Under Grace or Under Law Part 4

[BobRyan]

Bob Ryan,



Why in the world are you differentiating between evil "deeds" and "evil" bad teaching from evangelists???

In 1Cor 3 the case is never made for "evil" or "bad" doctrine. Rather the case is made for inferior - weaker - doctrine.

Imagine if you will Apollos and Paul in sequence coming to the same town and evangelizing. Some argue that Paul's doctrinal arguments are strongest - best etc others argue that Apollos has the best positions, the best perspectives the BEST teachings.

Paul points out that this does not cause the loss of salvation EVEN if someone like you or I were to come through town evangelizing and the listener were to say that the Apostle Paul "is a much better evangelist" -- it does not mean we have "done evil".

The notion that not being equal to Paul in evangelistic presentations - should be equated to "evil deeds" -- open rebellion etc -- is never mentioned in 1Cor 3.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

According to this phrase, one can be in Christ, and yet, still unsaved. Sitll not producing fruit. By the Lancaster County Eagle

One can not be "in Christ" and still be unsaved. I believe in this Scripture there are, 1. The fruit bearing "believer" branches that abide in Christ. 2. There are non fruit bearing "believer" branches that abide in Christ. 3 There are "unbeliever" branches who are not true branches who have never abided "in" Christ. True believers are "IN Christ" and are CLEAN THROUGH HIS WORD. They are symbolically represented as the true branches of that TRUE VINE tree.

Hence the problem OSAS has with John 15 and those who are being cast out - REMOVED from the Vine of Christ

 

[Brother Bob]

HP: What is faith? Can one have faith and absolute knowledge at the same time?

Excellent question.

His Spirit beareth witness with our spirit that we are the children of God. The best scripture on knowledge that I know of.

 

[DHK]

HP: What is faith? Can one have faith and absolute knowledge at the same time?

Faith is confidence. It is not some nebulous feeling or undefinable intangible abstract. It is confidence in the word of another. Biblical faith is confidence in the Word of God. We exercise faith every day. If the school (administration) tells me that they will be letting my children out at 3:30 pm I have faith in their word (confidence) that my child will be free from classes at 3:30. If I use the city transit system and ask the bus driver if this bus goes downtown, and he answers yes, I have faith (confidence) that he is telling the truth and I will not end up at the airport. I have faith (confidence) in the words of Ford (the company and their manual) that when I put my key into the ignition and turn it that my car will start. 99% of the time it does. When it doesn't, it doesn't start because of a lack of my faith, but rather because the car was made by human hands and humans are not infallible. They make mistakes, and the things that they make are not perfect.

However I can put my faith in a perfect God, who in His perfect Word never makes mistakes. I can have full assurance, full confidence that whatever he has promised He will do.

Numbers 23:19 God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?

Romans 4:20-21 He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God; And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.

Abraham was a man of faith. He was confident. He was fully persuaded that whatever God had promised God was going to do. He left no room in his life for uncertainties.

 

[D28guy]

Heavenly Pilgrim,

I quoted this passage...

"3:13
Do not marvel, my brethren, if the world hates you.
3:14
We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love the brethren. He who does not love his brother abides in death.
3:15
Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him."

And I commented...

"He is making a contrast, to show the importance that we in the body of Christ love each other.

1st he makes clear their complete eternal secuity (what I bolded), and then he is saying to them that they are behaving just like the lost if they do not have genuine love for one another.

Grace and peace,

Mike"

And you now ask,

Now in the passage in question, does this go for professing believers as well? Does this death signify eternal separation from God, or just physical death a tad bit premature?

When it says that we have passed from death unto life, it is obviously not speaking of premature phyiscal death. It refers to our new birth, and the tranformation that takes place. We once were lost, now we are saved. We once were dead, now we have life. We once were hell bound, now we are heaven bound. We once were Satans posession, now we are Saints of the living God.

And one of the immediate changes that takes place is that we want to be with other born again people, and we love them as brothers and sisters. That is a fruit of the Holy Spirit.

