Under Grace or Under Law?...Round 3

[D28guy]

OK everyone. Play nice. :thumbs:

 

[Claudia_T]

and your definition of nice isssssssssssssss? :laugh:

 

[D28guy]

Claudia,

"and your definition of nice isssssssssssssss? :laugh:"

Hmmmm. Food for thought for sure.

Well, I guess the best definition would be...

"Do unto others as you would have them do unto you" :godisgood:

Or....POST :type: unto others as you would have them POST :type: unto you!

Grace and peace,

Mike

 

[DQuixote]

God's word is not debateable.

 

[D28guy]

"God's word is not debateable."

AMEN!

When God tells us we are freed from the curse of the Law, He means it.

Mike

 

[Claudia_T]

okay well I guess this thread is over then! wow that was fast!

 

[Claudia_T]

The only problem is it means just what it says, we are freed from the CURSE of the law.

 

[D28guy]

Gotta go to work. :BangHead:

Back in the wee hours...:wavey:

Mike

 

[Brother Bob]

I would feel guilty, and in need of confession and repentance of that sin to the Lord, just as David did. There would be no difference. The man in 1Cor.5 was called a brother. He was disciplined out of the church because he was a brother who was in the act of gross immorality. Paul told the church not to keep company with those believers which were fornicators, and the such, no not even to eat with them that they would be ashamed of what they were doing. The object of excluding one from the fellowship of believers was to bring him to repentance. He did not lose his salvation. We find in 2Cor. that the same man was brought back into the church. He never lost his salvation. He repented and was admitted back into the church. There, you have a Biblical example of the very question you asked.

If you want a modern example of a widely known man, there is Jack Hyles who was found out to be carrying on an affair with his secretary. I don't know all the details, nor do I want to. I just know it happened. I also know he died. Is he in heaven today. I have no reason to believe he sin't.__________________
DHK

I assume you are saying you could continue on as a member of the church and still feel saved inside. You are different than I am DHK, I couldn't and always have wondered how someone could. I personally knew at least 3 preachers who were committing adultery and continued on preaching for quite some time before it came out on them. We wasted no time in removing ourselves from them and asked them to repent and if God forgave them then we would bring them back by the door as a new convert.

Also, in no way would I advocate that Jack Hyles was in Heaven unless He repented from his sin and accepted the Lord in His life.

Please give me verse and chapter where the man in 1 and 2 Corth was put out and never lost his salvation and came back in 2 Corth. I will look for it but maybe you know already the chapter and verses.

found this in
1 Corth. 6 but still looking.
15: Know ye not that your bodies are the members of Christ? shall I then take the members of Christ, and make them the members of an harlot? God forbid.
16: What? know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body? for two, saith he, shall be one flesh.
17: But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.
18: Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that commiteth fornication sinneth against his own body.
19: What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
20: For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

1 Corth. 3:
16: Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
17: If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

1 Corth. 5:



1: It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife.
2: And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you.
3: For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed,
4: In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
5: To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

11: But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.


What makes you think that 2 Corth: is talking about restoring this man in 1Corth.? According to Paul God had already taken care of that man.
17: If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

1 Corth. 10:
17: For we being many are one bread, and one body: for we are all partakers of that one bread.
18: Behold Israel after the flesh: are not they which eat of the sacrifices partakers of the alter?
19: What say I then? that the idol is any thing, or that which is offered in sacrifice to idols is any thing?
20: But I say, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils, and not to God: and I would not that ye should have fellowship with devils.

This is who Paul said to forgive, is any who have caused grief. He didn't preach one Gospel on the way through and another on the way back.


2 Corth. 2:
5: But if any have caused grief, he hath not grieved me, but in part: that I may not overcharge you all.
6: Sufficient to such a man is this punishment, which was inflicted of many.
7: So that contrariwise ye ought rather to forgive him, and comfort him, lest perhaps such a one should be swallowed up with overmuch sorrow.
8: Wherefore I beseech you that ye would confirm your love toward him.
9: For to this end also did I write, that I might know the proof of you, whether ye be obedient in all things.
10: To whom ye forgive any thing, I forgive also: for if I forgave any thing, to whom I forgave it, for your sakes forgave I it in the person of Christ

 

[DHK]

Also, in no way would I advocate that Jack Hyles was in Heaven unless He repented from his sin and accepted the Lord in His life.

