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Unam Sanctam--only Catholics go to Heaven
- Thread starter church mouse guy
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tragic_pizza
New Member
Funny how some faith traditions allow themselves to grow and learn, isn't it?Ps104_33 said:
Maybe you should try it.
The following is an example of a quote from Pope Pius IX that’s been butchered to make it as though all whom are not RC are doomed.Ps104_33 said:
Pope Pius IX, Singulari Quadem, 1854
Not without sorrow we have learned that another error, no less destructive, has taken possession of some parts of the Catholic world, and had taken up its abode in the souls of many Catholics who think that one should have good hope of eternal salvation of all those who have never lived in the true Church of Christ. Therefore they are wont to ask very often what will be the lot and condition after death of those who have not submitted in any way to the Catholic faith, and by bringing forward most vain reasons, they make a response favorable to their false opinion. For, it must be held by faith that outside the Apostolic Roman Church , no one can be saved; that this is the only ark of salvation; that he who shall not have entered therein will perish in the flood. truths of this sort should be deeply fixed in the minds of the faithful, lest they be corrupted by false doctrines, whose object is to foster an indifference toward religion, which we see spreading widely and growing strong for the destruction of souls.
The following is the exact quote in its entirety:
For it must be held by faith that outside the Apostolic Roman Church, no
one can be saved; that this is the only ark of salvation; that he who shall
not have entered therein will perish in the flood; but, on the other hand,
it is necessary to hold for certain that they who labor in ignorance of
the true religion, if this ignorance is invincible, are not stained by any
guilt in this matter in the eyes of God. Now, in truth, who would arrogate
so much to himself as to mark the limits of such an ignorance, because of
the nature and variety of peoples, regions, innate dispositions, and of
so many other things? For, in truth, when released from these corporeal
chains "we shall see God as He is" [1 John 3:2], we shall understand
perfectly by how close and beautiful a bond divine mercy and justice are
united; but, as long as we are on earth, weighed down by this mortal mass
which blunts the soul, let us hold most firmly that, in accordance with
Catholic teaching, there is "one God, one faith, one baptism" [Eph. 4:5];
it is unlawful to proceed further in inquiry.
But just as the way of charity demands, let us pour forth continual
prayers that all nations everywhere may be converted to Christ; and let
us be devoted to the common salvation of men in proportion to our strength,
"for the hand of the Lord is not shortened" [Isa. 9:1] and the gifts of
heavenly grace will not be wanting those who sincerely wish and ask to be
refreshed by this light. Truths of this sort should be deeply fixed in
the minds of the faithful, lest they be corrupted by false doctrines,
whose object is to foster an indifference toward religion, which we see
spreading widely and growing strong for the destruction of souls.
As you compare the two quotes, the first is a cut and rearrange job by a fundamental website, where the quote was linked from. The bolded portion was conveniently left out to push a fundies agenda. Sadly, you’re led like blind sheep, who think your own little infallible popes are telling you the truth.
Darron Steele
New Member
church mouse guy said:
Darron Steele said:
That people claim there has been no reversal on the bull does not make it so. Do you think the Vatican is ever going to explicitly admit a mistake? No way.church mouse guy said:
People who have been duped by the Vatican will also never accept that the Vatican has reneged itself. That does not mean that the Vatican has never reneged itself.
However, the 1302 bull has been reversed by more recent rulings of the Vatican to the contrary of what the 1302 bull says.
For example, in an earlier post, I linked us to a 1964 document of the Vatican:
http://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_c...entium_en.html
Now, the relevant text at Lumen Gentium 15:
"The Church recognizes that in many ways she is linked with those who, being baptized, are honored with the name of Christian, though they do not profess the faith in its entirety or do not preserve unity of communion with the successor of Peter. For there are many who honor Sacred Scripture, taking it as a norm of belief and a pattern of life, and who show a sincere zeal. They lovingly believe in God the Father Almighty and in Christ, the Son of God and Saviour. They are consecrated by baptism, in which they are united with Christ."
Catholics also believe in something called "baptism of desire" where an unbaptized person is considered baptized if s/he would have desired to be.
The fact is that the Vatican has reneged, for now, on what it said in that 1302 bull, whether it admits it or not.
Darron Steele
New Member
Simple answer to your question: the bishop of the Catholic congregation at Rome not getting his "proper respect."Agnus_Dei said:
All the wiggling Catholic apologists do to try to convince themselves and everyone else that Rome has not reneged on anything has never once created a single `clarification' that `held water' with me.
If you want to fight with your allies alongside your opponents, well, I guess that is your problem. I am not Catholic, nor am I favorably inclined to be. If you want to be all alone as an assenting Catholic, with everything you say being viewed as biased, be my guest. You can try to argue with these people who falsely accuse Catholics of believing things they do not, and you can do so with one fewer sympathetic outsider.
There were no Protestant denominations in the 1300's. I know that. The first Protestants did not show up until the 1500's. Guess what? I am not Protestant either. I am a Christian only, with my fellow siblings in Catholic denominations, Protestant denominations, Orthodox denominations, and whatever else denominations and non-denominational congregations.
