United Methodist Baptism Statement

[Michael Wrenn]

The following baptism statement, adopted by the UMC in the mid-90's, was one of the main reasons I left the UMC where I was a member for a while and had actually started the process for entering the ministry.

The view of baptism contained in this statement is abhorrent to me -- a complete fabrication and false doctrine concerning baptism. Other Wesleyan denominations do not hold to this view of baptism -- the Church of the Nazarene, and Congregational Methodists, for example.

Here it is: (Removed temporarily)

 

[David Lamb]

Michael, I tried the link, but there seems to be something wrong with it. It took me to a site called "Blackbaud Internet Solutions". Even if I delete everything after "org", just leaving www.kintera.org it still takes me to the "Blackbaud" site.

 

[Michael Wrenn]

Michael, I tried the link, but there seems to be something wrong with it. It took me to a site called "Blackbaud Internet Solutions". Even if I delete everything after "org", just leaving www.kintera.org it still takes me to the "Blackbaud" site.

Wow, that's weird; it did me, too. But the first time I tried it, it took me to the statement. Guess I'd better remove it.

 

[Michael Wrenn]

I'll try again: http://www.kintera.org/atf/cf/{3482e846-598f-460a-b9a7-386734470eda}/BWASWITHINDEX&INTRO.PDF

 

[David Lamb]

Wow, that's weird; it did me, too. But the first time I tried it, it took me to the statement. Guess I'd better remove it.

Don't worry, Michael - I wasn't complaining, just puzzled. I'll try your second link later. Thanks!

 

[glfredrick]

United Methodists believe that these sign-acts are special means of grace. The ritual action of a sacrament does not merely point to God’s presence in the world, but also participates in it and becomes a vehicle for conveying that reality. God’s presence in the sacraments is real, but it must be accepted by human faith if it is to transform human lives. The sacraments do not convey grace either magically or irrevocably, but they are powerful channels through which God has chosen to make grace available to us.

This sort of says it all... It is a "sacrament" by which God's grace is given to humans in a syncretistic manner.

I'm SO glad I left the UMC years ago... They are seriously adrift in their theology and doctrines and it shows in their churches.

For the record, it was a Methodist minister who caused me to leave the faith I held in my early life. He was married to a Buddhist wife. He was not a believer in Christ in the biblical sense, but he was a (his words) "very spiritual man who saw Christ as our great example." When pressed with the realities of life, he could not offer help to one who was drowning in the sorrow of loosing a child. My mistake was in thinking that he represented all of Christiandom. He represented none of it, in fact, something I only learned later when God caused me to hear the true gospel according to the Scriptures.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

1. Contemporary United Methodism is attempting to recover and revitalize its understanding of baptism. To do this, we must look to our heritage as Methodists and Evangelical United Brethren and, indeed, to the foundations of Christian Tradition.

They will look anywhere except at the Bible. :tear:

Steve

 

[Michael Wrenn]

Another thing that bothers me about the UMC is this: Although they continue as a denomination to hold the line against homosexual ordination and marriage (due to the influence of the Southern churches, I believe), they are still willing to enter into full communion with denominations which haven't held the line -- the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America (ELCA), and The Episcopal Church. I think the only reason they still affirm the traditional view is because they know if they changed that, that they would lose most of the Southern churches and thereby the denomination.

The ELCA, TEC, and PCUSA have gone over to the dark side; only the UMC remains "officially" committed to traditional values. But their willingness to unite with essentially apostate denominations speaks volumes.

 

[billwald]

That is a very orthodox description of baptism and one of the reasons why it didn't bother me to stop meeting with Baptists. Baptism is a sacrament.

 

[glfredrick]

The purpose of a "Sacrament" is to bestow "efficacious signs of grace". I doubt that Methodist baptism adds much of God's grace as that is God's to add, not ours to manipulate through some ceremony.

 

[Michael Wrenn]

That is a very orthodox description of baptism and one of the reasons why it didn't bother me to stop meeting with Baptists. Baptism is a sacrament.

Orthodox according to whom? Those whose ancestors adopted a post-scriptural practice and whose descendants persecuted anabaptists almost out of existence?

Sacramentalists confuse the physical with the spiritual, just as many in Jesus's day did, not being able to distinguish between the two.

 

[billwald]

According to every Christian Church for the last 1700 or so years.

 

[Michael Wrenn]

According to every Christian Church for the last 1700 or so years.

But not the first 300 years, right? Only after Constantine amalgamated Roman state-ism and paganism with a veneer of Christianity?

Oh, all right; I don't want to start an argument, but I couldn't resist.

I believe God can and does work through the physical, but not automatically, or in every instance, and certainly not by some formula that man speaks which produces God's act. The Spirit bloweth where it listeth, not where man listeth that it should blow!

Anyway, I believe I can have a discussion with you without it deteriorating into charges of being a liar and an apostate.

 

[billwald]

There is no evidence concerning first couple hundred years so I have an opinion but no data.

 

[glfredrick]

There is no evidence concerning first couple hundred years so I have an opinion but no data.

Huh?

There are significant writings from the post-apostolic era, several of which deal with baptism.

 

[DaChaser1]

That is a very orthodox description of baptism and one of the reasons why it didn't bother me to stop meeting with Baptists. Baptism is a sacrament.

Baptists view that water baptism is an ordinace that Jesus gave unto the church, as it is NOT Graced as a sacrament in the sense that the RCC would use that term!

 

[Walter]

Baptists view that water baptism is an ordinace that Jesus gave unto the church, as it is NOT Graced as a sacrament in the sense that the RCC would use that term!

Or the Lutherans, Methodists, Presbyterians, Orthodox, Anglicans, etc., etc.