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Vaticanus

Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by Glory2God, Feb 14, 2005.

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  1. Glory2God

    Glory2God New Member

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    Why would anybody want to use a bible based off of a [descriptive term deleted] text collated by the Roman Catholic Church???Any thoughts???

    [ February 14, 2005, 10:01 PM: Message edited by: Phillip ]
     
    #1 Glory2God, Feb 14, 2005
  2. natters

    natters New Member

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    The Byzantine manuscripts behind the TR are not exactly from your local Independent Byzantine Baptist Church....
     
    #2 natters, Feb 14, 2005
  3. robycop3

    robycop3 Well-Known Member
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    How do you KNOW Vaticanus is...well that word you used?

    And did you know the canon of the Bible you use was ESTABLISHED BY CATHOLICS???
     
    #3 robycop3, Feb 14, 2005
  4. David J

    David J New Member

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    Why trust something put together by a Roman Catholic monk named Erasmus?

    I guess you might should throw the KJV away!
     
    #4 David J, Feb 14, 2005
  5. Askjo

    Askjo New Member

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    Did Erasmus use Vaticanus and favor it?
     
    #5 Askjo, Feb 14, 2005
  6. David J

    David J New Member

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    You miss my point LOL!
     
    #6 David J, Feb 14, 2005
  7. Askjo

    Askjo New Member

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    You did not answer my question.
     
    #7 Askjo, Feb 14, 2005
  8. David J

    David J New Member

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    Thats a good one Askjo! How many questions do you ignore?

    Anyway did you get the point I was making?

    I'm not sure what Erasmus favored.
     
    #8 David J, Feb 15, 2005
  9. mioque

    mioque New Member

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    Glory2God
    Vaticanus has it's name because it is stored in the Vatican library. The Pope got it as a gift.
    The people who made the copy belonged most likely to what would later become the Koptic Church

    "Did Erasmus use Vaticanus and favor it?"
    "
    He never layed eyes on it.
     
    #9 mioque, Feb 15, 2005
  10. Anti-Alexandrian

    Anti-Alexandrian Member

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    Good question.


    No,but they are the ones Paul used(Acts)and the ones behind the word of God(KJB).


    And was banned and still are banned as per the council of Trent.The RCC(and another well know sect)has anathematized any MSS compiled by Erasmus,or Bible translated from them.


    But he had access to all of the variants found in the RCC's pet mss.
     
    #10 Anti-Alexandrian, Feb 15, 2005
  11. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    Could you give a little more detail and some documentation about this Roby.

    Do you mean the confirmation of the NT canon at the Council of Chalcedon (451AD)?

    HankD
     
    #11 HankD, Feb 15, 2005
  12. natters

    natters New Member

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    No,but they are the ones Paul used(Acts)and the ones behind the word of God(KJB).
    </font>[/QUOTE]Perhaps, but the point is they are/were maintained and collated by the Catholic church. Which is what the original post was not in favor of.
     
    #12 natters, Feb 15, 2005
  13. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    Actually, the first early church leader to list and establish the canon of the NT correctly was not a "Catholic".

    It was Athanasius in his Easter Letter of 367AD.

    He was a defender of the faith, a champion of orthodoxy, the deity of Christ and the orthodox doctrine of the Holy Trinity.

    Why is this imprortant?

    May I shout it?

    HE WAS AN ALEXANDRIAN BELIEVER! You know, one of those bad guys!

    See Christianity through the centuries, Earle E.Cairns, page 128.

    HankD
     
    #13 HankD, Feb 15, 2005
  14. 4His_glory

    4His_glory New Member

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    Here are the texts Erasmus used:

    1eap, 2e, 817- he used these for the Gospels.
    2ap,4ap,7p- he used these for Acts and Epistles
    1r- for Revelation.

    Please note this is a extremly small number of manuscripts considering that we know of over 5000 that exist today. The TR is not exactally a Majority Text reading. Revelation was done from only one manuscript and that even was not complete, necesitating his infamous back translating from Latin into Greek.
     
