Under Grace or Under Law?

[Claudia_T]

We talked on another thread about being Under the Law or Under Grace. I would like to see if we can come to some sort of an understanding on this...

1. Does anyone think they can be sinless?

2. Do we have to and can we keep the Law of God?

3. Does being Under Grace null out the Law of God?


What is YOUR interpretation of Romans Chapter 6 here?


Romans 6:
6: Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7: For he that is dead is freed from sin.
8: Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
9: Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
10: For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
11: Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
12: Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
13: Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
14: For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
15: What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
16: Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
17: But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
18: Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

 

[Claudia_T]

1Jn:3:9: Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.


What does that mean?


anybody?


Then there's this one...

1Jn:1:8: If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.


How do you reconcile those two verses?

 

[D28guy]

Hi Claudia,

"1. Does anyone think they can be sinless?"

No, not me.

"2. Do we have to and can we keep the Law of God?

No we dont have to, and no we cant. The reason?

We are to walk in "the newness of the Spirit, not the oldness of the letter", because "The letter kills, but the Spirit gives life", and because "For as many as are under the works of the Law are under a curse".

"3. Does being Under Grace null out the Law of God?

Absolutly not. It still has its ordained purpose.

I'm limited on time right now, so I cant comment on Romans 6 as you requested. I'll let others more qualified than me comment.

God bless!

Mike

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Claudia: 1Jn:3:9: Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.


What does that mean?


anybody?

HP: What are you doing here? I posted on the other thread in answer to your pouting.

I also addressed the word ‘cannot’ briefly as well. ‘Cannot’ does not suggest an impossibility, but a ‘total unwillingness’ to sin.

Claudia:
‘1. Does anyone think they can be sinless?

HP: Absolutely. Jesus commanded “go and sin no more.” If He commands it He will make a way IF we are willing to follow and avail ourselves moment by moment to His proffered help. :”There is therefore now no temptation taken you…..”

Claudia: 2. Do we have to and can we keep the Law of God?

HP: “Without holiness, no man shall see the Lord.” “ Unless your righteousness exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no wise enter the kingdom of heaven”

Claudia: 3. Does being Under Grace null out the Law of God?

HP: Jesus said, He did not come to destroy the law or the prophets, but rather to fulfill them. John tells us that if we say we love the Lord and keep not His commandments, we are liars and the truth is not in us.

 

[Claudia_T]

Hi Claudia,



No, not me.



No we dont have to, and no we cant. The reason?

We are to walk in "the newness of the Spirit, not the oldness of the letter", because "The letter kills, but the Spirit gives life", and because "For as many as are under the works of the Law are under a curse".



Absolutly not. It still has its ordained purpose.

I'm limited on time right now, so I cant comment on Romans 6 as you requested. I'll let others more qualified than me comment.

God bless!

Mike

How do you reconcile that with the fact that in many places the Bible tells us to keep the commandments then? also in Romans 6 it says not to "continue in sin" ... the ONLY definition of sin is "transgression of the Law"
1Jn:3:4: Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

Roimans 6:
1: What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2: God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

 

[Brother Bob]

Bob Ryan:The New Creation the new nature desires to serve God and the sinful nature desire sin -- but there is still only one PERSON and that PERSON that SOUL must "give an account for the deeds done in the body whether they be good or evil". 2Cor 5:10

that person may choose to give in to the lusts of the sinful nature OR that person may choose to avail themselves of the weapons of warfare by which "we are taking every thought captive to the obedience of Christ" 2Cor 10:4 which means "really keeping' Christ's commandments.

Christ said "If you love me KEEP My commandments" -- no one who is an adulterer can say "I DO keep them inwardly just not outwardly" there is no room at all for that -- for what is done "outwardly" is the FRUIT that is SEEN according to Matt 7.

Yes KEEP Christ's Commandments -- but that means REALLY kEEP - not fake keep as in breaking them continually outwardly but claiming that inwardly you are still sinless and perfectly obedient. there is only one Person one SOUL and that person must choose which nature to listen to and the result is the "action" the "fruit" that is seen.

