal," to which one may add that in its superscription the pope invariably takes the title of episcopus, servus servorum Dei...."

Here is what Pope Boniface VIII says that Roman Catholicism teaches and I think that this teaching still stands:

"Now, therefore, we declare, say, determine and pronounce that for every human creature it is necessary for salvation to be subject to the authority of the Roman pontiff" (Porro subesse Romano Pontifici omni humanae creaturae declaramus, dicimus, definimus, et pronuntiamus omnino esse de necessitate salutis). "

In adition, the Council of Trent condemned as hell bound anyone who holds to the biblical truths of justification by faith alone and eternal security.

And if all goes according to protocol a Catholic or Catholic sympathiser will post "No, they dont!"....I will post the evidence that they do,with a link...they will say I dont understand what they *really mean* by the plain simple statements they make in those cursings...and then around and around and around the Catholic spin machine we will go.

Sadly,

Mike

 

[Darron Steele]

Catholics are no longer told to believe this. Catholicism officially considers any Trinitarian Christian to be a Christian.

Yes, it is a change in the "Tradition," but Catholic apologists would never accept that such is the case.

My thinking is that since Catholicism no longer entails this belief, just be glad that this error is over with and let the past remain in the past.

The RCC claims that here doctrines are "infallible" they can not be in error - so the decrees and laws of the Lateran IV for example MUST continue to hold as "flawlessly infallible".

That means that STILL today we find the RCC teaching that ONLY Catholics participate in the Bible NEW COVENANT for the NEW COVENANT is LIMITED to the Catholic Mass.

This is their claim STILL TODAY!!

The difference is that TODAY they agree to ADD "extrabiblical means" of salvation to be open to non-Catholics.

Something I doubt any non-Catholic would consider "valid".

In Christ,

Bob

Okay, I know everyone wants to use a document from 1302 and disregard present Catholic teaching. However, let me link you to a 1964 document of the Vatican:
http://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_...s/vat-ii_const_19641121_lumen-gentium_en.html
Now, the relevant text at Lumen Gentium 15:

"The Church recognizes that in many ways she is linked with those who, being baptized, are honored with the name of Christian, though they do not profess the faith in its entirety or do not preserve unity of communion with the successor of Peter. For there are many who honor Sacred Scripture, taking it as a norm of belief and a pattern of life, and who show a sincere zeal. They lovingly believe in God the Father Almighty and in Christ, the Son of God and Saviour. They are consecrated by baptism, in which they are united with Christ."

Now, they also believe in something called "baptism of desire," in which a person desiring water baptism is considered to have received it. It is mentioned in the Catechism of the Catholic Church 1259.
http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P3M.HTM
Between these two texts, as well as from reading present Catholic material, and listening to Catholic speakers, it shows that Catholicism no longer teaches that only Catholic Christians will be saved.

Yes, it is a reversal. Yes they will never admit it. Yes, it does prove that their leaders are not infallible.

Luke 3:14 "neither accuse anyone wrongly" (ASV). Folks here are `raking Catholics over the coals' for believing things that Catholics actually are taught to deny. Out of a grudge for things that happened centuries before any one of us was alive, false accusations are being thrown. As I said, let us put the past behind us.

 

[tragic_pizza]

The Catholc Church is like a chameleon. It changes whenevr it is convenient to. During the time of the Reformation it had the power of the Kings and Queens behind them. It was a state religion. So it could do whatever it wanted including some of the most gruesome murders possible to mankind. Read of what Bloody Mary did throughout England during her reign. And then during the reformationn, what was the attitudue toward the Reformers? What eventually happened to Luther? And what about Tyndale, Wycliffe? John Huss? These men were martyrs for their faith, all for what? Living Godly Christian lives.

Have the Baptists always done things you're proud of? Supporting Southern slavery, for example?

I'm not at all supportive of what happened to some of the Reformers; however, I recognize that we Reformed are not the only ones whom God has blessed to change and grow.