    #14 4His_glory, Feb 15, 2005
  15. rsr

    rsr <b> 7,000 posts club</b>
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    Since we're talking about the invalidity of the Vaticanus ...

    What was the provenance of the manuscripts that Erasmus, Beza, Stephanus, etc., used to construct what later would become known (rightly or wrongly) of the TR?

    In other words, which churches had custody of these documents prior to their being used to compile a printed edition of the Greek NT?
     
    #15 rsr, Feb 15, 2005
  16. 4His_glory

    4His_glory New Member

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    Erasmus did his work in Basel. It is difficult to find where the manuscripts he used originated from. Some say he found them in the Dominican Monastery in Basel. The Dominicans there recieved them from Cardinal John Stojkovic of Ragusa who attended a council in Basel in the year 1431. The Cardinal may have laid hold of them in Constantinople on a recent trip.

    Just for the record, I think the Vaticanius is just as valid as any other of 5000 plus manuscripts we have.
     
    #16 4His_glory, Feb 15, 2005
  17. Glory2God

    Glory2God New Member

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    2Ti 2:9 Wherein I suffer trouble, as an evil doer, even unto bonds; but the word of God is not bound.

    Erasmus got saved, just as did Luthur. To say Erasmus was a Roman Catholic monk has no more validity on his scholarship than to say I was an alcoholic and drug addict.(among other things)

    Lu 5:32 I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

    If you were not and/or are not a sinner, you can't be saved!!!

    The point in 2Ti 2:9 is the Vaticanus was and is bound. It has readings that came directly from Valitinus, Origen, Marcion, Arius, Philo, and many other reprobates. All the deleting of posts in the world won't change facts.

    Does your bible have calvary,the mercyseat, propitiation,advocate,chaste,fornicate,carnal,concupiscience,impute,abide,testament etc......

    I,m glad we have "scholars" like The Pope, White, Westcott, Hort, Graham, and the loving folks right here at BaptistBoard.com who will NEVER bat an eyelash at it. [​IMG] [​IMG]

    Perhaps that's why the hymns of old are being replaced by worldly Rock N Roll.

    :D :D :D 1Jo 2:15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
     
    #17 Glory2God, Feb 15, 2005
  18. natters

    natters New Member

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    Hey, you're the one that started this thread, opposing documents preserved by Catholics.

    2 Tim 2:9 doesn't even mention Vaticanus.

    Proof?

    Drat, you uncovered the master conspiracy.
     
    #18 natters, Feb 15, 2005
  19. rsr

    rsr <b> 7,000 posts club</b>
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    I really wanted a serious answer, for which I am indebted to 4His_Glory.

    As for G2G's comments, "To say Erasmus was a Roman Catholic monk has no more validity on his scholarship than to say I was an alcoholic and drug addict.(among other things)" is directly in conflict with "I,m glad we have 'scholars' like The Pope, White, Westcott, Hort, Graham, and the loving folks right here at BaptistBoard.com who will NEVER bat an eyelash at it." You can't have it both ways; ad hominem attacks cut equally well.

    Anyone else have information on the provenance of Erasmus' manuscripts?
     
    #19 rsr, Feb 15, 2005
  20. Glory2God

    Glory2God New Member

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    Try the Encyclopedia Britanica, I'm not throwing everything I know on the table for a reason. You guys should know what I'm talking about. The Lord's prayer in Luke is chopped to shreds. I know why!! White does not!! Read his book three times, thats where most of the textual "scholarship" is coming from around here. A book or two makes you NOTHING in this area. Anyone serious about this thread should ALREADY be familiar with the heresies of ALL those heretics mentioned. History 101.

    These are the general tactics:

    16 These are murmurers, complainers, walking after their own lusts; and their mouth speaketh great swelling words, having men's persons in admiration because of advantage.

    That doesn't work on me because I:

    2Ti 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

    I'm just sizing up the enemy!!!

    Pr 29:11 ¶ A fool uttereth all his mind: but a wise man keepeth it in till afterwards. [​IMG]
     
    #20 Glory2God, Feb 15, 2005
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