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In reality there is no such thing. IF she would have desired to be; then she would have been baptized; obviously.Darron Steele said:
IF they are speaking of people in pagan religions then theyare claiming to know the heart of individuals which only God can know. That is very presumptuos on their part. To claim to be omniscient is blasphemous. To claim to know the hearts of men is the same thing.
I asked the question because many Protestants, especially those who deceive others in regard to the Catholic faith, take this opening posts papal bull, along with other statements out of context, without first knowing the history or theology based around this bull, as well as other papal statements.Darron Steele said:
It wasn’t meant to argue with you, I wanted an answer so others can get a clue as to why this papal bull was pronounced. I’ve explained and re-explained the context of this bull, but as a former fundie myself, I know how hard headed they can be. It’s like teaching my 5 year-old to tie his shoes; you have to show him repeatedly how it’s done, until it finally sinks in.
I am not sure what you mean by this statement.Darron Steele said:
I would never consider the RCC as my ally.
They are not a Christian Church, never have been and never will be.
They hold to pagan beliefs, and their way of "salvation" is a way that will only send people to hell. I was there for 20 years and never heard the gospel once.
tragic_pizza
New Member
Wait, I thought you said that only God can know the hearts. You're contradicting yourself.DHK said:
Normally when someone reconciles with the Catholic Church, they attend classes that range in numerous subjects concerning the Catholic faith. The Church doesn’t want people who want to rush into become a member without first knowing what the Sacraments are, what Liturgy is and how both are used in worshipping God.DHK said:
As a former fundamentalist, when someone was saved at service, they had to wait to be baptized, b/c our preacher to make sure he or she didn’t believe that it was the baptism that saved. The waiting period was months.
So I see no difference between the RCC having an un-baptized seeker wait until he or she understands the sacrament of baptism and a Fundamental church having a recently been saved adult to wait until he or she understands baptism.
So what you’re saying that unless one makes that trip down the aisle and repeats a couple of sentences, then he or she isn’t saved?DHK said:
How does one know if what ones repeats is right and salvation took hold?
The difference, as has already been pointed out, is that the RCC believes that baptism is necessary for salvation, where the Baptist does not. The RCC believes in one of the oldest heresies known to the church--baptismal regeneration. That is why it uses the excuse of baptizing babies, though there be no example given in the Bible. However the Bible says to "Believe and be baptized." An infant, as we all know, does not have the capability of believing and understanding the gospel. Yet, the RCC in this superstitious belief actually believes (as the Hindus do) that this little sprinkling of water will wash away their sins. Jeremiah scoffed at the very idea:Agnus_Dei said:
Jeremiah 2:22 For though thou wash thee with nitre, and take thee much soap, yet thine iniquity is marked before me, saith the Lord GOD.
Nope! I never said that at all. No one has to come down the aisle at all. In fact we don't even have such an "altar call" in our church. Salvation is a personal matter between the person and God, wherein they must call upon the name of Christ, having first recognized that they are sinners in need of a Saviour. Almost always they do this in their own words. They don't need any help from me or any prescribed prayer. You have been badly misled.
The Lord knows them that are his. I don't presume to judge the heart of anyone. Again, there is no one in our church that "repeats the right words." They aren't Catholics that have "Hail Mary's" to memorize, which the Bible calls "the vain repetitions of the heathen." They call upon the name of the Lord. Prayer is personal. It is talking to God. It is not memorized or rote speech. I am sorry that you have such a lack of knowledge about prayer. Don't you ever do it? Have you ever prayed?
Every time I give this testimony I receive this exact same response. It is so predictable. I should have posted your response along with my previous post so you wouldn't have had to.Agnus_Dei said:
No, there was no gospel message. There was no plan of salvation. It was never given. And if you think it is given in the liturgy you are badly deluded. Besides that I was an altar boy for a number of years in the RCC, when the mass was said in Latin, and I still have great portions of it memorized in Latin.
The PCUSA is pro-choice on abortion
You are the one always trying to change the subject, Tragic. You want to talk about slavery and now theocracy. Your own church allows for the murder of the unborn but you yourself think that it is a woman's right to choose to murder her unborn child but then you want to throw stones at Baptists, who have expelled all slaveowners from their ranks, along with pimps, murderers, abortionists, and others of the same category of unrepentant sinners.
As for the idea that the RCC has fudged on the papal bull, the truth of the matter is that in the legal system of the RCC a papal bull stands supreme.
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tragic_pizza said:
You are the one always trying to change the subject, Tragic. You want to talk about slavery and now theocracy. Your own church allows for the murder of the unborn but you yourself think that it is a woman's right to choose to murder her unborn child but then you want to throw stones at Baptists, who have expelled all slaveowners from their ranks, along with pimps, murderers, abortionists, and others of the same category of unrepentant sinners.
As for the idea that the RCC has fudged on the papal bull, the truth of the matter is that in the legal system of the RCC a papal bull stands supreme.
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Darron Steele
New Member
Darron Steele said:
They do not claim to know who has had the "baptism of desire." They assume God would know. I was pointing out that they believe that an unbaptized Christian can be saved -- whether Catholic or not. I apologize for the misunderstanding.DHK said:
I agree with you that there is no such thing. I believe in a similar concept called as salvation by faith.