Lost people on the other hand do not love the things of God, His teachings, His ways or His priorities. They want no part of His church or His way of living or His born again people. Sometimes they hate and persecute His people. People who hate christians are not born again. So if born again people fall into bickering and contentiousness and bitterness, etc, they are taking on characteristics that are normal for the lost, but completly out of place for the saved.

All of the people he is adressing are born again believers, so it goes without saying that they are still saved. There is no such thing and anyone spending their life bouncing back and forth betwen lost and saved. Saved today, lost tomorrow, saved today, lost tormorrow, etc. We are eternally lost until we come to Christ, and then we are eternally saved.

Do those abiding in death still have their hope of eternal life in tact?"

Thos abiding in death are are unregenerate. The lost are not saved.. But the hope of being born again is still there. As long as their is the smallest degree of conviction there is still the opportunity to be born of the Spirit, if they will embrace Christ through faith alone.

God bless,

Mike

 

[EdSutton]

HP: What is faith? Can one have faith and absolute knowledge at the same time?

1 Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. (Heb. 11:1 - ESV)

Yes to the first half, and as to what is faith, if not the "the having faith part", necessarily, anyway.

5 that in every way you were enriched in him in all speech and all knowledge-- (I Cor. 1:5 - ESV)

14 I myself am satisfied about you, my brothers, that you yourselves are full of goodness, filled with all knowledge and able to instruct one another. (Rom. 15:14 - ESV)

13 until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood,[a] to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ, (Eph. 4:13 - ESV)

13 till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ; (Eph. 4:13 - NKJV)

As to the second part, as to Biblical truth, while it appears to be offered as theoretically possible when one is "filled with the Spirit", no one is coninually in this state, else there would be no command to "keep on being filled with the Spirit", were 'filled' an automatic state. So the answer to the second part is highly unlikely, according to the sum total of the teachings of Scripture.



Ed

 

[EdSutton]

My last post should have read "...continually in this state...', not "...coninually...".
Unfortunately Language Cop was still asleep, and did not proof-read it.

Ed

 

[Claudia_T]

Romans 4:20-21 He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God; And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.

Abraham was a man of faith. He was confident. He was fully persuaded that whatever God had promised God was going to do. He left no room in his life for uncertainties.

Abraham also OBEYED God, he cared about the conditions set down by God, otherwise he could not claim anything, and his "faith" wouldve been dead and useless.

James 2:
14: What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
15: If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
16: And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
17: Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
18: Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19: Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20: But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21: Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22: Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?


"Now the Lord had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee: and I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing: and I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed." Genesis 12:1-3. If ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise." Galatians 3:19.

Why did God make His promise to the seed of Abraham? "Because that Abraham obeyed My voice, and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes and My laws." Gen. 26:5.

What will the children of Abraham do? "Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham." John 8:39.

When the Jews claimed to the "The Children of Abraham" Jesus said:

John 8:
31: Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;
32: And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
33: They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?
34: Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
35: And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.
36: If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.
37: I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you.
38: I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father.
39: They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.
40: But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.
41: Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.
42: Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.
43: Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.
44: Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

Jesus informed the Jews that IT DID NOT MATTER WHAT THEIR LINEAGE WAS... as long as they were transgressing God's Law ... living in SIN... claiming to love God yet planning to sin and murder His Son, Jesus... they weren't any more the "children of Abraham" than were the heathen down the street! The Jews who rejected Christ, and ANYBODY WHO CLAIMS TO BE A CHRISTIAN TODAY that doesnt keep God's commandments, are NOT the children of Abraham! NOT AT ALL! They are NOT THE CHOSEN... they are NOT THE ELECT! They are lost sinners, just like anybody else who have refused to do what God clearly told them to do!

1Jn:3:8: He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

1Jn:3:10: In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

Who are the children of Abraham? "And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise." Gal. 3:29.

1Cor:7:19: "Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God." -In other words, to God, circumcision means nothing and uncircumcision means nothing, but what MATTERS is that you keep the commandments of God!

