Under Grace or Under Law?...Round 3

[DHK]

Paul commanded the Corinthian church to take in the repentant fornicator, for he no longer was a fornicator. If one is repentant, the church should take that one back in.

I, like Bob, would question any preacher caught in sin, especially so great as adultery. One who is repentant will not continue in sin. They may sin from time to time, but not continue in sin.

The question is: Was he saved when he was in the act of immorality.
The answer is: Yes he was. Paul was writing to believers. He refers to him as a brother. Christians sin. The reason for the "excommunication" if we can use that word, is to keep the church pure. Let's look at some of the context:

1 Corinthians 5:11-13 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.
12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?
13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.

In these last three verses of the chapter Paul instructs the Corinthian believers how to behave toward other believers that are walking in sin. He does not classify these people as unsaved. Note that they are called brothers indicating that they are saved. These are saved people that are called: fornicators, covetous, idolaters, railers, drunkards, and extortioners. All these people are examples of Christians living in sin.
Paul says not to keep company with them, but he doesn't say that they are not saved. He says plainly that the church is to judge them that are within, that is the Christians, the believers within the Church, not the average adulterer outside the church. These sinners were within the church but were disciplined out of the church. Do not keep company with those believers who are bringing a reproach on the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, Paul is saying.

One who is preaching is not necessarily saved. There are many who preach Christ and Him crucified, yet live like the divil behind the scenes.

Both true and false. The first part of your statement is true. The second part of your statement judges a person by the way that they live. Because they don't live up to your standard, or how you think a pastor should live, then do you judge them to be unsaved? That is not your perogative. Only God knows the heart.

My Bible tells me we cannot serve two masters. We cannot eat at the table of devils while drinking of the Lord's cup.

You have quoted that verse before. You are using it out of context. It has nothing to do with this conversation.

Before tagging one as being saved because of a profession of faith, one should test the spirits to see if they are of God.

Have you experience in doing this? Tell me how you go about "testing the spirits?"

Is that one producing fruit meet for repentance? Is that one showing forth the fruit of the Spirit?

Are you quoting from the theology of John the Baptist? That is OT theology. John the Baptist said: "Bring forth fruit meet for repentance." Why should one bring forth fruit that is suitable or worthy of repentance. Fruit doesn't come before repentance but after. We don't live under the Law like John the Baptist, but under grace.
Furthermore, not every Christian shows the fruit of the Spirit all the time every day of their life. I am sure you don't evidence all the fruit all the time in your life either.

An inward change of the heart and mind will produce an outward change as well. The demoniac that lived among the tombs, when touched by the Lord, did not remain naked and crazy... He was clothed, and in his right mind!
Is one who preaches Christ and lives in sin in his right mind? I think not!

Not everyone that comes to the Lord is demon possessed. Were you?
A bit of an unfair comparison don't you think?
Secondly, I have never yet mentioned anyone who "continually" lives in sin. I am not referring to such an individual. I have repeatedly said: concerning a person who siins, falls into sin, commits sin, etc. Not who lives in sin, or who lives a life-style of sin. That is not the type of individual we are discussing. There is a difference.

 

[Diggin in da Word]

I believe we are under both Law and Grace. Jesus did not come to destroy the Law. He commanded to keep the Law (His Commandments).

John said if we don't keep His Commandments, we do not know Him.

Sounds like we are under not just Grace, but Law as well.

 

[DHK]

I believe we are under both Law and Grace. Jesus did not come to destroy the Law. He commanded to keep the Law (His Commandments).

John said if we don't keep His Commandments, we do not know Him.

Sounds like we are under not just Grace, but Law as well.

In no way are we under the law. The law was fulfilled at the cross. Jesus came to fulfill the law. And so it was. He plainly said that John the Baptist was the last of the OT prophets. That put a definite cap on the law and the OT. That dispensation ended at the cross. The sacrifices ended. They were all fore-shadows of that one great sacrifice which was to come. John the Baptist pointed to that Sacrifice:
Behold the Lamb of God which takes away the sin of the world.

