USA's Protestant Minority (soon)

[church mouse guy]

Glad that you know who Gendron is! The doctrine of justification is different between Protestant and Catholic.

Of course, there is some oversimplification in any short list or outline. If you have time, discuss the details of where the doctrines are not as opposed as Gendron says that they are.

 

[mioque]

"The doctrine of justification is different between Protestant and Catholic."
''
Usually yes.
Some of the more umm.. peculiar branches on the libiral side of the Protestant Faith have doctrines of justification that come close the stereotypical Catholic one.
Some Catholic schools of thought (Jansensism comes to mind) have been known to formulate a doctrine of Salvation that comes extremely close to the Protestant ideal.

"If you have time, discuss the details of where the doctrines are not as opposed as Gendron says that they are. "
''
I'll try.

 

[ituttut]

Originally posted by church mouse guy:
This Mike Gendron who listed the differences between Protestants and Catholics that I posted above, Lady Eagle and everyone else, also made this statement:

"Know Doctrine--Know Division
No Doctrine--No Division"

I agree that God is a God of divsion, so lots of us agree.

 

[ituttut]

A few question’s to “church mouse guy”, and anyone, on the Catholic church and the Evangelicals.

Is it your position, and/or Mike Gendron’s view (if he reveals this) that doctrine will save one?

I know some Catholic’s that believe on the name of the Lord Jesus Christ. Their doctrine is not the same as we Baptist (even ours differ), and the different Protestant denominations don’t have the same doctrine. Also, aren’t there other churches outside of those mentioned that hold different doctrines, and are saved? Don’t some of the denominations hold more doctrine of the “mother church” than others? A comparison would have to be made on a case-to-case basis. If the “core” in all the churches is believe on the name of the Lord Jesus Christ (in our hearts) we will be saved, would you say those that believe are saved, or just some that believe as we?

If Mr. Gendron is judging the Catholics, then to be fair, does he judge all the denominations, as there is no unity in the doctrines?

If He is saying all Evangelicals are right and the Catholic is wrong, do you know his reasoning, or the impression he leaves?

Thanks,
Christian faith, ituttut

 

[church mouse guy]

Catholicism is what is called a merit theology. It is based upon works and performance of duties to the Catholic church. We are dealing with only one set of doctrines with the Catholic Church since the Vatican determines Catholic doctrine and those who do not believe or support Vatican doctrines are not in good standing.

As for the variations among Protestants, those deal with secondary issues such as church government and not main issues such as Salvation by Grace, for example. However, in order to narrow the discussion, I would suggest respectfully that the discussion of Protestants be limited to Evangelicals since other Protestant denominations are fading.

 

[mioque]

CMG
"I would suggest respectfully that the discussion of Protestants be limited to Evangelicals since other Protestant denominations are fading. "
''
You're US bias is showing. In my country for instance there are a number of anti-evangelical Calvinist churches of significant size hat are certainly not fading. I did however see some clear signs of what you certainly would see as fading among some Evangelical churches in my country.
But I get your basic point and I agree.

"Catholicism is what is called a merit theology."
''
A better distinction might be the following(Gendron like simplification coming up).
Protestants believe in irresistable Grace. God chooses you (or you choose Jezus depending on the individual denomination) and in an instant you are possibly a changed but in any case a saved man. Afterwards you are probably (hopefully) going to work on being a better person, but that is not directly tied to your salvation. Changing your life for the better is a byproduct of your salvation.
Catholics believe in process theology. You choose Jezus (or for some God chooses them) and you start working towards becoming a both a better and a saved person at the same time.
Salvation is a proces that is done by God, but your coöperation in that proces is a vital part of it. And leading a better life is a full part of it.

 

[mioque]

"We are dealing with only one set of doctrines with the Catholic Church since the Vatican determines Catholic doctrine and those who do not believe or support Vatican doctrines are not in good standing."
''
Certainly not. For 2 reasons. 1. The range of doctrine is much larger in the Catholic Church than in any conservative Evangelical church.
2. Disagreeing with the hierarchy while remaining in good standing is part of the sport of being a good Catholic Christian.
The theological gap between an conservative Franciscan monk and a conservative Montfortan monk is larger than that between a conservative Lutheran pastor and a conservative Calvinist pastor.
We probably want to stick to conservative Catholicism for this discussion so that we at least have some basis for discussion.