Claudia

 

[DHK]

Abraham also OBEYED God, he cared about the conditions set down by God, otherwise he could not claim anything, and his "faith" wouldve been dead and useless.
Claudia

Romans 4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

DHK: Faith is confidence.

HP: Absolutely, but faith cannot exist in the absence of all uncertainties.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

DHK: Romans 4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

HP: Do you think that there is a chance that the word ‘justification’ could be used in more than one sense? In other words, could it be possible that in a sense we are justified by our works, and in another sense we are not justified by works? Could the word justification be used in one sense to indicate the grounds for our salvation, yet used in another sense as a judgment of God upon our intents and subsequent actions? Could the possibility exist that there are even three senses in which justification can be used? I have been justified, I am being justified, and I will yet be justified at the final judgment of God.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Claudia: Abraham also OBEYED God.........,

HP: An excellent post Claudia. Very well laid out.

 

[DHK]

HP: Do you think that there is a chance that the word ‘justification’ could be used in more than one sense? In other words, could it be possible that in a sense we are justified by our works, and in another sense we are not justified by works? Could the word justification be used in one sense to indicate the grounds for our salvation, yet used in another sense as a judgment of God upon our intents and subsequent actions? Could the possibility exist that there are even three senses in which justification can be used? I have been justified, I am being justified, and I will yet be justified at the final judgment of God.

I believe what you are speaking of is sanctification, not justification.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

DHK: I believe what you are speaking of is sanctification, not justification.

HP: We all know that in a sense man is not justified by works. Nothing man can do in any way can be seen in the sense of ‘that for the sake of’ concerning salvation. Just the same, James tells us that indeed man is NOT justified by faith alone but by works as well. Jas 2:21 “Was not Abraham our father justified by works,”

Try harmonizing the two senses. I believe the works spoken of in James should be thought of in the sense of ‘not without which’ just the same as all conditions set forth by God for man to comply with.

Sanctification is not by works either, but neither will it be accomplished without the intents of man being chosen in accordance to God’s commandments. You can no more grow into sanctification that you can grow into salvation. At some point you must invoke faith and believe God to do the work.

 

[DHK]

Sanctification is an actual process that takes place in the believer after the person is initially sanctified or set apart at salvation.
However as it says in Romans 5:1

Romans 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

We are justified by faith. It is not a process but a one time act.
What James is speaking of is the outcome of our justification or salvation. If we are truly justified then it will be followed by works

He said:
James 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
--Works are a result of justification.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

DHK: Sanctification is an actual process that takes place in the believer after the person is initially sanctified or set apart at salvation.

HP: It would be proper to say that we still have a few disagreements between us.

 

[BobRyan]

Sanctification is an actual process that takes place in the believer after the person is initially sanctified or set apart at salvation.
However as it says in Romans 5:1

Romans 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

We are justified by faith. It is not a process but a one time act.
What James is speaking of is the outcome of our justification or salvation. If we are truly justified then it will be followed by works

He said:
James 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
--Works are a result of justification.

Yes and no.

James does not say "the outcome of being justified by faith APART FROM WORKS is that Justification is FOLLOWED by WORKS"...

Though it would have been simpler if he HAD said such a thing.

James said "you seen then that a man is JUSTIFIED BY WORKS AND NOT by faith ALONE".

In that clear statement - there is no ability to spin or turn it to "You seen then that a man IS JUSTIFIED BY FAITH ALONE and after that you will just so happen to see some good works".

Such a bending of the text is not even possible.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Now this is actually pretty interesting because I agree with DHK's belief that we ARE justified by faith alone - and that good works do follow as a RESULT.

I also agree that sanctification is a process that begins with Justification by faith alone - at the point of the new birth - the conversion of the soul - the new creation.

But in my model you can not simply twist the text that does not please your doctrine to make it fit.

In that point we differ -hence all of our other differences.

In Christ,

Bob