The goal of the Catholic Church has never changed. It wants to make everyone Catholic--to dominate the earth; to be the one world-wide church. It wants to bring every religion under its umbrella. It is against the law for it to carry on gruesome Inquistions and crusades as it did in the past. It is not "politically correct," though they would if they could. They go about it through other means now. They use different means: dialogue, assimilation, and even force through political means when they can get away with it. Their goal is still to become the one world religion. They never have deviated from that. There is no salvation outside of the RCC. They have never deviated from that. They have just couched that in more politically correct terms. They have become more ecumenical to reach their goals. In some cases they have become Charismatic to reach their goal.
They have used Billy Graham very effectively, as well as other ecumenical televangelists, such as David Mainse, who regularly features priests and bishops on his daily programs. The RCC is pulling the wool over the eyes of many believers. And yet their doctrnes remain just as heretical as they did in the days of Luther. Nothing has changed (doctrinally).
It is the evangelicals that are being suckered in by this pagan church that doesn't even preach a gospel message.

Wow, you must be breathless after that polemic.

The Catholic Church wants to make everyone Catholic. Are you saying this is wrong? Does not the Baptist church want to make everyone Baptist? Is it not the same for every Protestant denomination?

 

[tragic_pizza]

Tragic Pizza, this doctrine was that the RCC says that only Catholics go to Heaven and everyone else, even Presbyterians like you, go to the lake of fire as far as The Vatican is concerned was enunciated by Pope Boniface VIII and confirmed by many other popes as Eliyahu has taken the trouble to list for you--and the above quotation from Pope Pius IX is not the only one Eliyahu listed. Tragic Pizza, you cannot assert that that is not the position of the RCC unless you can deal with the statements and Bulls of the Popes and explain under Catholic law that your idea that they don't mean what they say is valid. We are reading what Angus Dei says but we don't accept that when the Pope says in Latin "all human beings" that he meant only the French, especially in light of the fact that other popes have agreed that only members of the RCC go to Heaven and everyone else goes to hell. When they say that there is no salvation outside of the walls of the RCC, they mean that you are lost in sin and bound for hell unless you become a Catholic and stay a Catholic. That is the RCC's theological judgment.

Darron addresses this.

 

[Agnus_Dei]

We are reading what Angus Dei says but we don't accept that when the Pope says in Latin "all human beings" that he meant only the French, especially in light of the fact that other popes have agreed that only members of the RCC go to Heaven and everyone else goes to hell.

The papal bull Unam Sanctam of 1302 by Pope Boniface VIII cannot be applied to modern Protestant Churches, whom didn’t exist in the 14th century and had nothing whatsoever to do with the Bull, without carefully considering the whole teaching of the Church on salvation and the Body of Christ. You misapply the Bull and in doing so shows your contempt for Church history, papal documents and the catholic theology in general.

Moreover did you CMG even verify the link that our resident Catholic expert Eliyahu provided concerning Pope Pius IX, Singulari Quadem, of 1854? Did you CMG even verify the authenticity of the quote?

Let me guess….NO, because the quote isn’t even correct per the original. Here’s the correct quote in its entirety.

For it must be held by faith that outside the Apostolic Roman Church, no
one can be saved; that this is the only ark of salvation; that he who shall
not have entered therein will perish in the flood; but, on the other hand,
it is necessary to hold for certain that they who labor in ignorance of
the true religion, if this ignorance is invincible, are not stained by any
guilt in this matter in the eyes of God. Now, in truth, who would arrogate
so much to himself as to mark the limits of such an ignorance, because of
the nature and variety of peoples, regions, innate dispositions, and of
so many other things? For, in truth, when released from these corporeal
chains "we shall see God as He is" [1 John 3:2], we shall understand
perfectly by how close and beautiful a bond divine mercy and justice are
united; but, as long as we are on earth, weighed down by this mortal mass
which blunts the soul, let us hold most firmly that, in accordance with
Catholic teaching, there is "one God, one faith, one baptism" [Eph. 4:5];
it is unlawful to proceed further in inquiry.

