Under Grace or Under Law?...Round 3

[Brother Bob]

There are many sins if they go without repentance are unto death. Especially the Ten Commandments. The only way to get free from that sin unto death is by the Grace of God.

Rom 5:21That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Speaking of repentance......
Quote:

DHK: Repentance is a change of mind. It is a change of mind with respect to my attitude to God. Once I was rebellious to God. Then I got saved, and my mind is now changed toward God. I am now willing to submit to God, instead of rebel against him. Repentance is a change of mind in my attitude toward God. I have changed. My attitude toward my past sinful life has changed. I don't want that life any more. "There's been a great change since I've been born again." My goal now is to be holy, as God is holy." That is a change of mind--repentance.



DHK also said that repentance and faith are inseparably tied. I see this as a clear of a contradiction as possible in light of the fact he claims that Christians are in fact NOT repentant, and all are liars, and all sin. He claims that it is IMPOSSIBLE to be purified from all sin in this life, so how in the world can one be repentant according to his own definition of repentance? According to him, not only is such repentance impossible, but it does not matter, for one can not only be unrepentant, but actively involved in the commission of adultery, which I am sure includes murder or any other sin, and still claim to have faith and make it into the kingdom.

Let me ask the reader, does DHK believe in repentance at all or is he just playing lip service to it?

 

[DHK]

I agree with all that you said, but what Im saying is if we DIE daily, why couldnt we be Born again daily? if its the Spirit being in us that causes the birth? Because it says in those verses that any time we are deciding to live in the flesh we DIE spiritually, right?

I was born once into this world when my parents brought me into this world through physical birth.
I was born once into God's family when I was born again, and there is no "third" or fourth birth. There is only a second birth. You must be born again. Period. God doesn't cast us out of his family once he makes us his children; just as I would never do that to my children; and in fact cannot. They will always be my children no matter what I do. They will always have a combination of the genes inherited from both my wife and I. That can never change. Though I have a sin nature, the Holy Spirit dwells within me and has promised never to leave me. That will never change.

 

[Claudia_T]

Speaking of repentance......
Quote:

DHK: Repentance is a change of mind. It is a change of mind with respect to my attitude to God. Once I was rebellious to God. Then I got saved, and my mind is now changed toward God. I am now willing to submit to God, instead of rebel against him. Repentance is a change of mind in my attitude toward God. I have changed. My attitude toward my past sinful life has changed. I don't want that life any more. "There's been a great change since I've been born again." My goal now is to be holy, as God is holy." That is a change of mind--repentance.



DHK also said that repentance and faith are inseparably tied. I see this as a clear of a contradiction as possible in light of the fact he claims that Christians are in fact NOT repentant, and all are liars, and all sin. He claims that it is IMPOSSIBLE to be purified from all sin in this life, so how in the world can one be repentant according to his own definition of repentance? According to him, not only is such repentance impossible, but it does not matter, for one can not only be unrepentant, but actively involved in the commission of adultery, which I am sure includes murder or any other sin, and still claim to have faith and make it into the kingdom.

Let me ask the reader, does DHK believe in repentance at all or is he just playing lip service to it?

Unless I am misunderstanding DHK it doesnt seem like a contradiction to me.

Repentence, he believes, is an attitude change toward God... the "goal" is to be holy. But he believes all have sin in their lives still, which makes them all "liars" because the Bible says let God be true though every man a liar, every man doesnt completely obey the law and has some sin in their lives.

so unless Im goofy, it seems to not have any contradiction to me.

Claudia

 

[Brother Bob]

I was born once into this world when my parents brought me into this world through physical birth.
I was born once into God's family when I was born again, and there is no "third" or fourth birth. There is only a second birth. You must be born again. Period. God doesn't cast us out of his family once he makes us his children; just as I would never do that to my children; and in fact cannot. They will always be my children no matter what I do. They will always have a combination of the genes inherited from both my wife and I. That can never change. Though I have a sin nature, the Holy Spirit dwells within me and has promised never to leave me. That will never change.__________________
DHK

Ever see anyone come to the front that was a member and asked to baptized again for they had been wrong about thinking they were "born again". Well, it has happened a lot and even on this board I have seen some who said they did that.

