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Volition

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by revmwc, Apr 25, 2017.

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  1. revmwc

    revmwc Well-Known Member

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    Webster:
    volition

    noun vo·li·tion \vō-ˈli-shən, və-\

    Definition of volition
    1. 1 : an act of making a choice or decision; also : a choice or decision made

    2. 2 : the power of choosing or determining : will
    Romans 7:
    15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
    16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
    17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
    18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
    19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
    20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

    Paul's volition was in play here, his will that which he would no allow he did, that is the sin he preached against he did, not by God making him or forcing him but because of his own determined will. He fell and sinned, does that mean he lost his salvation, God forbid.

    Yet it proves very clearly God gave us volition a human will. Paul uses
    θέλω (thelō)
    Strong: G2309

    GK: G2527

    to exercise the will, properly by an unimpassioned operation; to be willing, Mt. 17:4; to be inclined, disposed, Rom. 13:3; to choose, Lk. 1:62; to intend, design, Lk. 14:28; to will, Jn. 5:21; 21:22; ἤθελον, I could wish, Gal. 4:20

    See everywhere thelō appears in the New Testament via teknia.com.

    Mounce Concise Greek-English Dictionary of the New Testament
    Mounce Concise Greek-English Dictionary of the New Testament edited by William D. Mounce. Copyright ©2011 by William D. Mounce. All rights reserved. Free Greek dictionary.

    God placed in man free will, volition thelō, we must use thelō every day. When it comes to salvation thelō must also be utilized. Revelation 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely. The whosoever will, the word will is "thelō" whosoever exercises his will that would be in faith, let him drink freely the water of life. God leaves the choice of Placing Faith in Christ up to the individual and whosoever exercises thelō that is, is willing, inclined chooses may come to Christ for salvation can do so!
     
    #1 revmwc, Apr 25, 2017
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  2. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Did paul have a real choice in whether to become an Apostle though?
     
    #2 Yeshua1, Apr 25, 2017
  3. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    You have conflated volition with free will. They are not the same.

    Volition is the ability to make a choice. People, all people, make choices every day.

    Free will is not addressing volition. Free will is addressing sin and the sinful nature of mankind.

    Free will is a misnomer in that the will of the lost man is not free. It is in bondage to the law of sin and death.

    Think of a man in prison. He has volition. He can make choices.

    He can make a choice what book he wants to read from the library cart.

    He can make a choice of whether or not he wants to eat lunch.

    He can make a choice of whether or not he plays basketball in the prison yard.

    He just can't leave. He is in bondage to the law of the land, which he broke. He is free to make choices but he is not free to live outside the prison walls.

    The lost man is free to make choices. All sorts of choices. But he is not free to live outside the consequences of sin and death.

    That kind of freedom comes only by the Grace of Almighty God. :)
     
    #3 TCassidy, Apr 25, 2017
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  4. revmwc

    revmwc Well-Known Member

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    Yes Saul had a real choice.
     
    #4 revmwc, Apr 25, 2017
  5. MennoSota

    MennoSota Well-Known Member
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    Saul's choice was to kill Christians and hate Yeshua. All humanity naturally runs from God and never naturally runs toward God.
    God called a wicked man named Saul and chose to save Him because...God chose to save Him. There was nothing about Saul that was worthy of God's grace. This is the same for you and me and all humankind. We are rebels who are naturally antagonistic to God.
     
    #5 MennoSota, Apr 25, 2017
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  6. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    God had predestined Paul as the Apostle unto the Gentiles, so did paul really have the means to not be that Apostle then?
     
    #6 Yeshua1, Apr 26, 2017
  7. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    God Predestined paul as His Apostle, so did he really have that choice?
     
    #7 Yeshua1, Apr 26, 2017
  8. Calv1

    Calv1 Active Member

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    God forces? Where do you see Reformed people say God forces anyone to do anything? "I have DRAWN YOU with MY LOVE", does that sound like force? When we win a wife, do we force her or do we win her over with Love?

    Here's the bottom line on will, we have will, limited to be sure, but God has FREE WILL, and is much more powerful than ours, is perfect, is free, and does all that He please among men, even the Pagan King Nebuchadnezzar knew this fact of our God, yet we don't? Our will is limited by the choices we have, and ULTIMATELY we'll always choose what we think will benefit us most, meditate on that, well read scripture on it, but it's self evident, we always choose our highest good, and if slaves to sin, we'll always choose sin as the unregenerate's highest good is sin, they are slaves to it and are not "Able to please God".

    Whenever I see a post where God "Makes us", I know there is great misunderstanding. I'd recommend Luthers "Bondage of the Will", his response to Roman Church top apologist Erasmus "Freedom of the will". Arminians and Catholics have that in common, both are synergists, as are the rest of Religion in the world, only Biblical Christianity teaches Monergism.

     
    #8 Calv1, Apr 26, 2017
  9. Calv1

    Calv1 Active Member

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    We are made for God, like food for hunger, so of course God reveals Himself we'll always take Him. That's like saying "If the greatest love, joy and peace entered us we have no choice"?? Study Reformed Theology
     
    #9 Calv1, Apr 26, 2017
  10. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    I have studied it, and agree with that, but many here still hold to the "real free will?"
     