John said if we don't keep his commandments we do not know him.
His commandments have nothing to do with OT law. His commandments are found written in the gospels. His commandments are those like he told Nicodemus: "You must be born again."
The law could never and cannot save.
But under grace we are saved by grace through faith.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Ro 2:19 And art confident that thou thyself art a guide of the blind, a light of them which are in darkness,
20 An instructor of the foolish, a teacher of babes, which hast the form of knowledge and of the truth in the law.
21 Thou therefore which teachest another, teachest thou not thyself? thou that preachest a man should not steal, dost thou steal?
22 Thou that sayest a man should not commit adultery, dost thou commit adultery? thou that abhorrest idols, dost thou commit sacrilege?
23 Thou that makest thy boast of the law, through breaking the law dishonourest thou God?
24 For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written.

HP: May it not be named once among us.

 

[Diggin in da Word]

Jesus gave two commandments:

Love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, mind, soul and strength.

and Love thy neighbor as thyself.

He said on these two hang all the Law and the prophets.

How can you say the OT is not taught by Jesus?

 

[DHK]

Jesus gave two commandments:

Love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, mind, soul and strength.

and Love thy neighbor as thyself.

He said on these two hang all the Law and the prophets.

How can you say the OT is not taught by Jesus?

The moral law of the Ten Commandments are not all that there is to the OT. Ask the SDA's. We do not have the perogative of picking and choosing which laws of the OT we like to obey and which ones we don't want to obey. We are either under it or not. Either we apply the laws concerning wearing all one kind of garment (like linen), and stay perfectly consistent with the diet of the Jews, as well as all the other commandments or we don't, and admit that we are not under the law.
Which is it?

 

[D28guy]

Brother Bob,

Concerning the one committing adultery...

"1. He would have to do what all adulterers do and that is stop and repent and be baptized."

Repent and BE BAPTIZED???

Every time you worry...which you acknowledged is a sin just like adultery...do you go to church, confess that you are now a lost sinner for worrying, repent of that sin of worrying, and then be re-baptised?

Mike

 

[EdSutton]

Jesus gave two commandments:

Love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, mind, soul and strength.

and Love thy neighbor as thyself.

He said on these two hang all the Law and the prophets.

How can you say the OT is not taught by Jesus?

FTR, Jesus did not actually "give" these two commandments, in that sense. They are merely 'quoted', and are in fact found in Lev. 19:18, and Deut. 6:4, which happen to be in the 'civil law' and the 'ceremonial law'. But it does kinda' throw a monkey wrench into the idea the the Ten Commandments is superior to the rest of the Law, hunh??

Ed

 

[EdSutton]

All I got to say is I am going to be found in two places, at that day. First of all, "in Him" (Phillipians 3:9) clothed in His righteousness. And second I'm gonna' stand alongside some of the greatest saints found in the Bible, the sort of whom I would 'feel' comfotrtable around. I'll give ten or so.

Adam, Noah, Jacob, Samson, Rahab, David, Solomon, Jonah, Peter, Paul, and Lot.

The way I got it figured, that's a crooked farmer, a drunken sailor, a thief, a conniving womanizer, a prostitute, a murderer and adulterer, the greatest Romeo that ever lived, the most bigoted preacher in history, the most notorious Christ denying individual in history and a hypocrite, the chief of sinners, and the Mayor of Sodom.

I can relate to these; I have a hard times relating to the religious crowd that were so sure about their "holiness" that Jesus said to them "Depart from me!", and "You're a bunch of whitewashed tombs!" Somehow I don't like that crowd very much, and I think I'm in good company!

I much prefer under grace!

Ed

 

[D28guy]

Ed.

Ed.....Ed.....Ed.

You just dont understand. Let me explain it to you.

They all quickly repented, came to the altar, wept, sought forgiveness, and where re-baptised just before they died.



God...

"For it is by grace that you are saved, through faith. And that not of yourself, it is the gift of God. Not of works lest anyone should boast"

Wicked man to Christ...

"Rememeber me, when you come into your kingdon"

Christ...

"Today you will be with me in Paradise"

Wicked man...

"God, be merciful to me a sinner"

Christ...

"Justified"

God bless,

Mike

 

[D28guy]

For your consideration, here is a link to something very VERY good...

http://www.e-grace.net/pierce1.html

And heres a link to the home page of that excellant web site...

http://www.e-grace.net/grace.html

God bless,

Mike

 

[Diggin in da Word]

Ever look at the word 'desire'?

