Verses that PROVE Definite Atonement

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by Faith alone:
A real Calvinist cannot say that...

Originally posted by TCassidy:

Of course he can! Christ's death provided benefits for each and every person who ever lived. Christ's atonement is sufficient for every person who ever lived.

Now we are talking!!!

What do you mean by "provided benefits" And "Sufficient"??

Do you mean that the SUFFERINGS of Christ are equal to the SUFFERINGS owed by EACH and every sinner in all of time? (Recall that in Heb 2 we are told that "Christ tasted of the sufferings of death for every man".)

So that in Issaiah 53 we read that HIS suffering was "substitutionary" he took the strokes of suffering that were DUE to us!

Do you mean that he took it ALL - the suffering of ALL in all of time EVEN though He knew that ALL would not accept the Gift that such suffering provided?

If so -- you are an Arminian and what is more - you have embraced the Gospel!!

In Christ,

Bob

 

[TCassidy]

Originally posted by BobRyan:
What do you mean by "provided benefits" And "Sufficient"??

I mean "provided benefits" and "sufficient."

If so -- you are an Arminian and what is more - you have embraced the Gospel!!

No, I am not an Arminian (and neither was Jacobus Arminius - he was a Calvinist). And I did not embrace the gospel, the gospel embraced me. Praise God it was all of Him and none of me.

 

[jarhed]

Originally posted by King James Bond:
jarhed,

Repent.

KJB

Still no answer. I guess the things I teach in class are true...Calvinism is only strong if you argue verse jerked out of context against verse jerked out of context. If we present Bible contexts, types, and use just a little cross-referencing...its all over. Why? The bible is an amazing book if we read it and quit trying to wrest it! I rest my case. You have no answer, sirs! Now, please don't bother replying with a "LIST" of single verses jerked out of context, or personal insulting diatribe...it has all been done and simply goes to the proof of my point.

 

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by BobRyan:
What do you mean by "provided benefits" And "Sufficient"?? If so -- you are an Arminian and what is more - you have embraced the Gospel!![/b]

Originally posted by TCassidy:

I mean "provided benefits" and "sufficient."

I am not an Arminian (and neither was Jacobus Arminius - he was a Calvinist). And I did not embrace the gospel, the gospel embraced me. Praise God it was all of Him and none of me.

Oh I see "you stood the whole time you were sitting there"!!

Wonderful contradictions-in-Calvinism!!

But you did not answer the question about Why Christ would choose to suffer specficially to meet all the debt of those that He knows will not go to heaven.

Still waiting for you to untangle Calvinism.

You did not answer the question about "providing benefits" And "sufficient" -- is God getting paid "twice"??

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by jarhed:
Still no answer. I guess the things I teach in class are true...Calvinism is only strong if you argue verse jerked out of context against verse jerked out of context.

How very true.

Good to read your posts here.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by jarhed:
It is being pointed out that you cannot prove ANYTHING by stand alone verses, particularly when used out of context. I read through your list and could not find one that even hints at limited atonement. We must go to context and word study to discover what terms mean.

Preach it!

(As they say).

Exegesis is a concept foreign to the methods of Calvinism - at least when it comes to the "problem texts" for Calvinism.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[King James Bond]

jarhed,

What answer are you looking for?

Bob,

As opposed to the antics of KJB above - I claimed that the DRAWING of God in John 12:32 ENABLES choice that EVEN CALVINISTS admit to!!

And yet KJB is so stuck on "antics and gimmickry" that he will not address the point.

Why so distracted KJB? Has your own argument run out so soon?

You never said drawing enables choice...you are back peddling.

You used the idea that God wants all people to be saved......and you claimed that the way God does this is by drawing all of them to Him.

You claim when Scripture says God draws all men to Him it means as His purpose to save every person.

But you can't prove God draws all men to Him. Why is that? Because some are very far away.

Then you say it is enlightenment that God uses to save people.

As per your posts God wants all people saved, so He enlightens them and draws them ALL to Him.

The problem is that you just can't figure out what the words draw and enlighten mean! You have no idea!

If all men are enlightened....they are no longer in the dark. Do you understand that?

If all men are enlightened they are enlightened and not darkened.......

My antics as you call them fit the bill...the Bob bill!

You claim that the final and ultimate factor in a persons salvation is in the person him or her self as God has played some sort of equal and fair deal with everybody.

To you it is as if God has to be an "Equal opportunity Savior" or something.