Aaaaj, now I understand. The key word in that statement is unless. That means you don't believe in OSAS. You believe one can lose their salvation. You don't believe eternal means eternal but only temporary--that Jesus lied when he said I give unto you eternal life because somehow eternal turns into temporary life every time a person sins. This is what you believe? Am I right?

 

[Brother Bob]

Aaaaj, now I understand. The key word in that statement is unless. That means you don't believe in OSAS. You believe one can lose their salvation. You don't believe eternal means eternal but only temporary--that Jesus lied when he said I give unto you eternal life because somehow eternal turns into temporary life every time a person sins. This is what you believe? Am I right?__________________
DHK

What makes you think I thought he ever was a saved person?

Mat 24:11And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.

2Pe 2:1¶But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

Gal 2:4And that because of false brethren unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage

 

[DHK]

What makes you think I thought he ever was a saved person?

This statement

I personally knew at least 3 preachers who were committing adultery and continued on preaching for quite some time before it came out on them. We wasted no time in removing ourselves from them and asked them to repent and if God forgave them then we would bring them back by the door as a new convert.

Why would you accept an adulterer back into fellowship of your church?
What if said person died while in the act of committing adultery?
You first accepted him into your church as a saved person.
He was saved prior to the act was he not?
Was he still saved after the act?
Or do you believe that these men that you have mentioned must be born again and again and again?

 

[Claudia_T]

This statement

Why would you accept an adulterer back into fellowship of your church?
What if said person died while in the act of committing adultery?
You first accepted him into your church as a saved person.
He was saved prior to the act was he not?
Was he still saved after the act?
Or do you believe that these men that you have mentioned must be born again and again and again?

well why did Paul say "I die daily"? You have to die before being born again dont you? Each day you decide whether or not you want to continue on with God... thats why the Bible says Today if you hear His voice harden not your heart. Paul died daily because he had to decide to allow self to die and allow God's Spirit to live in him instead... what are we born of? The Spirit?

 

[Claudia_T]

This statement

Why would you accept an adulterer back into fellowship of your church?
What if said person died while in the act of committing adultery?
You first accepted him into your church as a saved person.
He was saved prior to the act was he not?
Was he still saved after the act?
Or do you believe that these men that you have mentioned must be born again and again and again?

1Cor:15:31: I die daily.


Note verse 13... you are either dying to the flesh and living in the Spirit or else you are living in the flesh and dead spiritually.

Romans 8:
9: But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10: And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11: But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
12: Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
13: For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
14: For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
15: For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

 

[DHK]

well why did Paul say "I die daily"? You have to die before being born again dont you? Each day you decide whether or not you want to continue on with God... thats why the Bible says Today if you hear His voice harden not your heart. Paul died daily because he had to decide to allow self to die and allow God's Spirit to live in him instead... what are we born of? The Spirit?

Paul wrote "I die daily" in 1Cor.15:31. It was his testimony as a Christian. We are commanded as disciples to die spiritually, that is to put this body to death every day. What that means is to say no to our carnal desires and yes to the desires of the Holy Spirit. That is why a true believer doesn't use OSAS as a licence to sin.

Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

 

[Brother Bob]

Why would you accept an adulterer back into fellowship of your church?
What if said person died while in the act of committing adultery?
You first accepted him into your church as a saved person.
He was saved prior to the act was he not?
Was he still saved after the act?
Or do you believe that these men that you have mentioned must be born again and again and again?__________________
DHK

I can't see into a man's heart so I have to accept his word and fruits he bears.

1. He would have to do what all adulterers do and that is stop and repent and be baptized. I can tell you this much, if he did it over and over there would come a time that I would not even get my pants wet for him.