Interesting word. God said if we delight in Him, He will give us the desires of our heart.

Jesus told the Pharisees 'Ye are of your father the devil.' Earlier, He told them 'Ye do the deeds of your father, and the lusts of your father ye will do.'

Just as God gives His children desires, satan gives desires too.

look again at the word 'desire'. de==sire... de means away from or apart from; sire means father.

If one is in sin, he is apart from the Father God; and doing the deeds and lusts of his father, the devil.

If one commits such sin as adultery, fornication, lying, murder, etc just prior to death, he was doing the works of his father and never truly knew God. If he had known God, he would have kept His commandments.

 

[DHK]

If one commits such sin as adultery, fornication, lying, murder, etc just prior to death, he was doing the works of his father and never truly knew God. If he had known God, he would have kept His commandments.

Is this a judgement call that you have a right to call? By what authority do you have the right to make God's decision on someone else's salvation?
In effect you are denying that the blood of Christ was not sufficient to cover the last sins that a Christian commits. It may cover the sins of a new believer, but not that of a believer near the end of his life. That is very inconsistent. To say that Christ's blood is not sufficient enough to cover all of our sins is akin to heresy. He made the payment to atone for all of our sins, not just the first ones that we commit; not just the so-called little ones; not just the ones that one decides are too big for him to forgive. Who has the right to tell God what sins he can or cannot forgive? Is not that the height of arrogance?

 

[Diggin in da Word]

His Word clearly states one who knows Him will keep His commandments. One who breaks His commandments therefore, does not know Him.

No, by the authority of God's Holy Word, I can say that person whose final act on this earth was an abominable act in God's eyes was of his father the devil and never knew the one true God.

 

[D28guy]

Diggin,

"His Word clearly states one who knows Him will keep His commandments. "

Then we all are lost...including you. Every christian from the day of pentecost until today has gone to hell.

Reading those passages about "keeping the commandments" the way you and Brother Bob and many others do means that no christian has ever made heaven, or ever will.

The way you get around it is by talking out of both sides of your mouth, wanting to have it both ways.

Able to condemn those terrible others, while inventing loopholes so that you can feel like you will make it.

"But I repent real quick!"

"But I rarely sin, and its small sins!"

"But I go to the altar and weep and get baptised again!"

etc etc etc etc etc.

I pray that God will one day remove the scales off of the eyes of anyone clinging to self rightious legalism and theology designed to condemn rather then proclaim the wonderful truth of the new birth and the security and freedom we are blessed to be a part of.

God bless,

Mike

 

[Claudia_T]

whats kind of scary for me is that the more I read here the more I find that I am in agreement with the things DHK says than what Brother Bob and some of the others say.

It might just be that BBob and others take such a hard line approach to things.. I guess I must fall somewhere in the middle of the road...

One thing I was thinking last night though was that well if I see it that "at the end" it all has to do with whether or not we are in rebellion in our attitude about God's ways... then the way that I view "repentance" from the start needs to be that way too. I kind of realized that when I was reading DHK's stuff about repentance.

although I do still believe that as far as possible we should be inspecting our hearts and confessing the sins we DO know to God... not just in a general way. I find this helps me when I review the day, that I can see more clearly what needs changing about my attitudes, etc...

well anyway its interesting because I think this is the first time Ive ever changed my mind about anything by read the stuff on this Baptist Board. Actually it didnt "change my mind" as much as it made me more in tune with how I really feel about things when I didnt realize that I actually felt that way. I guess I just never sat around thinking about all of this before now, with all these "suicide" threads that have been posted.

Yikes!

Claudia

 

[ccrobinson]

No, by the authority of God's Holy Word, I can say that person whose final act on this earth was an abominable act in God's eyes was of his father the devil and never knew the one true God.

If this were true, how would you reconcile I John 5:13?

These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

Since none of us knows the precise moment when we will die, and it is relatively likely that there will be unconfessed sin at that moment, how can we possibly know that we are saved?

 

[steaver]

All I got to say is I am going to be found in two places, at that day. First of all, "in Him" (Phillipians 3:9) clothed in His righteousness. And second I'm gonna' stand alongside some of the greatest saints found in the Bible, the sort of whom I would 'feel' comfotrtable around. I'll give ten or so.