 

[church mouse guy]

It doesn't matter that Catholics do not adhere to official doctrine. When one looks at the RCC, one is confronted with an official doctrine. It is the official doctrine that has shown little change since the Protestant Reformation. It was only in my lifetime that the RCC decided to conduct Mass in the language of the local country.

 

[mioque]

"It was only in my lifetime that the RCC decided to conduct Mass in the language of the local country. "
''
And that's a dramatical change for a liturgy heavy church like the RCC.

"When one looks at the RCC, one is confronted with an official doctrine"
''
An official doctrine that is compared to that of any good Protestant Evangelical church vaguely defined and always is somewhat in a state of flux.

"It doesn't matter that Catholics do not adhere to official doctrine."
''
Not adhering is such an ugly expression. Being on a campaign to improve it is (at times) much more fitting.

 

[church mouse guy]

"An official doctrine that is compared to that of any good Protestant Evangelical church vaguely defined and always is somewhat in a state of flux," writes our friend Mioque.

I would suggest that the RCC does not have a vaguely defined doctrine. That is the real problem. Their doctrine is written in concrete. There have been very few changes since the Reformation, and those all seem to be for the worse as they adopted doctrines such as the immaculate conception of the Virgin Mary and the bodily ascension of the Virgin Mary into Heaven.

The RCC does not even seem able to consider allowing priests to marry and defrocking the historic worldwide lavender mafia (the homosexual priests).

 

[mioque]

CMG
"Their doctrine is written in concrete. There have been very few changes since the Reformation,"
''
In the last 150 years there have been 3 major doctrinal shifts (Vaticanum I, the reforms of Pius X and Vaticanum II). That's not even counting Pius XII going Ellen White on Catholicism in 1950 and proclaiming that Mary's physical ascension into Heaven truly happened.
And most Vatican watchers (including your friend) expect more is on the way relatively shortly.

 

[rsr]

And most Vatican watchers (including your friend) expect more is on the way relatively shortly.

I tend to agree. The growth of the church in Africa, Asia and Latin America is tilting the center of gravity away from Europe and North America, and I expect that to be recognized soon, if not with the selection of the next pope, then after that.

There's also the "protestantization" of the American church, in which the laity is no longer so enthralled by the hierarchical organization; in any case, the number of priests has declined so rapidly that there often is no alternative to increased lay leadership.

 

[church mouse guy]

Let's look at the doctrine of justification. Dr. John Ankerberg and Dr. John Weldon have this to say in an article What Does the Roman Catholic Church Teach About the Doctrine of Justification?: "...In essence, the Reformed Protestant position is that a person, once justified, can never lose that justification. Why? Because the justification depends solely upon Christ’s merits and not anything in themselves.

"But this is the very reason why Rome teaches that a person’s justification is not secure. Because it does depend upon what a person does, it may, in fact, be lost by what a person fails to do. Catholicism, therefore, teaches that the commission of mortal sin causes the person’s justification to be cancelled or lost. Thus, once a person’s justification is lost, the sacrament of penance, which involves confession, absolution and satisfaction, must be undertaken in order to restore justification."

From the Catholic Council of Trent:

Thus, in the section "Canons Concerning Justification," we read e.g.:

Canon 9: If anyone says that the sinner is justified by faith alone, meaning that nothing else is required to cooperate in order to obtain the grace of justification… let him be anathema.

Canon 11: If anyone says that men are justified either by the sole imputation of the justice of Christ or by the sole remission of sins, to the exclusion of the grace and the charity which is poured forth in their hearts by the Holy Ghost and remains in them [i.e., the Catholic view of infused justification], or also that the grace by which we are justified is only the good will of God, let him be anathema.

Canon 12: If anyone says that justifying faith is nothing more than confidence in divine mercy, which remits sins for Christ’s sake, or that it is this confidence alone that justifies us, let him be anathema.

Not surprisingly, Trent also decreed that good works increase our justification. For example:

Canon 24: If anyone says that the justice received [i.e., justification] is not preserved and also not increased before God through good works, but that those works are merely the fruits and signs of justification obtained, but not the cause of its increase, let him be anathema.

The Council closed with:

Canon 33: If anyone says that the Catholic doctrine of justification as set forth by the Holy Council and the present decree, derogates in some respect from the glory of God or the merits of our Lord Jesus Christ... let him be anathema.

Ankerberg Theological Research Institute articles on Roman Catholicism

 

[mioque]

"The RCC does not even seem able to consider allowing priests to marry"
"
I foresee a change in that department with the next big reform sweeping through.

