Under Grace or Under Law?

[D28guy]

DHK,

You asked Brother Bob if he was Church of Christ. I got the impression you meant is that his denomination.

He responded that yes he was Church of Christ, but he just meant that he was part of Christs Church.

He is part of a group know as the "Old Regular Baptists". (click on his website link in each of his posts at the bottom)

I dont know if this is the best source of information, but this came up 1st when I did a search...

http://www.folklife.si.edu/resources/festival1997/baptists.htm

God bless,

Mike

 

[Claudia_T]

If we are truly submitted to God, we can resist the devil and the temptations that are set before us. Over and over we are told to submit, follow, continue...

But we are warned that if we do not abide in Him, we will be cut off and cast into the fire.

I think that is the key is to abide in Christ. When Jesus comes knocking at the door, He doesnt intend on just being a passing Guest.

 

[Brother Bob]

Well, that pretty well explains us as the Church of Christ.

http://www.folklife.si.edu/resources...7/baptists.htm

 

[Brother Bob]

And I John is the only book that declares itself to be written for the express purpose of assurance or 'knowing'. (I Jn. 5: 9-13)

Frankly, I think they have it right!

Ed

Strange you bring up this book:

John, chapter 2
1: My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
2: And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
3: And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4: He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
5: But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.

If we say we know Him and keep not His Commandments, is a liar and the truth is not in him.

Rom 7:7¶What shall we say then? [Is] the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

Jhn 5:14Afterward Jesus findeth him in the temple, and said unto him, Behold, thou art made whole: sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee.

Jhn 8:11She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.

Tts 2:1¶But speak thou the things which become sound doctrine: (if preaching repentance is not sound doctrine then Jesus told all us preachers wrong when He said preach "repent ye")

Frankly:
I think to say that sin "does not matter any more" is just plain false and bring on the soap and wash out thy mouth.

 

[Brother Bob]

You can make up hypothetical cases if you wish; but the fact remains that we sin because we want to; we enjoy it; we have a depraved nature; we choose it; it is in our nature to do so; etc. It is not in our nature to "accidentally sin." That is almost an impossibility, and not worth arguing about. We are sinners. Sinners sin. And when one dies in a state of sin, then what?__________________
DHK

If we do then we are in need of a Saviour.

 

[Brother Bob]

You better believe it. We are Spirit born children of the living God and completly secure in His love and eternally secure in His care. Because of that, at the place where I fellowship we have a party every Sunday, and usually every Saturday night.

Praise God!! \o/

Mike

I kinda figured you would come back with that answer knowing full well what kind of party I meant. Thats ok though, if you are only having those kind of parties then press on my friend.

Also, I see you live at Berea, KY. If I am not mistaken the Old Regular Baptist are the ones who started the Alice Lloyd College, which is not too far from you.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

DHK: All sin is willful. To say otherwise is foolish. We sin because we choose to sin. You can't excuse yoursel and blame the devil, society or anyone else. You choose to sin. All sin is wilful.

DHK: Yes, that is what I had meant to say--sin nature is not eradicated

HP: If man is born with a sin nature, and you call that sin, and you say that ALL sin is willful, how is the sin that one is born with willful? If one is born with a nature that 'causes' one to sin, why is that not sin by coersion or force? If one can do nothing other than what he does under the very same set of circumstances, how can you say that such is 'willful?'

 

[Brother Bob]

Quote:
Originally Posted by DHK
Please Bob don't take anything personal. i was writing as objectively as possible using the word "you" generically, meaning anyone, not you personally.
I use the sin of adultery as an example because I know that it is a horrid sin in the eyes of most here. Your definition of a sin unto death and my definition of the same are quite a bit different. Adultery is not a "sin unto death," and one cannot prove it to be so. Perhaps another thread should be started on "sin unto death" or even a bit broader as "types of sin." But adultery does not fall there. Adultery is the same as lying. It is a transgression of the law. They are both breaking the Ten Commandments. So what is the difference in God's sight? None. It is just as bad to die with an unconfessed lie as it is to die with unconfessed adultery or in the act of adultery. What is the difference?
My sins are paid for. They were paid for at the time of salvation. They are under the blood. The minute I put conditions on the work of Christ--like saying that the sin must be confessed before I die, then I take away from grace, and my faith turns into a religion of works. It is no more of grace but of works. One cannot impose conditions on the salvation that Christ provided without any conditions.

Well said, Preach on!

Ed

So far we been discussing if someone else died in the act of adultery would they go to Heaven and I believe both DHK and Ed have amen that.

Lets bring it a little closer home. Instead of someone else, say it was you or me that found theirselves committing adultery. Could you still go to church on Sunday and continue to worship God with your fellow members and still feel "saved"? How would you feel inside of yourself? I mean, salvation is between you and the Lord, so how would you feel? Saved or Unsaved?