In Christ,

Bob

Three questions for now.

1. Do you believe a man that is saved is "born again".

2. If so, do you believe that to be the whole "one" man?

3. Also if so, Is it born with a corruptible seed or an Incorruptible

 

[Claudia_T]

HP: What are you doing here? I posted on the other thread in answer to your pouting.

Its a different thread and they closed the other one down?

 

[Claudia_T]

Brother Bob,

When you say this:


3. Also if so, Is it born with a corruptle seed or an incorruptleable.

Could you please explain what you mean by that?

 

[Claudia_T]

HP:

Claudia:
‘1. Does anyone think they can be sinless?


HP: Absolutely. Jesus commanded “go and sin no more.” If He commands it He will make a way IF we are willing to follow and avail ourselves moment by moment to His proffered help. :”There is therefore now no temptation taken you…..”


Now you REALLY believe we can be completely and totally sinless?

How do you figure that? Do you realize that to be completely sinless you must be exactly like Jesus?

I had no idea that you also think we are to be sinless.

Sinless means totally unselfish.

Let me ask you this... ok you think we CAN be sinless... is anyone sinless?


Im thinking right off the bat about Enoch...

 

[Claudia_T]

sometimes I wonder if there is a difference between wilfull sin and just sin...

like if we are doing all we can in love to serve God... and then there is sin as in measuring completely up to the life of Christ...

hmmmmmmmmmmmm Im wondering if the key is that we could be as sinless as Adam and Eve were before the fall...

but it wouldnt equal the Pattern (the Pattern being Jesus Christ)

 

[Brother Bob]

Brother Bob,

When you say this:


3. Also if so, Is it born with a corruptle seed or an incorruptleable.

Could you please explain what you mean by that? Claudia_T

1 Peter, chapter 1
22: Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:
23: Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

 

[Claudia_T]

I still dont know what that means..unless thats where you are getting the idea of being sinless?

 

[Brother Bob]

In the resurrection this corruptle body will put on incorruption and this mortal will put on immortality. Then will come to pass

the saying "oh death where is thy sting and oh grave where is thy victory for we will have a body that will be incorruptle and

not able to die any more, which will be a perfect body without sin.

There is a part of us that has already been born again of an incorruptle seed and if its incorruptle then it is perfect and born of

God and therefore cannot sin. I believe it to be the inner man and that the inner man has already put on the robe of righteous

and has been cleansed up by the blood of Jesus and raised from the mire of the clay, place upon a rock (Jesus) and raised to

walk a newness of life. I believe that is the part when Jesus said that which is born of God cannot sin. Jesus didn't put those

words in the scripture to take up space. There really is a part of man that is "born again of an incorruptle seed, by the word of

God" that cannot sin.

I don't care what anyone says, that is the scripture and is what Jesus said. At death, that part will go to be with Jesus in

Heaven because it is already cleaned up. The body must wait on its change and that will be in the resurrection.

If the same Spirit be in you that raised Christ from the dead, it shall also quicken your mortal bodies. Also means something

has already been "born again". Everything I have said is scripture, so they can deny all they want but it is the word of God. I

expect with all thats in me that when I die I will be as Paul "to be with Christ is far better". That is to be with Christ at my

death. I know its not my body for I will leave it with you, but my soul will take a heavely flight to be with the Lord until the

day God has set to redeem my body from the bondage of the Grave.

Please study and then ask me any question you like. peace,

 

[Brother Bob]

This seed is incorruptible, it cannot sin, it does not corrupt and it doesn't die.

I John 5
:10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself:
he that believeth not God hath made him a liar;
because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.
:11 And this is the record,
that God hath given to us eternal life,
and this life is in his Son.
:12 He that hath the Son hath life;
and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.
:13 These things have I written unto you
that believe on the name of the Son of God;
that ye may know that ye have eternal life,
and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

​

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Claudia: Now you REALLY believe we can be completely and totally sinless?

