Unam Sanctam--only Catholics go to Heaven

[tragic_pizza]

You are the one always trying to change the subject, Tragic. You want to talk about slavery and now theocracy. Your own church allows for the murder of the unborn but you yourself think that it is a woman's right to choose to murder her unborn child but then you want to throw stones at Baptists, who have expelled all slaveowners from their ranks, along with pimps, murderers, abortionists, and others of the same category of unrepentant sinners.

Yet the very thing you quote as so abhorrent in the PCUSA actually insists that Scripture and Christian morals guide the person making the decision.

You really aren't making sense.

 

[Darron Steele]

If you want to fight with your allies alongside your opponents, well, I guess that is your problem.

I am not sure what you mean by this statement.
I would never consider the RCC as my ally.
They are not a Christian Church, never have been and never will be.
They hold to pagan beliefs, and their way of "salvation" is a way that will only send people to hell. I was there for 20 years and never heard the gospel once.

I was actually addressing someone in particular. Allow me to add the rest of the quoted post:

"I am not Catholic, nor am I favorably inclined to be. If you want to be all alone as an assenting Catholic, with everything you say being viewed as biased, be my guest. You can try to argue with these people who falsely accuse Catholics of believing things they do not, and you can do so with one fewer sympathetic outsider.

There were no Protestant denominations in the 1300's. I know that. The first Protestants did not show up until the 1500's. Guess what? I am not Protestant either. I am a Christian only, with my fellow siblings in Catholic denominations, Protestant denominations, Orthodox denominations, and whatever else denominations and non-denominational congregations."​

I had been supporting this poster who is in the process of joining a Catholic congregation. My main purpose on this thread is to help that poster oppose the misrepresentations being thrown at Catholic Christians. Hence, on this thread, I had been that individual poster's ally.

DHK: the Vatican is not my ally -- I would not be surprised if not a single clergyman at that level is a Christian. On the other hand, I guess I need to be clear about a distinction I make. Nothing created has the power to unmake a Christian per Romans 8:39, and that includes Catholic buildings. Therefore, Christians who hold Catholic distinctives still serve the same Lord Jesus Christ that I do. You may not agree with me on that, but I would rather not argue about it.

 

[Eliyahu]

I think that even the Baptists cannot be free from the condemnation on the slavery before Civil War or even on the abortion today.
However, the Roman Catholics were just killing tens of millions of Indians in South America, and they also enjoyed the salvery system and hated the black Americans very much as we read the article about Chiniquy and Lincoln. Some nominal Baptists may have not been born again at all, and such could have defamed the Baptists very much. Even today there are many Baptists who are virtually Catholic minded, never been born again.
These groups did not represent the total or average born again Baptists.
Thinks about the atrocities by Inquisition, Crusade, Holocaust by the devout Catholics, Adolf Hitler, Himler, Goebels, Mussolini, Franco, etc., the recent Rwandan genocide caused by Belgium Catholic priests.
Today, there are millions of nominal protestants who do not share the same belief with the born again Christian believers, but just catholic minded, in support of Roman catholic, and I notice George Bush appoint Roman Catholics to the Supreme Court judges, though he himself claims he was born again. Such millions or billions of Catholic or so-called Orthodox people do not know what is the real joy of becoming the children of God.

You can find how much Catholic fought against Abraham Lincoln, but despised African Americans here:

http://www.geocities.com/chiniquy/lincoln_writings.html

http://www.weirdload.com/lincoln.html

http://www.pacinst.com/terrorists/chapter4/lincoln.html

http://members.aol.com/KHoeck777/Abe.htm

 

[Eliyahu]

There were no Protestant denominations in the 1300's. I know that. The first Protestants did not show up until the 1500's. Guess what? I am not Protestant either. I am a Christian only, with my fellow siblings in Catholic denominations, Protestant denominations, Orthodox denominations, and whatever else denominations and non-denominational congregations.".
​

YOur post include the article which has very poor understanding about the history. Many people misunderstand that Protestants diverged from Roman Catholic.

However the truth is that there were many, many Baptists and Brethren Believers before the Reformation era.

Roman Catholic diverged from the True Christians as we read 1 John 2:19. the Bible proves it! and they formed a big, human organization, and the people of this world did not accept the Christian truth, but accepted such perverted, apostate, Idol worshipping, Idol allowing, goddess worshipping religion very easily onto which they attached the word " "Holy" or "Catholic" or "Orthodox" etc to beautify and decorate the false religion.

The true history is recovered quite a lot by the sincere Christians like E H Broadbent as we read Pilgrim Church.

Here are some excerpts:



http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/thailand/pc-b-041.htm


http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/thailand/PC-B-042.HTM

http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/thailand/PC-B-044.HTM

http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/thailand/PC-B-088.HTM
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/thailand/pc-b-085.htm

​

 

[Darron Steele]

Eliyahu:

The definition of "Protestant" means `someone who protests.' Protestants protested the way the Catholic leadership ran those congregations, and did so during the Protestant Reformation. That is the standard definition.