Adam, Noah, Jacob, Samson, Rahab, David, Solomon, Jonah, Peter, Paul, and Lot.

The way I got it figured, that's a crooked farmer, a drunken sailor, a thief, a conniving womanizer, a prostitute, a murderer and adulterer, the greatest Romeo that ever lived, the most bigoted preacher in history, the most notorious Christ denying individual in history and a hypocrite, the chief of sinners, and the Mayor of Sodom.

I can relate to these; I have a hard times relating to the religious crowd that were so sure about their "holiness" that Jesus said to them "Depart from me!", and "You're a bunch of whitewashed tombs!" Somehow I don't like that crowd very much, and I think I'm in good company!

I much prefer under grace!

Ed

Amen Ed! :thumbs:

And everyone else here will say "yes, by grace I am saved" and then some will go about continuing the post of how we must keep OURSELVES saved! Amazing, just amazing! They just cannot grasp "NOT OF YOURSELVES" written in scripture.:tonofbricks:

God Bless!

 

[Claudia_T]

No, by the authority of God's Holy Word, I can say that person whose final act on this earth was an abominable act in God's eyes was of his father the devil and never knew the one true God.

Im not sure who said that but in my opinion we cannot possibly know that they never knew God. David murdered and committed adultery. Its just that he repented of his sin. Had he died "during the act" that wouldnt mean we could determine that the man never knew God and was of his father the devil.

Claudia

 

[Claudia_T]

All I got to say is I am going to be found in two places, at that day. First of all, "in Him" (Phillipians 3:9) clothed in His righteousness. And second I'm gonna' stand alongside some of the greatest saints found in the Bible, the sort of whom I would 'feel' comfotrtable around. I'll give ten or so.

Adam, Noah, Jacob, Samson, Rahab, David, Solomon, Jonah, Peter, Paul, and Lot.

The way I got it figured, that's a crooked farmer, a drunken sailor, a thief, a conniving womanizer, a prostitute, a murderer and adulterer, the greatest Romeo that ever lived, the most bigoted preacher in history, the most notorious Christ denying individual in history and a hypocrite, the chief of sinners, and the Mayor of Sodom.

I can relate to these; I have a hard times relating to the religious crowd that were so sure about their "holiness" that Jesus said to them "Depart from me!", and "You're a bunch of whitewashed tombs!" Somehow I don't like that crowd very much, and I think I'm in good company!

I much prefer under grace!

Ed

well its not as if these people didnt repent of their sins. The reason Jesus said to the Pharisees that the Prostitutes were nearer the kingdom of Heaven than they were wasnt because Jesus expected them to STAY in that business...

Its just that they "knew they needed a Physician", and thus, they could have their problem healed. It didnt mean they'd go into the kingdom as Prostitutes and carry on some "Heavenly Prostitutional Services" for all the Saints there.

It just seems to me that everybody here goes to EXTREMES... on the one hand you got your guys who act like God is just going to pounce down upon you if you commit a sin and that they just know who is going to heaven and who is not.... and they'd throw them out of church because of a sin.

Then on the other hand you got your guys who act like just anybody is going to be in Heaven, no matter how they act...

BOTH are wrong.... in my opinion. and it seems to me that BOTH are causing others to see the folly of both extreme sides... I mean, if you are really paying attention.

God doesnt run some sort of "Prostitutes for Jesus" service in Heaven, neither does He go around throwing people out of Church because they sin over a certain amount of times. And just happen to be sinning when their "number is up". I just cringe when I read both sides of these conversations here...


In my opinion, whats missing in these conversations is the PERSISTENT ATTITUDE OF REBELLION AGAINST GOD... and THAT is the problem... persistent sin and the tenor of one's ways... that is the determining factor, and really, we cannot know one's heart.

I compare going along in the right way as Peter walking on water, as long as he kept looking at Jesus (HOW to stop sinning) and wanting to walk on water (the attitude of not rebelling against God), he COULD DO IT. As soon as he stopped looking at Jesus and looked down at himself he sank. Because a person does this doesnt mean he is lost. If he sees his mistake, turns and puts his eyes back on Jesus... then Jesus doesnt cast him off because of his mistake.

Claudia