So if you THINK that the ultimate and final factor of salvation is in the person.......then you just keep giving credit where you think the credit is due.

If you wish and desire to give credit to Mr Bob for choosing God....do it! Far be it for me to stop you!

Now do you have some sort of problem with me wishing to give ALL credit to God?

Does that bother you? Does that make you knash your teeth or something? Do you have aproblem with me giving all credit and glory to my Savior?

I am not worried about you or your tricks.

He will keep me strong to the end, so that I will be blameless on the day of my Lord Jesus Christ. God, who has called me into fellowship with His Son Jesus Christ my Lord, is faithful.

Where is the wise man? Where is the scholar? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe. Jews demand miraculous signs and Greeks look for wisdom, but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, but to those whom God has called , both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. For the foolishness of God is wiser than man's wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than man's strength.

Brothers, think of what you were when you were called. Not many of you were wise by human standards; not many were influential; not many were of noble birth. But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong. He chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things—and the things that are not—to nullify the things that are, so that no one may boast before him. It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus , who has become for us wisdom from God—that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption. Therefore, as it is written: "Let him who boasts boast in the Lord."

So Mr Bob.....since you have so much free-will.....keep boasting and giving glory to yourself.

Boast Bob boast all about Bob. You can keep teaching others to boast in themselves and the wonderful choices they made because they are much wiser than others.

If it was up to me I would not ban you for doing so.....even if you used bad language.

God is powerful enough to get His message through to His people.

I am not worried about your tricks and deception.

He will keep me strong to the end, so that I will be blameless on the day of my Lord Jesus Christ. God, who has called me into fellowship with His Son Jesus Christ my Lord, is faithful.

KJB

 

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by King James Bond:
You never said drawing enables choice...you are back peddling.

You used the idea that God wants all people to be saved......and you claimed that the way God does this is by drawing all of them to Him.

You claim when Scripture says God draws all men to Him it means as His purpose to save every person.

I appreciate your repeating my argument because it is important when opposing something to actually know what it is.

But in this case you are mistaken - somewhat.

#1. I have repeatedly argued that the CHOICE of sinful, fallen depraved mankind - dead in sins - is only ENABLED via the supernatural DRAWING (John 12:32) of God. And I have seen Calvinists argue that same point from John 12:32.

#2. I argue that the way we "know" God loves the world is that God SAYS HE loves the World. The way we KNOW that God gave Christ as the "Savior of the World" is that 1John 4:14 says God sent His Son as the "Savior of the World". The way we KNOW that God gave Christ to US as "The Atoning Sacrifice" for OUR SINS and not OUR SINS only but for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD is because God SAYS ... 1John 2:2. (So you are free to quote me on that point. It does not change).

KJB -
But you can't prove God draws all men to Him.

Not if I avoid the text of scripture - (in this case John 12:32) then you miss the part where HE SAYS "I will DRAW ALL UNTO ME" - and you miss the 2Peter 3 part where He says "HE is NOT WILLING FOR ANY to Perish".

KJB Why is that? Because some are very far away.

Nope - there are NONE too far for God!!

So trying to "rationalize HIM out of MEANING what HE says" does not form a "kind" of exegesis nor does it refute the text!

God Loves ALL, (John 3:16)

He ENABLES ALL by Drawing ALL (John 12:32)

He IS the light that coming in to the world ENLIGHTENS EVER MAN (John 1:4-7)

He CONVICTS ALL of Sin and Righteousness and Judgment (John 16:8-12)

And this is ALL compatiable with the way/model/method/means that one must use to convince an intelligent BEING to make a choice.

It is total nonsense to the "Flip a switch on that robot please" model that Calvinism pretends to believe.

KJB
As per your posts God wants all people saved, so He enlightens them and draws them ALL to Him.

The texts did show that - "yes".

And of course my review of Romans 2 shows how this works EVEN in the most extreme case of those who have NO ACCESS TO SCRIPTURE at ALL!

KJB

The problem is that you just can't figure out what the words draw and enlighten mean! You have no idea!

Really!

When did I ever claim such a thing? When did you ever prove such a baseless charge?

Or are you just "making stuff up" again??

God said --

John 1
4 In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men.
5 The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.
6 There came a man sent from God, whose name was John.
7 He came as a witness, to testify about the Light, so that all might believe through him.
8 He was not the Light, but he came to testify about the Light.
9 There was the true Light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man.

