Universal Confession = Universal Salvation?

[Jacinth]

Brothers and Sisters in Christ,

I present before you a simple syllogism, the conclusion of which neccessarily follows from the premises. My challenge to those who are so willing to accept it is to put forth a case for why either of the premises ought to be rejected.

Premise 1: All human beings who confess (Greek: homologeo) the Lordship of Christ will be saved (Romans 10:9).

Premise 2: Every human being will confess (Greek: exomologeo) the Lordship of Christ (Philippians 2:11).

Conclusion: Every human being will be saved.

Is there a flaw in these premises? Am I equivocating on the word "confess"?

I look forward to your responses.

In Christ,

J

 

[BobRyan]

Heb 9 "It is appointed unto man ONCE to die and THEN comes the judgment"

James 2 "The devils believe and tremble"

your quote from Phil 2 is relative to the same event described in Jude where "God convicts the ungodly of all their ungodly deeds" -- an event that takes place in Rev 20 after the literal 1000 years - at the great white throne.

The books are opened - the dead are judged according to their deeds and thrown into the lake of fire.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Jacinth]

Hi Bob,

Heb 9 "It is appointed unto man ONCE to die and THEN comes the judgment"

Indeed. How does the fact of post-mortem judgment preclude a universal confession unto salvation?

James 2 "The devils believe and tremble"

The sort of belief in view in this verse is irrelevant to the sort of confession in view in Philippians 2:11, for the latter is done unto the glory of God.

your quote from Phil 2 is relative to the same event described in Jude where "God convicts the ungodly of all their ungodly deeds" -- an event that takes place in Rev 20 after the literal 1000 years - at the great white throne.

The books are opened - the dead are judged according to their deeds and thrown into the lake of fire.

Let's take a closer look.


Phl 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of [things] in heaven, and [things] in earth, and [things] under the earth;
Phl 2:11 And [that] every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ [is] Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

The Isaiah passage that Paul alludes to is describing this universal confession in the context of salvation, as is evident by considering the parallel structure of the text:


Isa 45:22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I [am] God, and [there is] none else.
Isa 45:23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth [in] righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.

Bowing to Christ and confessing His Lordship is a salvific event!

 

[BobRyan]

Isa 45:22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I [am] God, and [there is] none else.
Isa 45:23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth [in] righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.

Bowing to Christ and confessing His Lordship is a salvific event!

Well I certainly agree with you - that if one takes that view of Isaiah - it is Universalism.

I don't see it that way. Isaiah is stating two things.

1. God is the only God, and the only Savior and He is calling ALL of humanity to HIM salvation.

2. God is stating that in the end ALL will bow the knee to Him - the righteous will cast their crowns at His feet -- the wicked will be convicted "of all their ungodly deeds" and confess that God was right and they are wrong. But this is not "conversion" rather it is admitting to the shear force of the truth in spite of themselves.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Jacinth]

Hi Bob,

Isaiah is stating two things.

1. God is the only God, and the only Savior and He is calling ALL of humanity to HIM salvation.

2. God is stating that in the end ALL will bow the knee to Him - the righteous will cast their crowns at His feet -- the wicked will be convicted "of all their ungodly deeds" and confess that God was right and they are wrong. But this is not "conversion" rather it is admitting to the shear force of the truth in spite of themselves.

1. Agreed.

2. I agree with everything you wrote above, save for the "but this is not conversion" part. I have stated one main reason for disagreeing, but you have not addressed it. Let me slightly expound on what I'd like you to address.

“Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I [am] God, and [there is] none else. I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth [in] righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear."

This is a textbook example of a synonymous parallelism. "All the ends of the earth" corresponds to "every knee/tongue" and salvation corresponds to bowing to and confessing the Lordship of Christ.

Isa 45:25 In the LORD shall all the seed of Israel be justified, and shall glory.

Indeed, salvation is in view!

 

[donnA]

Hi Bob,



1. Agreed.

2. I agree with everything you wrote above, save for the "but this is not conversion" part. I have stated one main reason for disagreeing, but you have not addressed it. Let me slightly expound on what I'd like you to address.

“Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I [am] God, and [there is] none else. I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth [in] righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear."

This is a textbook example of a synonymous parallelism. "All the ends of the earth" corresponds to "every knee/tongue" and salvation corresponds to bowing to and confessing the Lordship of Christ.

Isa 45:25 In the LORD shall all the seed of Israel be justified, and shall glory.

Indeed, salvation is in view!

So what your saying is you think everyone is going to heaven, everyone will be saved?
Every knee bowing every tongue confessing is not salvation of everyone. Mnay will will never beleive and accept who Jesus is until the end, when He returns. At that point it's too late for salvation, salvation is on faith, not on sight. These people will be at the judgement before they admit Jesus really was who we all said He was.