 

[DHK]

DHK also said that repentance and faith are inseparably tied. I see this as a clear of a contradiction as possible in light of the fact he claims that Christians are in fact NOT repentant, and all are liars, and all sin. He claims that it is IMPOSSIBLE to be purified from all sin in this life, so how in the world can one be repentant according to his own definition of repentance? According to him, not only is such repentance impossible, but it does not matter, for one can not only be unrepentant, but actively involved in the commission of adultery, which I am sure includes murder or any other sin, and still claim to have faith and make it into the kingdom.

Let me ask the reader, does DHK believe in repentance at all or is he just playing lip service to it?

First it is obvious that you don't know what I believe concerning repentance.
Second if you believe that you must repent of every sin before death in order to go to heaven the chances are that you will go to Hell. You have accepted a Catholic theology. Like the Catholic, what if the priest doesn't get there fast enough to administer the sacrament of extreme unction and you have sin to confess to him? You do sin don't you?

Or do you deny that you sin. It seems that that is the position that you take. You say that you don't sin. If that be the case, then according to 1John 1:10 you are calling Christ a liar.

Again I ask you: which is it?
Are you calling Christ a liar,
Or are you admitting that you are on your way to Hell?
--You can't have it both ways.

 

[Claudia_T]

In fact if hes saying what I just said I think hes saying, I agree with him.

The thing I see differently I think has to do with a clear conscience before God and an attitude of no being in rebellion against God ... at time of death and all of that, I mean.

Claudia

 

[DHK]

Ever see anyone come to the front that was a member and asked to baptized again for they had been wrong about thinking they were "born again". Well, it has happened a lot and even on this board I have seen some who said they did that.

You can talk about false professions all you want. That is simply a red herring. It is off the topic. I am not speaking of false professions. So leave that topic for another day. I am speaking of people who were truly saved. False profession is simply a "way out" an escape method, for your theology. Your theology won't make sense unless you have this caveat in it. "Oh that must be a false profession then!" Sorry, it doesn't work that way.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Claudia: Repentance, he believes, is an attitude change toward God... the "goal" is to be holy.

HP: Is repentance merely a 'goal?' Take a man and a women that are married, and one of them is cheating on the other. Now when the one is caught, he or she admits that they committed adultery, but their goal is to quit it.

So, the next time the occasion arises they commit adultery again but still claim to have quitting as their goal.

Let me ask the reader again, how many times can this scenario be repeated until one questions the sincerity of ones supposed ‘goals’ and views the other as in an un-repentant state?

Repentance is not about merly setting goals, it is about forming ultimate intentions, acts of the will in direct opposition to past behavior. If the behavior does not change, how can one claim to be repentant? Repentance is not a New Years resolution.

 

[Brother Bob]

You can talk about false professions all you want. That is simply a red herring. It is off the topic. I am not speaking of false professions. So leave that topic for another day. I am speaking of people who were truly saved. False profession is simply a "way out" an escape method, for your theology. Your theology won't make sense unless you have this caveat in it. "Oh that must be a false profession then!" Sorry, it doesn't work that way.__________________
DHK

Hogwash, that is the subject is that we can't look into someone's heart and know they are "born again". I will not leave it for another day for I gave you plenty of scripture to show that very thing exists inour churches today and even in yours so don't tell me there are not people in membership that are false. We see it all the time, almost everyday, someone else took another's wife and run off. You can't walk around with blinders on. You either accept reality or stop even telling people about the scritures for if you don't look at the real world then you are not qualified to tell anyone anything. IMO

You call them "really saved" and I call them false professions, same people you speak of them one way and I speak of them another for you don't know who is saved and who is not. When we get to Heaven we will all get the biggest surprise in our lives of who is there and who is not, if we were to know such a thing, which I don't believe we will.

 

[Claudia_T]

well when you asked all that about DHK I didnt think he was anywhere around and so I just said what I THOUGHT he meant so dont take what I said as true... as him since hes here now

 

[Claudia_T]

HP: Is repentance merely a 'goal?' Take a man and a women that are married, and one of them is cheating on the other. Now when the one is caught, he or she admits that they committed adultery, but their goal is to quit it.

So, the next time the occasion arises they commit adultery again but still claim to have quitting as their goal.

Let me ask the reader again, how many times can this scenario be repeated until one questions the sincerity of ones supposed ‘goals’ and views the other as in an un-repentant state?