That 1 John 2:19 has any ties to Roman Catholicism is an astounding claim. 1 John 2:19-23 describes those who left as "antichrist" and describes such as denying the Incarnation of Jesus Christ. This is not a tenet of Roman Catholicism. It was a tenet of Gnostic non-Christian groups.

Also, 1 John was written before Rome even had a monarchial bishop. The New Testament describes congregations being governed by a plurality of elders. A late first century letter by the congregation at Rome describes itself as being authored by the whole congregation. In c. 110, Ignatius wrote to seven congregations and mentioned the monarchial bishops of the eastern six -- no mention was made of a monarchial bishop in the western congregation at Rome.* This is another reason that the passage cannot describe Roman Catholicism.
*Jefford, et al, Reading the Apostolic Fathers, pages 62-3.

Baptists are tied to Anabaptist groups, as are Mennonites and a number of other denominations. Anabaptists were already plentiful at the opening of the Protestant Reformation. Their origins are unknown. They cannot be deemed Protestants. Their descendant groups cannot be considered Protestant. Hence, my phrase "whatever else denominations."

 

[Eliyahu]

Eliyahu:

The definition of "Protestant" means `someone who protests.' Protestants protested the way the Catholic leadership ran those congregations, and did so during the Protestant Reformation. That is the standard definition.

That 1 John 2:19 has any ties to Roman Catholicism is an astounding claim. 1 John 2:19-23 describes those who left as "antichrist" and describes such as denying the Incarnation of Jesus Christ. This is not a tenet of Roman Catholicism. It was a tenet of Gnostic non-Christian groups.

Also, 1 John was written before Rome even had a monarchial bishop. The New Testament describes congregations being governed by a plurality of elders. A late first century letter by the congregation at Rome describes itself as being authored by the whole congregation. In c. 110, Ignatius wrote to seven congregations and mentioned the monarchial bishops of the eastern six -- no mention was made of a monarchial bishop in the western congregation at Rome.* This is another reason that the passage cannot describe Roman Catholicism.
*Jefford, et al, Reading the Apostolic Fathers, pages 62-3.

Baptists are tied to Anabaptist groups, as are Mennonites and a number of other denominations. Anabaptists were already plentiful at the opening of the Protestant Reformation. Their origins are unknown. They cannot be deemed Protestants. Their descendant groups cannot be considered Protestant. Hence, my phrase "whatever else denominations."

I would not say that 1 John 2:19 is entirely referring to RCC. However, there were such apostates even during the Apostlic era. Such apostates were quite increasing as time goes on and as the Christians are increasing. Such apostates were not stand-still but form a certain groups and increased rapidly, faster than the truly born again believers. They became the Roman Catholic as we notice how Cyrill did to call Mary the Mother of God, while Nestorius and his fellows were diminishing.

You'd better read or grasp the article by EH Broadbent which I posted. It is written from the view of born-again believers, not by RCC views.

Baptists have very very long roots and which go eventually back to Apostles.

Throughout history there have been apostates all the time.

Read Gal 1:5 ( another gospel), there were false brethren ( Gal 2:4), there might have been some people who preached another Jesus ( 1 Cor 11:4), Paul warned such apostate even unto the elders of Ephesian church, " even among you there shall men arise, speaking perverted things, to draw away disciples after them" ( Acts 20:30).

There are so many pagan customs performed by RCC. If they are not from Holy Spirit, where are they from?
If you read Pilgrim Church, you can find there have been so many groups of non-Catholic believers, who were persecuted by RCC as heretics, let alone the Eastern Church and East Asian Church in China, Mongolia, Korea, Japan, and Central Asia. When Crusade killed thousands of Jews and De Vausis, Waldenses, they opposed to RCC. The word "protestant" was attached by Catholics, actually they just called themselves as Christians. So the distinction by naming " Protestant" doesn't mean very much. Non-Catholic Christians during Dark Age were persecuted by Catholic and they protested Catholic paganism, which has been and will be still remembered by their God until the great day of Judgment.

 

[D28guy]

Eliyahu,

"Mike, How is your guitar D 28 these days?"

Actually I no longer have it. My primary guitar now is a Blueridge BR160. It has more volume than the D28 plus a tone that I prefer. It wasnt that I was dissatisfied with the D28, but this guitar is better for what I play, mostly bluegrass.

I still have a Martin. A D15S 12 fret slothead. Its sort of a re-issue of the old 1930's style guitars. Its a good 'un!

(I just didnt feel like changing my user name, btw.) :thumbs:

God bless,

Mike

 

[church mouse guy]

Exactly! The PCUSA does not oppose abortion!

Yet the very thing you quote as so abhorrent in the PCUSA actually insists that Scripture and Christian morals guide the person making the decision.

You really aren't making sense.

Exactly! The PCUSA, which you belong to according to your profile, Tragic, says that it is a woman's choice, which is classic pro-abortion murder of the unborn child talk for go ahead and murder the baby if you don't think it is immoral. Suppose that we say that the PCUSA actually insists that Scripture and Christian morals guide the person making the decision in owning slaves. That would mean that salvery should be legal and up to the individual Presbyterian; here the PCUSA says that murder of the unborn child should be legal and up to the individual Presbyterian. Your church bears the responsibility for the murder of millions of Americans. Why don't you clean your own churches up, Tragic? You should tell every Presbyterian that you see that Thou shalt not murder. Afterall, you Presbyterians are the richest church per capita in the USA. They would probably throw you out of your country club for rocking the boat if you said that abortion is murder, Tragic.

