Under Grace or Under Law Part 4

[D28guy]

Bob Ryan,

"But 1Cor 3 is the only one that speaks of STILL being saved in says NOTHING about evil deeds. It is just dealing with faithful devoted evangelists whose teaching may be inferior in one case to another's.

Very different form "evil deeds" getting the reward of the lake of fire."

Why in the world are you differentiating between evil "deeds" and "evil" bad teaching from evangelists???

Evil is evil, Bob. it doesnt matter what KIND of evil it is. And we know its not just wrong teaching from evagelisits. The passage...earlier...mentions carnality, envy, strife, and divisions. And the passage tells us that those christians with these things "on their record" in that day are not lost, but still saved, losing only rewards.

Of course the matter of sinning christians still being saved is clearly taught elsewhere, over and over again, in the scriptures.

God bless,

Mike

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

D28guy: Of course the matter of sinning christians still being saved is clearly taught elsewhere, over and over again, in the scriptures.

HP: Would you mind showing us your favorite proof text? Thanks.

 

[D28guy]

HP,

Here are a few good ones...

Jn.10:28...

"I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish, no one shall snatch them out of my hand."

Rom.6:23...

"For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Jn.3:18...

"He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Jn.5:24...

"He that hears my word, and believes on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life."

Rom.5:20-21...

"But where sin increased grace abounded all the more."

Rom.4:8...

"Blessed is the man to whom the Lord does not impute sin."

1Cor. 3:16...

"do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you."

1 Pt. 1:3-5...

"Who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled and that does not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time."

Jude 24...

"Now to him who is able to keep you from stumbling and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy."

God bless,

Mike

 

[Claudia_T]

HP,

Here are a few good ones...

Jn.10:28...

"I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish, no one shall snatch them out of my hand."

Rom.6:23...

"For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Jn.3:18...

"He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Jn.5:24...

"He that hears my word, and believes on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life."

Rom.5:20-21...

"But where sin increased grace abounded all the more."

Rom.4:8...

"Blessed is the man to whom the Lord does not impute sin."

1Cor. 3:16...

"do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you."

1 Pt. 1:3-5...

"Who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled and that does not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time."

Jude 24...

"Now to him who is able to keep you from stumbling and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy."

God bless,

Mike

Mike,

the problem as I see it is that just as truly as it says one thing it says the other, and you cannot ignore either:

Jn.5:24...
"He that hears my word, and believes on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life."

1Jn:3:15...
"Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him."


and so if someone tells you that you need a dollar and a pass to get into a movie... would you just keep telling everyone Hey it says you need a pass! while it may be true you need a pass, it is equally true you need a dollar.

 

[D28guy]

Claudia,

"Mike,

the problem as I see it is that just as truly as it says one thing it says the other, and you cannot ignore either:

Jn.5:24...
"He that hears my word, and believes on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life."

1Jn:3:15...
"Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.""

Here is the passage in 1 John you quoted, with a bit more of it...

"3:13
Do not marvel, my brethren, if the world hates you.
3:14
We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love the brethren. He who does not love his brother abides in death.
3:15
Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him."

He is making a contrast, to show the importance that we in the body of Christ love each other.

1st he makes clear their complete eternal secuity (what I bolded), and then he is saying to them that they are behaving just like the lost if they do not have genuine love for one another.

Grace and peace,

Mike

 

[His Blood Spoke My Name]

John 15:1-3 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman. Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit. Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.

'Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away;...' According to this phrase, one can be in Christ, and yet, still unsaved. Sitll not producing fruit. That one who has made a profession of faith, who is not producing fruit is taken away.

Jesus was speaking to His Apostles in this Chapter, that is evident. We also know that one of the Apostles, Judas Iscariot, was the son of perdition (literally, the son of destruction). And yet, He went on to say,'Now ye are clean through the Word which I have spoken unto you.'

Yet, in a previous chapter Jesus made this statement:

...and ye are clean, but not all. John 13:10b

The Word of God tells us 'If ye love me, keep my commandments'. Being given the gift of eternal life is predicated on more than lip-service... there must be heart service as well. One cannot say one knows God without having a love for God and for mankind.

 

[Shiloh]

According to this phrase, one can be in Christ, and yet, still unsaved. Sitll not producing fruit. By the Lancaster County Eagle

One can not be "in Christ" and still be unsaved. I believe in this Scripture there are, 1. The fruit bearing "believer" branches that abide in Christ. 2. There are non fruit bearing "believer" branches that abide in Christ. 3 There are "unbeliever" branches who are not true branches who have never abided "in" Christ. True believers are "IN Christ" and are CLEAN THROUGH HIS WORD. They are symbolically represented as the true branches of that TRUE VINE tree.

 

[His Blood Spoke My Name]

So, where are the unfruitful branches taken away to?

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

D28guy: He who does not love his brother abides in death.

HP: Now in the passage in question, does this go for professing believers as well? Does this death signify eternal separation from God, or just physical death a tad bit premature? Do those abiding in death still have their hope of eternal life in tact?

