Under Grace or Under Law?

[Claudia_T]

Romans 7:
14: For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
15: For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
16: If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
17: Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
18: For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
19: For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
20: Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
21: I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
22: For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
23: But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24: O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
25: I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

 

[Claudia_T]

well it goes on to say in Romans 8 all about now yielding our flesh to unrighteousness anymore... but instead to yield our members to righteousness
13: For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

that is how he discovered Jesus would deliver him from this "body of sin"...


because mentally he had assented to the truth, that the law was good and holy but he just didnt know how to perform it...

 

[Brother Bob]

to me Romans 7 is talking about an unconverted man. One who knows what is right but doesnt know how to do it.
__________________

Is is Paul speaking, you don't think he was saved?

I am not being defensive. I realize people think I am being but I am not. I am just debating and if you think it is defensive I am sorry to you and all.

Please tell me why you think it is too defensive? I really do not understand. You are not the first who thinks so, but I don't really know why.

I think Amy thought I was defensive but I didn't mean to be.

I think Helen thought I was defensive but I didn't mean to be.

I only answered you all with scriptures.

 

[Citizen]

We talked on another thread about being Under the Law or Under Grace. I would like to see if we can come to some sort of an understanding on this...

1. Does anyone think they can be sinless?

2. Do we have to and can we keep the Law of God?

3. Does being Under Grace null out the Law of God?


What is YOUR interpretation of Romans Chapter 6 here?


Romans 6:
6: Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7: For he that is dead is freed from sin.
8: Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
9: Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
10: For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
11: Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
12: Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
13: Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
14: For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
15: What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
16: Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
17: But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
18: Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

I think you raise some valid points here. I for one, am not a member of God's Mafia. (Once you get in, you can never leave!)

I don't believe that people can be saved yet continue in their sin with token nods to God in the process.

 

[Claudia_T]

Bob,

Its just that when I was just making a statement about how I believe you answered in a way that seemed defensive like this:


That doesnt mean you wont be able to sin. Of course you will. Thats why we have an Advocate.__________________
I never in no way said we could not sin but Jesus said that which is born of God cannot sin.

---but thats ok Bob, maybe I was just too sensitive

 

[Claudia_T]

Citizen,

God's Mafia. (Once you get in, you can never leave!)


thats funny, I will have to remember that one!

 

[Brother Bob]

....................

 

[Claudia_T]

I think Paul in Romans 7 wasnt converted yet.

Just like it talks about in Romans 7 here:


1: Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?
2: For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband.
3: So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.
4: Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

the woman's husband is her flesh that she is "married to" but she has to consent to die and marry Jesus instead, then He will live in her by the Spirit.

But till that happens she is unconverted

 

[Brother Bob]

Paul was writing an epistle to the Church at Rome and you don't believe he was saved yet?
Why on earth would the word of God be written by someone who was of the world?

Romans
1: Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God,

 

[Claudia_T]

Paul was writing an epistle to the Church at Rome and you don't believe he was saved yet?
Why on earth would the word of God be written by someone who was of the world?

Im talking about someone who is unconverted like Nicodemus


John 3:
3: Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
4: Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
5: Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
9: Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?
10: Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?


Nicodemus was supposed to be a teacher but he wasnt converted.

 

[Claudia_T]

and I dont know if Paul was converted when he wrote Romans 7 but for sure he was talking about the unconverted state.

He couldve been already converted by then but just relating his prior experience

 

[Brother Bob]

I am sorry Claudia but you are wrong. He was talking about what kind of man he was while he was saved. He was talking about the warfare between the inner and outward man. Thank God that he that is within you is stronger than he that is in the world. Seems like that scripture alone would tell everyone there is a inner man borned again and an outward man who is kept by the inward man. One who still commits sin and receives chastisement for it. The thorn in the flesh that Paul wanted removed.

 

[Claudia_T]

I am sorry Claudia but you are wrong. He was talking about what kind of man he was while he was saved. He was talking about the warfare between the inner and outward man. Thank God that he that is within you is stronger than he that is in the world. Seems like that scripture alone would tell everyone there is a inner man borned again and an outward man who is kept by the inward man. One who still commits sin and receives chastisement for it. The thorn in the flesh that Paul wanted removed.

Bob why would Paul be asking God to remove something that couldnt possibly be removed?

 

[Brother Bob]

Bob why would Paul be asking God to remove something that couldnt possibly be removed?__________________

Don't you desire to be perfect and serve God without a weakness. Well, so did Paul.

Well, nap time for the old man but will be back later Claudia, ok?

 

[Claudia_T]

ok Bob, have a good nap! Look forward to talking to you some more.

 

[DHK]

Don't you desire to be perfect and serve God without a weakness. Well, so did Paul.

Paul desired perfection, but he never attained such a state until death.

 

[Brother Bob]

Paul only spoke of the weakness and sinful flesh but praised the inner part. He indeed never received perfection to the outward man and is still waiting.

Rom 7:18For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but [how] to perform that which is good I find not.

Rom 7:22For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

Rom 7:25I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

 

[DHK]

Rom 7:22For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

Rom 7:25I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Please give me your take on how you differntiate between the mind and the flesh in verse 25.

 

[Brother Bob]

There is the carnal mind which is the flesh and there is the spiritual mind which is of the inner man where Christ dwells.

2Pe 2:9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:

2Pe 2:10 But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous [are they], selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities.

Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Rom 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded [is] death; but to be spiritually minded [is] life and peace.

Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Rom 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

 

[DHK]

There is the carnal mind which is the flesh and there is the spiritual mind which is of the inner man where Christ dwells.

But Bob, The Lord God Almighty created the human body with only one mind. That is why the Scriptures say:
"A double minded man is unstable in all his ways."