2. If he died while committing adultery it would be a sure sign to me that he was a false member. God will deal with him and if they called me in his funeral, I would say he is in the hands of a just God that will do right by him. In no way would I say he was a Christian after finding out he was an adultereous.

3. He may have told me he was saved, that don't make it so for any of us. It takes a lifetime to prove what we are.

4. He wasn't saved before the act, much less after.

5. I believe they must be born again and if it were possible that they had been born again and put God to an open shame to renew such a one again unto repentance is impossible. So his best chance is that he had been wrong about his conviction.

2Cr 11:13For such [are] false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.

Mat 7:22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

Who do you think these people are DHK;, seems if I followed your theology, there would be none of these.

 

[Claudia_T]

Paul wrote "I die daily" in 1Cor.15:31. It was his testimony as a Christian. We are commanded as disciples to die spiritually, that is to put this body to death every day. What that means is to say no to our carnal desires and yes to the desires of the Holy Spirit. That is why a true believer doesn't use OSAS as a licence to sin.

Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

I agree with all that you said, but what Im saying is if we DIE daily, why couldnt we be Born again daily? if its the Spirit being in us that causes the birth? Because it says in those verses that any time we are deciding to live in the flesh we DIE spiritually, right?

13: For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
14: For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.


and it says if we dont have the Spirit then we are "none of His".

So then dont we "fall out" of the Spirit if we arent choosing to mortify our members THAT DAY? and if so why couldnt we have to be "born again" anew after that? just like we die daily... cause you can only be one of two things, alive or dead, right?

 

[Claudia_T]

I can't see into a man's heart so I have to accept his word and fruits he bears.

1. He would have to do what all adulterers do and that is stop and repent and be baptized. I can tell you this much, if he did it over and over there would come a time that I would not even get my pants wet for him.

2. If he died while committing adultery it would be a sure sign to me that he was a false member. God will deal with him and if they called me in his funeral, I would say he is in the hands of a just God that will do right by him. In no way would I say he was a Christian after finding out he was an adultereous.

3. He may have told me he was saved, that don't make it so for any of us. It takes a lifetime to prove what we are.

4. He wasn't saved before the act, much less after.

5. I believe they must be born again and if it were possible that they had been born again and put God to an open shame to renew such a one again unto repentance is impossible. So his best chance is that he had been wrong about his conviction.

2Cr 11:13For such [are] false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.

Mat 7:22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

Who do you think these people are DHK;, seems if I followed your theology, there would be none of these.

BBob,

when it comes to this verse you used:

Heb:6:
4: For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5: And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6: If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

dont you think that probably refers to blasphmy against the Holy Spirit?

Because it says they were "Once partakers of the Holy Ghost".

When I do a study on what it means to Blaspheme the Holy Spirit, I find that it means to keep rejecting and rejecting the Holy Spirit till finally you begin viewing light as darkness and darkness as light. then God cant get through to you any longer.

How you can tell that is if you no longer have any desire to even be reconciled with God. You can no longer hear and respond to God's Spirit calling you.

The Bible says if someone sins against you 77 times you should forgive him infinite number of times. right?


Claudia

 

[Brother Bob]

dont you think that probably refers to blasphmy against the Holy Spirit?

Because it says they were "Once partakers of the Holy Ghost".

When I do a study on what it means to Blaspheme the Holy Spirit, I find that it means to keep rejecting and rejecting the Holy Spirit till finally you begin viewing light as darkness and darkness as light. then God cant get through to you any longer.

How you can tell that is if you no longer have any desire to even be reconciled with God.

The Bible says if someone sins against you 77 times you should forgive him infinite number of times. right?


Claudia

Not really, I think it means a sin unto death.

A sin against me is one thing and the only one I can forgive. A sin against God, I can't forgive to start with, it must be God that forgives him.

 

[Claudia_T]

Not really, I think it means a sin unto death.

A sin against me is one thing and the only one I can forgive. A sin against God, I can't forgive to start with, it must be God that forgives him.

I missed the whole sin unto death thing and so I dont know what that means. But I dont want you to have to re-explain