Repentance is not about merly setting goals, it is about forming ultimate intentions, acts of the will in direct opposition to past behavior. If the behavior does not change, how can one claim to be repentant? Repentance is not a New Years resolution.

oh yeah I see what you mean now

 

[Brother Bob]

John the Baptist sure turned them away.

 

[Claudia_T]

Heavenly Pilgrim,

To be truly honest, when I read what you said it almost sounds like you are just setting more "goalier" goals than he is..

and if you just kinda set your will power enough then you will perform it

I know the will does have a part to play in it but Im just not sure what difference there is between that and having a goal...

 

[DHK]

Hogwash, that is the subject is that we can't look into someone's heart and know they are "born again". I will not leave it for another day for I gave you plenty of scripture to show that very thing exists inour churches today and even in yours so don't tell me there are not people in membership that are false. We see it all the time, almost everyday, someone else took another's wife and run off. You can't walk around with blinders on. You either accept reality or stop even telling people about the scritures for if you don't look at the real world then you are not qualified to tell anyone anything. IMO

So now you are God, or at least put yourself in His position.
You have this mechanism of telling who is saved and who is not.

Person A commits adultery (though) he testified he was saved, but adultery is a big sin, and though he repents his salvation previously was not real.

Person B commits perjury, another big sin, he probably wasn't saved either.

Person C commits murder--definitely not saved no matter what his testimony was.

Person D tells a lie to his wife--Oh that is just a little sin. As long as he says he is sorry it won't affect his salvation. He was saved beforehand and still is saved. (A dichotomy and inconsistency in your theology).

Person E fudges the figures a bit on his income tax. No big deal. Everyone does that once in a while. Just tell God your sorry. It won't affect your salvation.

Person F got angry today. It was road rage. Same thing. Just confess it to God. At least you didn't hurt anyone. You didn't lose your salvation either.

Like the Catholics, Bob, you have venial and mortal sins. Some sin sends you to hell and some to purgatory (do you have that belief too?) And some sends you right to Hell itself?
You are totally inconsistent. Sin is sin. All sin is a transgression of the law. God doesn't differentiate between sin. He is no respector of person. One little white lie condemns a person to Hell,
If you have road rage; it is just as bad as adultery. There is no difference. In fact in our society you are apt to pay a greater fine in the courts for road rage than for adultery. I believe you system of Catholicism is akin to heresy.
The blood of Christ is sufficient enough to cover all sins, not just some of them. A true believer si capable of any sin, and one sin is just as bad as another. If at the time of death you have unconfessed sin does the blood of Christ cover that sin? That is the major question here. You say it doesn't and that is heresy. You say a person will go to hell for unconfessed sin. The blood of Christ will not cover that sin. That means you believe in a works based salvation.

 

[Brother Bob]

So now you are God, or at least put yourself in His position.
You have this mechanism of telling who is saved and who is not.

BBob; DHK, honestly can you read? In the same post you say "so now your are God and can tell who is saved and who is not is the following post. (In the very same post, as a matter of fact, it is the first words in that post) yikes!!!

Originally Posted by Brother Bob
Hogwash, that is the subject is that we can't look into someone's heart and know they are "born again".

 

[Brother Bob]

DHK:
Person A commits adultery (though) he testified he was saved, but adultery is a big sin, and though he repents his salvation previously was not real.

There was no salvation previously, how could he repent before he did it.


Person B commits perjury, another big sin, he probably wasn't saved either.

If he repented after the sin and was born again then he was saved. If as you put it he was saved and then commits perjury then it is a false confession.


Person C commits murder--definitely not saved no matter what his testimony was.

If he repented after the sin and was born again then he is saved. If as you say, he was saved and then committed murder, another false confession

Person D tells a lie to his wife--Oh that is just a little sin. As long as he says he is sorry it won't affect his salvation. He was saved beforehand and still is saved. (A dichotomy and inconsistency in your theology).

If he told a lie to deceive his wife then he must repent and be born again for not my words but he words of the Lord, there will be no "liars" in Heaven. It belong to God, not me.


Person E fudges the figures a bit on his income tax. No big deal. Everyone does that once in a while. Just tell God your sorry. It won't affect your salvation.

If he is a thief then he is not saved and must repent if he want to go to Heaven. That is scripture, again not my conditions but the Lord’s.