"and defrocking the historic worldwide lavender mafia (the homosexual priests). "
''
If that would happen I would be very much surprised.

And yes I agree with everything rsr said. I see much of the same going on in my neck of the woods. Most important beneficial effects? Years before the rapescandal surfaced in the USA, actions by influential participating laymembers in the Dutch Catholic Church had already put safeguards in place that help chase down pervert priests. Also many serious conservative laymembers of the Dutch RCC are nowadays as much into Biblestudy as Evangelical Christians.

"Dr. John Ankerberg and Dr. John Weldon"
""
And how does this article differ from what I've been saying?
And yes Ankerberg is just like Gendron.

 

[ituttut]

Originally posted by church mouse guy:
Catholicism is what is called a merit theology. It is based upon works and performance of duties to the Catholic church. We are dealing with only one set of doctrines with the Catholic Church since the Vatican determines Catholic doctrine and those who do not believe or support Vatican doctrines are not in good standing.

As for the variations among Protestants, those deal with secondary issues such as church government and not main issues such as Salvation by Grace, for example. However, in order to narrow the discussion, I would suggest respectfully that the discussion of Protestants be limited to Evangelicals since other Protestant denominations are fading.

Hi cmguy. Again, will doctrine save anyone?
If a Catholic believes that by believing on the name of the Lord Jesus Christ for their salvation, do you think they will be saved? Regardless of their other beliefs.

Do you know if the writer you refer to is making a judgment on the Catholic salvation, or is He only showing differences in doctrine?

 

[church mouse guy]

Hi, Ituttut, you asked if doctrine saves anyone? No, Jesus saves. However, if your doctrine is Hindu, then it is not a correct doctrine. Doctrine should reflect "the glorious gospel of the blessed God" (I Timothy 1:11).

Catholicism is essentially a wrong interpretation of the gospel when their doctrine calls for a merit theology in issues like justification wherein Salvation by grace is condemned by Trent as anathema (cursed, or damned, and worthy of excommunication). So, Ituttut, Catholics do not believe on Jesus only for Salvation but upon their works. And the Protestants quoted are interested only in showing the differences between Catholic doctrine and Protestant Evangelical doctrine

A church should want a doctrine, or set of beliefs, based upon The Holy Bible.

As Catholics become a majority in this country, the differences between Catholics and Evangelicals will become more pronounced.

I would not want a merit theology for myself because one would always have to be doing something in order to earn Heaven. Islam strikes me as a religion of works also--one has to pray facing Mecca five times a day at specified times, one has to fast and refrain from sex during Ramadan, one has to give 2 1/2% to charity each year, one has to go to Mecca once in a lifetime at a certain time of the year if one has the money and one is physically able to travel, etc. Work, work, work.

For the Protestant, he can sing, "Jesus paid it all; all to Him I owe; sin had left a crimson stain; He washed it white as snow."

 

[ituttut]

Originally posted by church mouse guy:

Church mouse guy: Catholicism is what is called a merit theology. It is based upon works and performance of duties to the Catholic church. We are dealing with only one set of doctrines with the Catholic Church since the Vatican determines Catholic doctrine and those who do not believe or support Vatican doctrines are not in good standing.

ituttut: Indeed, you are correct. Do you ever quote James to buttress your argument? How about Acts 2:38? Is this what we are to preach today? This is not Christian.

But is this Pentecostal? Is James saved? How about Peter and the others? Do not these at that time believe on the name of the Lord Jesus Christ for their salvation? This is “conditional” salvation. The Christian salvation is “unconditional”.


As for the variations among Protestants, those deal with secondary issues such as church government and not main issues such as Salvation by Grace, for example. However, in order to narrow the discussion, I would suggest respectfully that the discussion of Protestants be limited to Evangelicals since other Protestant denominations are fading.

ituttut: And who are these Evangelical denominations?

What are their accomplishments regarding taking the Word to the Whole World under the Pentecostal message (remember Evangelicals by definition are mainly known for following the three Synopsis Gospels of Matthew, Mark, and Luke)?

What are their accomplishments regarding taking the Word to the Whole World under the Christian message (remember the Christian came into existence only after Paul was brought to Antioch)?

Do you or your church go to both Jew and Gentile. They are equal today. Does your church or any other Evangelical denomination (which you will hopefully define here) pour your heart to reaching the Jew as the Gentile?