10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him.
11 He came to His own, and those who were His own did not receive Him.

But KJB says back ---

If all men are enlightened....they are no longer in the dark. Do you understand that?

Hey KJB - read John 1 "again" -- do you really think He does not understand you? Isn't it possible that your logic is as obviously flawed when God sees it - as it is when the rest of us read it?

My guess is that He "is right" when HE SAYS that He is the LIGHT that DOES enlighten but that mankind loves darkness more than light!

My guess is "that HE is RIGHT" when He says "HE CAME TO HIS OWN - but HIS OWN RECEIVED Him not"

But of course - you may be thinking is does not understand what He is saying.

And That is where CAlvinism "needs to go" - so I understand why you have to say that.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[King James Bond]

Bob,

It is best if you finish the text. There seems to always be a reason you stop without posting;

But although the world was made through him, the world didn't recognize him when he came. Even in his own land and among his own people, he was not accepted. But to all who believed him and accepted him, he gave the right to become children of God. They are reborn! This is not a physical birth resulting from human passion or plan--this rebirth comes from God.

OR

He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him.
He came to His own, and those who were His own did not receive Him. But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

This clarifies the entire concept of what you are talking about with your "enlighten every man".

I know "There was the true Light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man" is in the Bible....it is right before;

He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him.

He came to His own, and those who were His own did not receive Him.

But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name,

who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

So now which men are the ALL that are enlightened enough to be saved or born again?

Free-will of man is it? Or "but of God"?

KJB

 

[jarhed]

Originally posted by BobRyan:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by jarhed:
Still no answer. I guess the things I teach in class are true...Calvinism is only strong if you argue verse jerked out of context against verse jerked out of context.

How very true.

Good to read your posts here.

In Christ,

Bob </font>[/QUOTE]Hey Bob, thanks for noticing...I enjoy yours too...but they will only answer questions on single verses...they have repeatedly ignored CONCEPTS from CONTEXTS, because there is no answer. It would seem I have been wasting my time, but I really got the answer I wanted and thought I would get...without even completely having to develop the thought or discuss the concept of a truly OMNIPRESENT God, which is clearly the God of the Bible, Calvinism is LEFT WITH NO ANSWER! Just a short introduction on several threads and the answer was the same on all of them...S I L E N C E or insults to my person. PREACH the WORD Brother! What an AWESOME Book!

 

[King James Bond]

jarhed,

who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

Thanks!

KJB

 

[BobRyan]

Thats a good snippet KJB --

Now for the actual text!

"Light shines in DARKNESS" - the entire world is said to be in darkness not just the jews.
"so that ALL might believe through Him" Unqualified - the message of John in the Gospels has gone to all the WORLD.

John 1
7 He came as a witness, to testify about the Light, so that all might believe through him.
8 He was not the Light, but he came to testify about the Light.
9 There was the true Light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man.
10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him.
11 He came to His own, and those who were His own did not receive Him.
12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name,

In vs 9 the “light comes into the World” – the same “World” that is MADE by Christ in vs 10.

This is the act of an impartial God who "so loved the world" that He gives His Son to a race of depraved humans to be "The Savior of the World" 1John 4:14.

It is only because of God's WILL that any are saved. Man had not ability to "Will himself" a Savior.

So our Impartial God (Rom 2:11) sends Christ our Lord and Savior to be the Atoning Sacrifice for "Our Sins" and NOT for "Our sins only but for the sins of the Whole World" 1John 2:2

John 1
12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name,
13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

For "God is not WILLING THAT ANY should perish" 2Peter 3.

Salvation is only by the "Will of God".
In vs 12 we see that the action of those who received Christ is what determines the result and in the Greek the reception is in the "active voice". It does not state that some other action was taken forcing them to be children of God and the ones thus “Changed” simply “awoke to notice the fact” that they were already in “union with Christ” some time later. (Analytical Greek NT - "indicative mood" and "active voice" used for receive in John 1:12)

(As for the “a god” arguments of some --
Notice "children of A God" just does not work here.
Notice "Nor of the will of man, but of A God" is not workable. No justification for such abuse of the text.)

The WILL of God – is that “none-should perish”. (If we use scripture to define that will.)

(But some like to see in John 1 the opportunity to for a bit of eisegesis. The chance to “Read INTO the text” the idea that God was NOT WILLING for the MANY to come to repentance and be saved – rather those born of the “will of God” are ALL that God is “willing” to save.)