HP: Let’s first just start with the moment of salvation. Does Christ forgive us from all our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness, or are we just made ‘positionally’ free from sin and unrighteousness? I believe that ‘we’ are made new creatures, old things have passed away and behold all things are become new. We are given a clean slate and a pure heart, spotless as the driven snow, without sin and blameless before God. What do you think?

 

[Claudia_T]

HP: Let’s first just start with the moment of salvation. Does Christ forgive us from all our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness, or are we just made ‘positionally’ free from sin and unrighteousness? I believe that ‘we’ are made new creatures, old things have passed away and behold all things are become new. We are given a clean slate and a pure heart, spotless as the driven snow, without sin and blameless before God. What do you think?

so you are talking about instant sanctification then.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Claudia: so you are talking about instant sanctification then.

HP: Yes and no. Yes, we are purified ENTIRELY and instantaneously by faith, made holy at salvation. You would have to say in a sense we are sanctified, or purified and set apart for a holy use at salvation, yet just the same, subsequent to salvation there is clearly a process, at least in most cases I would assume, of succumbing to temptation, falling into condemnation, and having to repent and ask for forgiveness afresh. I would think that that this happens to most all new believers.

The life of the new believer is more often than not an ‘on again off again' relationship, due to the weakness of the flesh and an inability to fully understand the wiles of the enemy of our souls and the ingrained habits and proclivities of the flesh we have in the past fallen prey to.

I believe that God has provided those that continue to seek and walk humbly before Him with all their heart, a more stable and consistent walk to enjoy. I believe that it has been most often referred to as a state of entire sanctification, perfect love, etc. that has been the testimony of not only the saints but Scripture as well.

I have had the wonderful privilege of encountering more than a few individuals in my life that I believe beyond a shadow of a doubt that they have entered into and walk such a life before God, in consistent and constant communion with Him, that I believe it could be rightfully said of them that if they sin they sin so little it could be rightfully said of them that they do not sin. Sin could be said to be the absolute unordinary occurrence in their lives if at all, and then only under extreme temptation, and a consistent holy walk before the Lord the norm and usual pattern of their walk. Such a walk is not perfected in the flesh or apart from God, but rather with full dependence and reliance upon the strength to walk holy before God, just as Scripture promises those that diligently seek Him.

So in essence, yes every believer is sanctified at salvation in a sense, but there remains a rest for the people of God that can only be found in total or entire state of sanctification that is testified to and witnessed to the individual by a consistent and holy walk before God.

THIS IS THE GREAT NEED OF THE CHURCH TODAY! I cannot imagine a believer that loves God with his whole heart that would not have as a goal in life to walk such a life before God as He gives us strength. That is my hope and goal as a believer, to walk in a state of entire obedience, entire consecration, entire sanctification until he comes for us again. Is it not your desire as well?

 

[Claudia_T]

HP

Absolutely thats my desire! and that was a really wonderful post you just did..

Im just trying mostly right now to understand everybody's views on things when it comes to this subject.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Would to God we could set aside all the wrangling over terminology and just provoke one another in the spirit of entire consecration before the Lord! Can we make it our responsibility to pray one for another daily to see it come to fruition in each one of our lives, and that we be bound together in love and unity to serve the Lord with our whole hearts, minds and spirits in sanctification before Him? Oh Lord, may it be so!

I wonder how many would sign onto a prayer list, to acknowledge our need and desire for such a walk? Let Claudia be the first and Heavenly Pilgrim the second. Who else will join us in prayer for such a walk?

 

[Claudia_T]

Would to God we could set aside all the wrangling over terminology and just provoke one another in the spirit of entire consecration before the Lord! Can we make it our responsibility to pray one for another daily to see it come to fruition in each one of our lives, and that we be bound together in love and unity to serve the Lord with our whole hearts, minds and spirits in sanctification before Him? Oh Lord, may it be so!

I wonder how many would sign onto a prayer list, to acknowledge our need and desire for such a walk? Let Claudia be the first and Heavenly Pilgrim the second. Who else will join us in prayer for such a walk?

signing up
Claudia