Person F got angry today. It was road rage. Same thing. Just confess it to God. At least you didn't hurt anyone. You didn't lose your salvation either.

No where does it say angry is a sin unless you do something while anger that is sinful. Roadrage, I don’t believe it to be one of the Ten Commandments that is for sure. Again, the words of the Lord, there is a sin and there is a sin unto death. Where this one fits is up to the Lord, not me.


Like the Catholics, Bob, you have venial and mortal sins. Some sin sends you to hell and some to purgatory (do you have that belief too?) And some sends you right to Hell itself?
You are totally inconsistent. Sin is sin. All sin is a transgression of the law. God doesn't differentiate between sin. He is no respector of person. One little white lie condemns a person to Hell,

If you have road rage; it is just as bad as adultery. There is no difference. In fact in our society you are apt to pay a greater fine in the courts for road rage than for adultery. I believe you system of Catholicism is akin to heresy.
The blood of Christ is sufficient enough to cover all sins, not just some of them. A true believer si capable of any sin, and one sin is just as bad as another. If at the time of death you have unconfessed sin does the blood of Christ cover that sin? That is the major question here. You say it doesn't and that is heresy. You say a person will go to hell for unconfessed sin. The blood of Christ will not cover that sin. That means you believe in a works based salvation.
__________________
DHK


Road rage is as bad as adultery, die on top of neighbor’s wife, no problem, and you call my doctrine heresy. So now the courts of the land will determine whether we are saved or not. Yikes!!!! I find it rather childish answering such questions.


I will refrain from saying what I think about your doctrine, it speaks for itself.

 

[steaver]

Brother Bob, you say....

You call them "really saved" and I call them false professions, same people you speak of them one way and I speak of them another for you don't know who is saved and who is not. When we get to Heaven we will all get the biggest surprise in our lives of who is there and who is not, if we were to know such a thing, which I don't believe we will.

If you do not know who is saved and who is not, and nobody can know, why do you give answers as though you do know who is saved and who is not?

God Bless!

 

[steaver]

Brother Bob, you speak about adultery being a sin that proves one has not been born of God. Jesus clearly told us that even looking at another woman lustfully is adultery. Am I to believe that you have never glanced at another woman anywhere at anytime since your conversion without a lustful thought forming in your head if even for a split second before you caught yourself and said forgive me Lord? Are you married? Was you saved before you were married and if so did you ever have a lustful thought about your future bride to be? Careful of your answer lest you should be found a liar as well as an adulterer.

How do you view children who receive Jesus Christ at a very young age and then maybe they get accused of sneeking a coke out of the frig before supper and then lie saying they didn't do it, or something like that? Never saved? Do you know of any young children who have never told a lie whether born of God or not? What about these children? Saved, then lost, never saved?

Not saying that it is an impossible task to never lust, but I know that I have failed many times yet Jesus Christ is still and always will be my Lord and God. So would you call me never saved, then saved, never saved. then saved again, is my born again faith in Jesus Christ nullified because of my transgressions after my regeneration?

God Bless!

 

[Diggin in da Word]

This statement

Why would you accept an adulterer back into fellowship of your church?
What if said person died while in the act of committing adultery?
You first accepted him into your church as a saved person.
He was saved prior to the act was he not?
Was he still saved after the act?
Or do you believe that these men that you have mentioned must be born again and again and again?

Paul commanded the Corinthian church to take in the repentant fornicator, for he no longer was a fornicator. If one is repentant, the church should take that one back in.

I, like Bob, would question any preacher caught in sin, especially so great as adultery. One who is repentant will not continue in sin. They may sin from time to time, but not continue in sin.

One who is preaching is not necessarily saved. There are many who preach Christ and Him crucified, yet live like the divil behind the scenes.

My Bible tells me we cannot serve two masters. We cannot eat at the table of devils while drinking of the Lord's cup. Before tagging one as being saved because of a profession of faith, one should test the spirits to see if they are of God. Is that one producing fruit meet for repentance? Is that one showing forth the fruit of the Spirit?

An inward change of the heart and mind will produce an outward change as well. The demoniac that lived among the tombs, when touched by the Lord, did not remain naked and crazy... He was clothed, and in his right mind!

Is one who preaches Christ and lives in sin in his right mind? I think not!