But just as the way of charity demands, let us pour forth continual
prayers that all nations everywhere may be converted to Christ; and let
us be devoted to the common salvation of men in proportion to our strength,
"for the hand of the Lord is not shortened" [Isa. 9:1] and the gifts of
heavenly grace will not be wanting those who sincerely wish and ask to be
refreshed by this light. Truths of this sort should be deeply fixed in
the minds of the faithful, lest they be corrupted by false doctrines,
whose object is to foster an indifference toward religion, which we see
spreading widely and growing strong for the destruction of souls.

If you notice CMG, the provided link by Eliyahu is of a anti-catholic fundy who more than likely didn’t verify his own resources and posted garbage. I’m very disappoint in you CMG, you’ve been adding to the false witness.

So again reading the correct quote and not some cut-up, pieced together, quote to push an agenda we see that Pope Pius IX makes it quite clear that it is possible for the invincibly ignorant non-Catholics to be saved, and when they are, they are nonetheless saved by the sacrifice of Christ, even if they are unaware of it. That's in-line with Catholic teaching.

 

[Agnus_Dei]

Roman Catholic has changed their stance from time to time so that they can be acceptable to the people. In the past when they have unlimited, uncontrolled power, they said " there is no salvation outside Roman Catholic". That's how they carried out the Inquisition by torturing and killing the people.
Now they can hardly push it forward and they need to be prepared for another Inquisition, the Great Tribulation, and they are now gearing up thru the Strategic Retreat.

Let's see the famous statement on this by Infallible Pope Pius 9 who is also famous for Papal Infallibility.


Pope Pius IX, Singulari Quadem, 1854

"Not without sorrow we have learned that another error, no less destructive, has taken possession of some parts of the Catholic world, and had taken up its abode in the souls of many Catholics who think that one should have good hope of eternal salvation of all those who have never lived in the true Church of Christ. Therefore they are wont to ask very often what will be the lot and condition after death of those who have not submitted in any way to the Catholic faith, and by bringing forward most vain reasons, they make a response favorable to their false opinion. For, it must be held by faith that outside the Apostolic Roman Church , no one can be saved; that this is the only ark of salvation; that he who shall not have entered therein will perish in the flood. truths of this sort should be deeply fixed in the minds of the faithful, lest they be corrupted by false doctrines, whose object is to foster an indifference toward religion, which we see spreading widely and growing strong for the destruction of souls."


http://www.geocities.com/orthopapism/eens_papal.html


You can find plenty of articles on this here:

http://search.yahoo.com/search?p=No...church&fr=yfp-t-429&toggle=1&cop=mss&ei=UTF-8

Eliyahu: the above quote from Pope Pius is a cut-up, pieced together quote and doesn’t represent Pope Pius’ statement correctly or in its entirety. I suggest you start verify your quotes and sources and also renounce the above post of yours as a blunder on your part of misrepresenting the Catholic faith.

 

[D28guy]

Tragic Pizza...

(That would be any pizza with mushrooms..yech!..on it, btw)

"The Catholic Church wants to make everyone Catholic. Are you saying this is wrong? Does not the Baptist church want to make everyone Baptist? Is it not the same for every Protestant denomination?"

No they dont. They want everyone to get born again and be christians.

If a baptist were to be sharing with a lost person the subject of his Baptist church will never come up. The gospel of Jesus Christ will. They will never tell them that they must come under the umbrella of "Holy Mother Church"...the Baptist Church of Nashville Tennessee...to be saved.

But Catholics might very well tell someone that they must come under the umbrella of the Catholic Church of Rome...to be saved.

For the Baptist, if that one he or she were witnessing to were to repent and recieve eternal life during the conversation, the brother or sister might invite them to their place of fellowship, because its a kind thing to do. But if they dont want to that would be fine, and they would just be advised to find a fellowship somewhere and get "plugged in" with other born again people.

I'm not a Baptist btw.

God bless,

Mike