 

[ituttut]

Originally posted by church mouse guy:
Hi, Ituttut, you asked if doctrine saves anyone? No, Jesus saves. However, if your doctrine is Hindu, then it is not a correct doctrine. Doctrine should reflect "the glorious gospel of the blessed God" (I Timothy 1:11).

ituttut: Hello Christian friend.

What is this glorious gospel? Paul says Christ from heaven gave him a gospel. I believe that. Believe on the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved and your house. . . .I believe that.

Then Paul tells us how this is possible. For by grace are we saved through faith, and we don’t have one thing to do with it. Jesus fulfilled the law and the prophets, and then gave his life for us. He did all of the work. The life is in the blood that he spilled for us. The Spirit baptizes us into that blood into Jesus Christ’s death, and we are dead to the law of the ordinances and no longer under a “schoolmaster”. We are now made righteous in Him. We have come through the blood, being reborn into His Body. This One baptism of “dipping” and sealing, is done without hands, as we have been circumcised. We, in Christ, are now “sons of God”.

It makes no difference what doctrine a Hindu holds, it is not effective, as this religion does not believe in the name of Jesus Christ.

Believing on the name of the Lord Jesus Christ for our salvation is Our Doctrine. What we do after that becomes man’s doctrine in the flesh, as our salvation and calling is Spiritual. I have a faith. This faith is my Doctrine. I am not a religious person. Should then my Doctrine separate me from other Christian’s that believe on the name of Jesus Christ for their salvation? Yes. We align ourselves with those that most closely agree with our belief. It would be very hard to find two Baptists that agree on everything. It is impossible to find any in other denominations that agree with most of what we preach.

So down here, could all these “sects” depict different parts of the Body of Christ? What ever we believe, it will be up to Christ to do the judging.

All we can really go on down here is what we know people believe. Do they believe they are saved by believing in their heart that coming under His name they will be saved? Does God need more proof? If so, I can’t find it in His Word from Heaven. Our rewards will come on what we believe, and not what we do.

 

[ituttut]

Originally posted by church mouse guy:

cmguy: Catholicism is essentially a wrong interpretation of the gospel when their doctrine calls for a merit theology in issues like justification wherein Salvation by grace is condemned by Trent as anathema (cursed, or damned, and worthy of excommunication). So, Ituttut, Catholics do not believe on Jesus only for Salvation but upon their works. And the Protestants quoted are interested only in showing the differences between Catholic doctrine and Protestant Evangelical doctrine

ituttut: Have you read James closely?

A church should want a doctrine, or set of beliefs, based upon The Holy Bible.

ituttut: Jesus lived in the Old Testament, and the New Testament, as did all of the Apostles. Does Mark 16:16, or Acts 2.38 read the same as Acts 16:31? Are these answers based on the foundation of Jesus Christ? Do we Baptists build according to the grace of God, on the foundation of Jesus Christ? Do we put down our foundation on Christ and follow the blueprint of the masterbuilder - I Corinthians 3:10? The verse’s that follow would indicate we should, but some do not, especially in the other denominations.

As Catholics become a majority in this country, the differences between Catholics and Evangelicals will become more pronounced.

ituttut: And then again, what of the ecumenical movement. Does Billy Graham preach this, and others of the Evangelicals?

I would not want a merit theology for myself because one would always have to be doing something in order to earn Heaven. Islam strikes me as a religion of works also--one has to pray facing Mecca five times a day at specified times, one has to fast and refrain from sex during Ramadan, one has to give 2 1/2% to charity each year, one has to go to Mecca once in a lifetime at a certain time of the year if one has the money and one is physically able to travel, etc. Work, work, work.

ituttut: Sounds like some books I have read. But what does Islam have to do with us. I don’t believe they believe their salvation recognizes salvation is in Christ Jesus.

For the Protestant, he can sing, "Jesus paid it all; all to Him I owe; sin had left a crimson stain; He washed it white as snow."

Ituttut: I will agree with all in the Body of Christ are saved, whatever their affiliation with a church down here, or one that does not join one down here.[/I]

 

[church mouse guy]

Don't have a good definition of Evangelicals to post today. However, I see that Merriam-Webster's Encyclopedia of World Religions says that Protestantism is ...'characterized by its doctrines of justification by grace through faith, the preiesthood of all believers, and the authority of the scriptures."

The SBC says that "Justification is God's gracious and full acquittal upon principles of His righteousness of all sinners who repent and believe in Christ. Justification brings the believer unto a relationship of peace and favor with God."

This differs from Catholicism that insists that certain works must be performed before one merits Justification.