 

[Eliyahu]

Exactly! The PCUSA, which you belong to according to your profile, Tragic, says that it is a woman's choice, which is classic pro-abortion murder of the unborn child talk for go ahead and murder the baby if you don't think it is immoral. Suppose that we say that the PCUSA actually insists that Scripture and Christian morals guide the person making the decision in owning slaves. That would mean that salvery should be legal and up to the individual Presbyterian; here the PCUSA says that murder of the unborn child should be legal and up to the individual Presbyterian. Your church bears the responsibility for the murder of millions of Americans. Why don't you clean your own churches up, Tragic? You should tell every Presbyterian that you see that Thou shalt not murder. Afterall, you Presbyterians are the richest church per capita in the USA. They would probably throw you out of your country club for rocking the boat if you said that abortion is murder, Tragic.

You are very much correct on the very much important issue.
Killing the unborn children is a cruel and wicked murder, no doubt!
Its origin is in the bible.

Le 20:2 - Show Context Again, thou shalt say to the children of Israel, Whosoever he be of the children of Israel, or of the strangers that sojourn in Israel, that giveth any of his seed unto Molech; he shall surely be put to death: the people of the land shall stone him with stones. ( www.crosswalk.com) 2Ki 23:10 - Show Context And he defiled Topheth, which is in the valley of the children of Hinnom, that no man might make his son or his daughter to pass through the fire to Molech.
( www.crosswalk.com)
Killing the children for the sake of their own happiness means the sacrifice to Molech and the abortion is the modern form of this sacrifice to Molech.

 

[Eliyahu]

Eliyahu,



Actually I no longer have it. My primary guitar now is a Blueridge BR160. It has more volume than the D28 plus a tone that I prefer. It wasnt that I was dissatisfied with the D28, but this guitar is better for what I play, mostly bluegrass.

I still have a Martin. A D15S 12 fret slothead. Its sort of a re-issue of the old 1930's style guitars. Its a good 'un!

(I just didnt feel like changing my user name, btw.) :thumbs:

God bless,

Mike

Hope that will be used as a tool for praising the Lord as before.

 

[D28guy]

"Hope that will be used as a tool for praising the Lord as before."

Absolutly. The only kind of bluegrass music I play is gospel. :godisgood:

Mike

 

[tragic_pizza]

Exactly! The PCUSA, which you belong to according to your profile, Tragic, says that it is a woman's choice, which is classic pro-abortion murder of the unborn child talk for go ahead and murder the baby if you don't think it is immoral. Suppose that we say that the PCUSA actually insists that Scripture and Christian morals guide the person making the decision in owning slaves. That would mean that salvery should be legal and up to the individual Presbyterian; here the PCUSA says that murder of the unborn child should be legal and up to the individual Presbyterian.

An utterly ridiculous comparison.

One can read, even casually, the New Testament and see that slavery, though a reality that had to be lived with at the time, was not smiled upon at all. The Book of Philemon alone demonstrates this.

Honestly, if you're going to talk with me (rather than pontificating to me), at least maintain a grasp of reality.

Your church bears the responsibility for the murder of millions of Americans. Why don't you clean your own churches up, Tragic? You should tell every Presbyterian that you see that Thou shalt not murder. Afterall, you Presbyterians are the richest church per capita in the USA. They would probably throw you out of your country club for rocking the boat if you said that abortion is murder, Tragic.

There are plentiful Presbyterians who regard abortion as murder. You should mosey on over to the website of the Presbyterian Lay Committee for an exmple.


One of the beauties of the PC(USA) is that we are not all rich (I am lower middle class at best), white, conservative, liberal, patriarchal, etc. We hold fast to belief in Jesus Christ, we accept the baptism of any Christian denomination... and that faith and baptism are the only criteria
for membership.

We don't require members to walk in lockstep, prohibited from thinking, questioning, doubting. That's the purview of your little group, my friend. It is a theological reality that God alone is Lord of the conscience, not you, or your church, or the government.

 

[annsni]

TP - My husband was an elder on the session of our former church (a PC(USA) church) - and we finally left that church. While that one still held strong to Biblical values, the PC(USA) was going in a direction that quite frankly scared the daylights out of us. Our church struggled with what was happening and fought so much (the re-imagining conference, the whole sexuality issue, etc.). While the PLC is a wonderful organization and doing a Godly work, they are fighting against the tide and are finding more and more issues with the PC(USA) as a whole. It's very sad, IMO. We left that church and are now at a Baptist church where God is able to move without the dragging of the session or the Presbytery. Our old church is dying and it breaks our hearts. I keep praying that they will pul out of the Presbytery but they will lose the building they've paid for and will need to find another place to worship.

 

[tragic_pizza]

I can only speak about what I know, ann.

Congrats on having both hands back.