 

[Brother Bob]

Brothers and Sisters in Christ,

I present before you a simple syllogism, the conclusion of which neccessarily follows from the premises. My challenge to those who are so willing to accept it is to put forth a case for why either of the premises ought to be rejected.

Premise 1: All human beings who confess (Greek: homologeo) the Lordship of Christ will be saved (Romans 10:9).

I agree

Premise 2: Every human being will confess (Greek: exomologeo) the Lordship of Christ (Philippians 2:11).

This is not where ever human being will confess, but where they should confess. The following is where they all will confess, but not be saved.

Rom 14:11For it is written, [As] I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.

Conclusion: Every human being will be saved.

Only those who confess on this side of the grave and the resurrection, will be saved. Those in Rom 14:11 will be on the other side of the resurrection where there will be no repentance. They will confess and bow their knee to no avail.

Is there a flaw in these premises? Am I equivocating on the word "confess"?

I look forward to your responses.

In Christ,

J

“Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I [am] God, and [there is] none else. I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth [in] righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear."

The words that I speak, shall judge you in the last day.

Here is mine.

BBob,

 

[BobRyan]

Hi Bob,

1. Agreed.

2. I agree with everything you wrote above, save for the "but this is not conversion" part. I have stated one main reason for disagreeing, but you have not addressed it. Let me slightly expound on what I'd like you to address.

“Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I [am] God, and [there is] none else. I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth [in] righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear."

This is a textbook example of a synonymous parallelism. "All the ends of the earth" corresponds to "every knee/tongue" and salvation corresponds to bowing to and confessing the Lordship of Christ.

Isa 45:25 In the LORD shall all the seed of Israel be justified, and shall glory.

Indeed, salvation is in view!

As I stated - this includes both the saved and the unsaved - it does not insist that all who bow must be saved.

in Matt 7 we are told that NARROW is the way to eternal life and FEW there are that find it --

There is no question that FEW are saved and the MANY are lost according to Matt 7.

There is no question that ALL of them will sooner or later bow the knee to Christ -- either those who are standing around the Holy City on the outside in Rev 20 that are "convicted of all their ungodly deeds" or those who are in the inside who "cast their crowns at Jesus' feet". Still ALL will admit to the truth.

In THIS life we have "if you confess your sins he is faithful and just to FORGIVE your sins" 1John 1:9.

In the NEXT life we have "it is appointed unto man ONCE to die and THEN comes the judgment" Heb 9 end of chapter.
In the NEXT life we have "we must ALL stand before the judgment seat of Christ so that EACH ONE may be recompessed for his deeds whether they be good or EVIL" 2Cor 5.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Jacinth]

Hi donnA,

So what your saying is you think everyone is going to heaven, everyone will be saved?

I think that Philippians 2:11 might indeed be teaching this, yes.

Every knee bowing every tongue confessing is not salvation of everyone.

Can you address my reason for suggesting otherwise?

Mnay will will never beleive and accept who Jesus is until the end, when He returns. At that point it's too late for salvation, salvation is on faith, not on sight.

What makes you think that it is no longer a matter of faith at that point? Paul saw the risen Jesus and still was able to believe, right? Besides, faith is simply trusting in and surrending to God. Why would that be impossible after death?

 

[Jacinth]

Brother Bob,

Premise 2: Every human being will confess (Greek: exomologeo) the Lordship of Christ (Philippians 2:11).

This is not where ever human being will confess, but where they should confess.

What do you mean by "should confess"?

The following is where they all will confess, but not be saved.

Rom 14:11For it is written, [As] I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.

Why do you say that salvation is not in view here?

Only those who confess on this side of the grave and the resurrection, will be saved. Those in Rom 14:11 will be on the other side of the resurrection where there will be no repentance. They will confess and bow their knee to no avail.

But what of that argument I have put forth? TYhe Isaiah passage that Paul alludes to is clearly talking about salvation. I'd like to see that addressed.

 

[Jacinth]

BobRyan,

As I stated - this includes both the saved and the unsaved - it does not insist that all who bow must be saved.

Your statement does not take into account the salvific context of Isaiah 45.

In THIS life we have "if you confess your sins he is faithful and just to FORGIVE your sins" 1John 1:9.

This verse does not include the qualifier you are attaching to it. Neither, for that matter, does Romans 10:9 give any indication that this truth is not applicable after death.

In the NEXT life we have "it is appointed unto man ONCE to die and THEN comes the judgment" Heb 9 end of chapter.

Again I ask, how does the fact of post-mortem judgment preclude a universal confession unto salvation?

In the NEXT life we have "we must ALL stand before the judgment seat of Christ so that EACH ONE may be recompessed for his deeds whether they be good or EVIL" 2Cor 5.

Agreed.