 

[Shiloh]

Let me try to answer your question, Pequea.
1. There are "believing" Fruit Bearing branches.
2. There are "believing" non fruit bearing branches. These He taketh away. I believe this is referenced to the "sin unto death."
1Jo 5:16 If any man see his brother sin a sin [which is] not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.
3. There are others, notice, "AS" a branch, Joh 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast [them] into the fire, and they are burned.I believe this is a direct application to Judas wwho was never clean nor in Christ. However you have to be careful about the fire as no where in God's Word do we ever find men casting people in hell.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

D28guy: Of course the matter of sinning christians still being saved is clearly taught elsewhere, over and over again, in the scriptures.

HP: Thanks for the list of Scriptures. I am having a hard time finding even one of the ones you listed state that sinning Christians are saved. Why don’t you pick out a single verse that you believe states such, and post it along with any explanation you feel is appropriate. Thanks.

 

[Brother Bob]

If you know a tree by its fruit then how can an unsaved person "abide in Christ"?

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

BB: If you know a tree by its fruit then how can an unsaved person "abide in Christ"?

HP: In this world we have hope of eternal life, and that hope is held by faith. I can see no other possibility but to allow for some element of uncertainty if faith is to be maintained and realized. Sure we know, but our knowledge is by faith allowing for the possibility at least of deception.

God on the other hand has absolute knowledge of all things. We again can only see things God sees by faith, not absolute knowledge. We do not have God's knowledge.

When a professing believer sins, there is no possibility but for him to feel condemnation and a need to repent and turn back to God IF he truely loves God. It is a false notion to believe that there is simply no condemnation possible to the believer. Only as we are walking not after the flesh but after the Spirit are we free from condemnation.

If we sin as believers, we have the rest of our life or until God withdraws His Spirit to repent and turn. If we refuse to repent, how can one say He loves God?

Obedience, on the other hand, is a natural result of love towards God. “He that sayeth he loveth me, and keepeth not my commandments, is a liar and the truth is not in him.“ We are saved by faith. How can we have faith in God while in possession of an evil conscience, without not being guilty of presumptuous sin, i.e., presuming upon the grace of God that He will cover for that which we either did with a high hand and or refuse to repent of?

I say that I am a heavenly pilgrim. What proof of that do I have if in fact I am heading in the wrong direction, unrepentant and self-willed. Does not my faith demand that I examine my walk, my life, my attitudes, my actions, to see if in fact I am ‘of the faith,’ and make amends and repent where needed?

Should we not act in line with James’s admonition to show our faith by our works lest we be vainly trying to exercise dead faith? Is not this a life time obligation, without which we are simply asking to be deceived as to our standing before God at the last trump?

 

[Shiloh]

HP, "If" we lose our Salvation when we sin, then why are these verses in my Bible? Heb 12:6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
Heb 12:7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
Heb 12:8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Shiloh: "If" we lose our Salvation when we sin, then why are these verses in my Bible?

HP: Scriptures concerning chastening are to remind us to examine ourselves, and to help secure repentance and obedience in our lives. I personally do not see how this establishes or supports the idea of OSAS.

 

[Shiloh]

I didn't think you did.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Shiloh: I didn't think you did.

HP: Let’s reason together. Why do you?

 

[DHK]

HP: In this world we have hope of eternal life, and that hope is held by faith. I can see no other possibility but to allow for some element of uncertainty if faith is to be maintained and realized. Sure we know, but our knowledge is by faith allowing for the possibility at least of deception.

Was that true on Paul's part--uncertainty, deception?

Acts 23:6 Men and brethren, I am a Pharisee, the son of a Pharisee: of the hope and resurrection of the dead I am called in question.

There was absolutely no question of the resurrection in Paul's mind. It was an absolute certainty. Faith is confidence. He was absolutely confident of the fact of the resurrection.

2 Corinthians 1:7 And our hope of you is stedfast, knowing, that as ye are partakers of the sufferings, so shall ye be also of the consolation.

Ephesians 1:18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,
--No uncertainty there.

Colossians 1:27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:
--Is Christ himself uncertain?

1 Timothy 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the commandment of God our Saviour, and Lord Jesus Christ, which is our hope;

Titus 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

Thus in conclusion

Titus 3:7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

--The hope of eternal life is not an uncertainty, something to taken by some kind of nebulous faith, but rather a certain event that we can for absoultely sure, with the absolute confidence that God has given us in His Word.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

DHK: --The hope of eternal life is not an uncertainty, something to taken by some kind of nebulous faith, but rather a certain event that we can for absoultely sure, with the absolute confidence that God has given us in His Word.

HP: What is faith? Can one have faith and absolute knowledge at the same time?

 

[BobRyan]

HP, "If" we lose our Salvation when we sin, then why are these verses in my Bible? Heb 12:6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
Heb 12:7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
Heb 12:8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

The Bible position of "forgiveness revoked" seen in Matt 18 is not that with each sin we lose salvation - but we see clearly in Matt 18 and John 15 (regarding those who are cast out of the vine of Christ) and Romans 11 (regarding those who fall as the Chosen People of God fell) that they reach a point where they have rejected God's leading and they fully choose rebellion "again".

In Christ,

Bob