Born of blood - referring to natural birth.

God's part: Sending His Son as light into the world - the same world that was made through him - (global unqualified non-restrictive context.)
not only into the world but also to his own (those he chose for himself) -

Man's part - history (those chosen as "his own" failed - they did not receive HIM).
- standing offer - BUT To as many as RECEIVED Him (by contrast to HIS CHOSEN "OWN" - who did NOT receive Him)

God's part - to them he gave the right to become children of God.

God's part - to cause those that receive him to be born again.

Calvinism "hope" of course is to ignore the sequence - to lift God's part out - and delete man's part so that NO sequence appears - JUST God causing man to be born again - arbitrarily selecting prior to any reference of man receiving anything. Calvinism's attempt to ignore the complete text fails.

The Arminian principle of
-God first acting to supernaturally bring salvation to all,
- then calling for man to respond and receive,
- then subsequently
providing that those who act and receive - shall then have the right to become children of god following their act of receiving.

And though He comes as light into the World (the same WORLD that He made) and "Enlightens every man" - yet it is not to force the will - but to compel "every one of mankind" to action, as it convicts and draws mankind to choose light - to choose to OPEN the door.
--

And what is the Calvinist response to this set of key points against Calvinism?

(Ignore them ALL and just snippet back "not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God" as if THAT WAS ALL God said in John 1!!!)

Perfect!

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by King James Bond:
Bob,

It is best if you finish the text. There seems to always be a reason you stop without posting;

But although the world was made through him, the world didn't recognize him when he came. Even in his own land and among his own people, he was not accepted. But to all who believed him and accepted him, he gave the right to become children of God. They are reborn! This is not a physical birth resulting from human passion or plan--this rebirth comes from God.

Indeed He "came TO HIS OWN" and "HIS OWN received Him NOT"!!

This was what Paul calls "THE NATURAL BRANCHES" - those who were expected to accept the Messiah who had been selected and trained for that purpose.

And what was the result??

Matt 23
13 "But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you shut off the kingdom of heaven from people; for you do not enter in yourselves, nor do you allow those who are entering to go in.
[/quote

But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

The text does NOT Say "but as many as HE gave the right to become children of God - to them He gave the grace to receive him".

You know ... Calvinism.

Salvation was not started/initiated/dreamed up by man. It is not of man's design or will - it is God's plan to provide the Gospel. God alone for HE "IS not WILLING that any should perish".

In Christ,

Bob

 

[King James Bond]

Bob,

It is not a "snipet".

It is an important part of the entire context of what you were posting.

It is the MAJOR part of what we are talking about.

Are people born again by the will of men or the will of God?

Free-will of man or the will of God?

You don't have to highlight those verses....I can see them very clearly.

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
He was in the beginning with God.

All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.

In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men.

The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.

There came a man sent from God, whose name was John.

He came as a witness, to testify about the Light, so that all might believe through him.

He was not the Light, but he came to testify about the Light.

There was the true Light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man.

He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him.

He came to His own, and those who were His own did not receive Him.

But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, &lt;(notice comma)

who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

Now,,people that receive Him are born by the will of men or the will of God?

KJB

 

[King James Bond]

Bob,

If you wish to thank yourself for choosing who am I to stop you?

Why is it you have a problem with people that wish to thank God and God alone for everything?

Why does that bother you? Why is it a thorn in your side that others wish to thank God and God alone?

When we meet our maker we are more than content and convicted to give Him all the glory and say something to the effect of "Thankyou glorious LORD for saving us".

Is that evil for us to attribute EVERY portion of our salvation to the sovereign will and grace of our God?

Maybe some of us have been made to know how evil we were and maybe our nature was to rebel, fight, run, and hate the things of God.

Maybe we see in ourselves that unless God worked in us we would have never come on our own because we see how wretched we are.

Is it ok for me to attribute EVERY portion of our salvation to God or not?

Why would that bother you? Why would it bother you that we preach "Give all glory to God"?

Has giving all glory to God now become evil?

KJB

 

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by jarhed:
It would seem I have been wasting my time, but I really got the answer I wanted and thought I would get...without even completely having to develop the thought or discuss the concept of a truly OMNIPRESENT God, which is clearly the God of the Bible, Calvinism is LEFT WITH NO ANSWER! Just a short introduction on several threads and the answer was the same on all of them...S I L E N C E or insults to my person.

Certainly not an uncommon response on this board I would agree.

In Christ,

Bob