 

[donnA]

You what your saying goes against recognized christian doctrines. God isn't going to reveal some new teaching from scripture thats never been seen, understood, known about or taught before.

 

[Jacinth]

You what your saying goes against recognized christian doctrines. God isn't going to reveal some new teaching from scripture thats never been seen, understood, known about or taught before.

There is nothing new about the doctrine of Universal Salvation. It goes way back. But if you do not want to discuss it, that's fine. Thanks for stopping by.

 

[Brother Bob]

Brother Bob,



What do you mean by "should confess"?

Confess their sins and repent and be born again, on this side of the grave.

Why do you say that salvation is not in view here?

Because when the resurrection comes, mercy will cease and justice will take place. They will run and cry for the rocks and the mountains to fall on them and hide them from the face of Him that sits on the throne.



But what of that argument I have put forth? TYhe Isaiah passage that Paul alludes to is clearly talking about salvation. I'd like to see that addressed.

Isa 45:23I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth [in] righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.

Jhn 12:48He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

Rev 20:12And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is [the book] of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

I see it as His words are not in vain, but will accomplish wherein He chooses to send it, and it is to go into the whole world and all men will be judged by His word, whether it be good or bad.

BBob

 

[donnA]

There is nothing new about the doctrine of Universal Salvation. It goes way back. But if you do not want to discuss it, that's fine. Thanks for stopping by.

What I mean by new is it's not in the bible.

 

[Jacinth]

Brother Bob,

Isa 45:23I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth [in] righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.

Jhn 12:48He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

Rev 20:12And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is [the book] of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

I see it as His words are not in vain, but will accomplish wherein He chooses to send it, and it is to go into the whole world and all men will be judged by His word, whether it be good or bad.

I agree, but there is more to it, and I've laid down a case for why. Could you please address my case?

 

[Jacinth]

What I mean by new is it's not in the bible.

That's your position. I'm here to discuss the verses that I consider to be possible evidence that Universal Salvation is indeed taught in the Bible. I have given one peice of evidence already. Would you like to address it?

 

[Brother Bob]

Brother Bob,



I agree, but there is more to it, and I've laid down a case for why. Could you please address my case?

Let me try one more time:

Phl 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of [things] in heaven, and [things] in earth, and [things] under the earth;
Phl 2:11 And [that] every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ [is] Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

The Isaiah passage that Paul alludes to is describing this universal confession in the context of salvation, as is evident by considering the parallel structure of the text:

I do not see this as a universal confession, but where all men should confess, we know they do not. Also, scripture teaches us they do not.
Jhn 5:28Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
Jhn 5:29And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.


Isa 45:22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I [am] God, and [there is] none else.
Isa 45:23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth [in] righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.
I see here the word going out and to some it is salvation and to others it is condemnation.

Jam 1:23For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:

Jam 1:24For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.

Then there is the doer:

Jam 1:25But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth [therein], he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.

They both hear the same word, but one is a doer and the other is not. The word went out to either save or condemn. There is a little thing called "belief" on our part, that must take place.

One is saved, the other lost.

I tried to address what you asked, I hope I did, but not sure. Sometimes its hard to see the exact point a brother is making, and I am not of the brightest on here.

Bowing to Christ and confessing His Lordship is a salvific event!

Even the soldier that pierced Him in the side, confessed and that was just a sample of what the end will be like.

Not after Mercy ceases it is not, for they all shall confess He is the Christ but to some He will say, depart for I never knew you. Everyone will confess He is the Christ in the end, for there will be no denying it when He comes in the cloud of Glory.

BBob,

 

[donnA]

That's your position. I'm here to discuss the verses that I consider to be possible evidence that Universal Salvation is indeed taught in the Bible. I have given one peice of evidence already. Would you like to address it?

I thought I had, let me give it another try,

1. MISINTERPETATION

 

[Jacinth]

Brother Bob,

I do not see this as a universal confession...

So every tongue/knee is not a reference to everyone? Why do you say that?

...but where all men should confess, we know they do not.

I'm not sure what you're saying here.

Also, scripture teaches us they do not.
Jhn 5:28Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
Jhn 5:29And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

I fail to see how damnation is at odds with eventual salvation.

Isa 45:22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I [am] God, and [there is] none else.
Isa 45:23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth [in] righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.
I see here the word going out and to some it is salvation and to others it is condemnation.

Where do you see anything about condemnation in this passage? To the contrary, salvation is in view as I've already shown. Why, according to your reading, does Isaiah mention salvation and confession in the same breath?

Jam 1:23For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:

Jam 1:24For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.

Then there is the doer:

Jam 1:25But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth [therein], he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.

They both hear the same word, but one is a doer and the other is not. The word went out to either save or condemn.There is a little thing called "belief" on our part, that must take place.

I agree, but how is any of this at odds with a final and universal confession?

One is saved, the other lost.

Lost forever?