I will answer for myself. I would not feel saved and would tell the church to remove my name and spend the rest of my life praying for God to forgive me. Now whether He would forgive me or not, I don't know being I put Him to an open shame, but I sure would try.

I tell you what I would not do and that is what this fellow Haggard did and that is to go on preaching and condemning people for adultery, while I was also guilty. I would not continue to remain as a saved member of that church for I would have my name removed and tell them why. But thats me! :godisgood:

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Brother Bob: I will answer for myself. I would not feel saved and would tell the church to remove my name and spend the rest of my life praying for God to forgive me. Now whether He would forgive me or not, I don't know being I put Him to an open shame, but I sure would try.

HP: What you have said here cuts right through the fog of the question, “Will one lose their salvation if they sin?” Our life is not over till it’s over. I believe you have taken the right approach by not sitting around trying to convince yourself of once saved always saved, but rather you have exemplified a spirit of humility before God and set yourself to carrying out His commanded condition for salvation and fellowship with Him by enacting repentance towards God and a confession and renunciation of your deeds.

I believe that the approach you set forth here is the only approach that will facilitate our safe landing on the other side.

 

[DHK]

So far we been discussing if someone else died in the act of adultery would they go to Heaven and I believe both DHK and Ed have amen that.

Lets bring it a little closer home. Instead of someone else, say it was you or me that found theirselves committing adultery. Could you still go to church on Sunday and continue to worship God with your fellow members and still feel "saved"? How would you feel inside of yourself? I mean, salvation is between you and the Lord, so how would you feel? Saved or Unsaved?

I would feel guilty, and in need of confession and repentance of that sin to the Lord, just as David did. There would be no difference. The man in 1Cor.5 was called a brother. He was disciplined out of the church because he was a brother who was in the act of gross immorality. Paul told the church not to keep company with those believers which were fornicators, and the such, no not even to eat with them that they would be ashamed of what they were doing. The object of excluding one from the fellowship of believers was to bring him to repentance. He did not lose his salvation. We find in 2Cor. that the same man was brought back into the church. He never lost his salvation. He repented and was admitted back into the church. There, you have a Biblical example of the very question you asked.

If you want a modern example of a widely known man, there is Jack Hyles who was found out to be carrying on an affair with his secretary. I don't know all the details, nor do I want to. I just know it happened. I also know he died. Is he in heaven today. I have no reason to believe he sin't.

 

[DHK]

HP: If man is born with a sin nature, and you call that sin, and you say that ALL sin is willful, how is the sin that one is born with willful? If one is born with a nature that 'causes' one to sin, why is that not sin by coersion or force? If one can do nothing other than what he does under the very same set of circumstances, how can you say that such is 'willful?'

I didn't write the Bible, but I certainly believe it. I think you are the one that has a problem with it.

Psalms 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.

 

[Diggin in da Word]

Did Jack Hyles continue in that adulterous affair even after being caught? Did he have other sins that were manifest? If so, you can have reason to believe that he is not in heaven.

 

[DHK]

Did Jack Hyles continue in that adulterous affair even after being caught? Did he have other sins that were manifest? If so, you can have reason to believe that he is not in heaven.

And this has been your problem all along. You think you have the perogative to judge the heart. I don't judge the heart of man. "The Lord knows them that are his." Even Godly men fall into sin. You also are capable of any sin under the sun whether it be murder or adultery. You have a sin nature, and that sin nature is not eradicated. The supposition has always been this: Since you are capable of sinning and do sin; if you were to die suddenly while sinning would you go to heaven? By your own theology you would not.
If I ask you "Do you sin" And you say, "No I never sn," then by your own admission, according to 1John 1:8,10 the truth is not in you and you make Christ a liar.

So which is it: Is Christ a liar; or will you go to Hell? You can't have it both ways.

 

[Claudia_T]

I didn't write the Bible, but I certainly believe it. I think you are the one that has a problem with it.

Psalms 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.

what do you do with this one?

Jms:4:17: Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.

it may be technically "sin" for any action which transgresses the law of God is sin... but it isnt held accountable to us unless we realize it is sin.

Acts:17:30: And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent

 

[DHK]

what do you do with this one?
Jms:4:17: Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.
it may be technically "sin" for any action which transgresses the law of God is sin... but it isnt held accountable to us unless we realize it is sin.

That is a definition of sin, and only makes my case stronger. If you are knowing that you are sinning and die all the while committing do you believe you will go to Hell? "To him it is sin" He knows it is sin.

 

[DHK]

I should close this thread due to its length.
Feel free to start another one if you so desire (even though this is the second one on this topic)

But before I do, let me make this one observation.
Christ died for all our sins on the cross.
If we truly believe that, then to believe that any one sin (unconfessed or not) would keep one out of heaven, is to take away from the sufficiency of the blood of Christ and turns salvation by grace into salvation by works. Salvation is all of God; it is all of grace. There is nothing that we can do; not even confess an unconfessed sin. That is a work of man, and would turn grace into works destroying what Christ did on the cross.

Romans 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.