    #10 Yeshua1, Apr 26, 2017
  11. Calv1

    Calv1 Active Member

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    Sorry, doing like 8 conversations at once. I agree, it's a matter of terminology anyways. I like the term "Volition", it's from the root "volunteer", we can only volunteer to do our greatest good. And someone might say "I do things I hate all the time, what do you mean I pick my highest good", yes you do things you hate, say a hard job, but the consequence of NOT doing that job are worse than doing it, so once again we pick out highest good:)

    I think a good answer to Free Will, aside from direct bible quotations that we do not have free will, is that first God has free will, and which do you think wins out? Second if we had traditional free will, it's possible God could have never had Christ crucified, what if in their FREE WILL they always made Him King, or if Pilate in His free will just said "I'm in charge, He goes free", then what? Would God have to TRY AGAIN, HOPE THOSE FREE WILL PEOPLE FINALLY KILL MY SON?

    Acts 4 couldn't be more clear, God PREDESTINED the Jews, Romans, Pilate, Judas to conspire and kill His own Son, Isaiah 53 says "It pleased the Lord to bruise Him", wait I thought the people did it, yes the people did it by picking their highest good that they were capable of, just like with Joseph, "You meant THAT EVENT for evil, God meant THAT SAME EVENT for good.

    God willing they'll study and God's Spirit will open their eyes.

    Good job
     
    #11 Calv1, Apr 26, 2017
  12. revmwc

    revmwc Well-Known Member

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    I know many of you don't like Vine's but here you go:
    B — 1: πρόγνωσις
    (Strong's #4268 — Noun Feminine — prognosis — prog'-no-sis )
    B — 1: πρόγνωσις
    (Strong's #4268 — Noun Feminine — prognosis — prog'-no-sis )
    "a foreknowledge" (akin to A.), is used only of Divine "foreknowledge," Acts 2:23 ; 1 Peter 1:2 . "Foreknowledge" is one aspect of omniscience; it is implied in God's warnings, promises and predictions. See Acts 15:18 . God's "foreknowledge" involves His electing grace, but this does not preclude human will. He "foreknows" the exercise of faith which brings salvation. The Apostle Paul stresses especially the actual purposes of God rather than the ground of the purposes, see, e.g., Galatians 1:16 ; Ephesians 1:5,11 . The Divine counsels will ever be unthwartable. Cp. FORESHEW.
    "a foreknowledge" (akin to A.), is used only of Divine "foreknowledge," Acts 2:23 ; 1 Peter 1:2 . "Foreknowledge" is one aspect of omniscience; it is implied in God's warnings, promises and predictions. See Acts 15:18 . God's "foreknowledge" involves His electing grace, but this does not preclude human will. He "foreknows" the exercise of faith which brings salvation. The Apostle Paul stresses especially the actual purposes of God rather than the ground of the purposes, see, e.g., Galatians 1:16 ; Ephesians 1:5,11 . The Divine counsels will ever be unthwartable. Cp. FORESHEW.

    So we see the word prognosis, per mounce:1 Peter 1:2 elect according to kata the foreknowledge prognōsis of God theos the Father patēr by en being set apart hagiasmos by the Spirit pneuma for eis obedience hypakoē and kai for sprinkling rhantismos with the blood haima of Jesus Iēsous Christ Christos. May grace charis and kai peace eirēnē be yours hymeis in ever increasing measure plēthunō.
    Election is determined upon what God foreknew, per Vine "God's "foreknowledge" involves His electing grace, but this does not preclude human will. He "foreknows" the exercise of faith which brings salvation. The Apostle Paul stresses especially the actual purposes of God rather than the ground of the purposes. So let's look at something based on this, John 3:18 states, 18 "He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God." Anyone who truly believes on Christ is not condemned, those who believe not are condemned already, God knows who will and who will not believe on the Son. He foreknows "the exercise of faith which brings salvation." That comes faith comes from, thelō being put into action, those who believe that is those who GOD foreknows will believe on the son and thus they are elected, set apart by the Spirit. Elect as children of God based on what God knows as Vines put's it "Foreknowledge" is one aspect of omniscience;". So election is based upon God's Omniscience in being a God who knows all things including who will and who will not believe. Thus not one person is forced to believe but drawn of the Spirit to believe.
     
    #12 revmwc, Apr 26, 2017
  13. revmwc

    revmwc Well-Known Member

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    Of course they had free will but GOD IN His Foreknowledge knew the choice they would make. He knew before the foundation of world when He chose Christ to be the Savior. What did He know that men would be sinners in need of Savior. Thus He predetermined by his foreknowledge that "God PREDESTINED the Jews, Romans, Pilate, Judas to conspire and kill His own Son
     
    #13 revmwc, Apr 26, 2017
  14. Calv1

    Calv1 Active Member

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    First, GOD KNOWS EVERYTHING, so to make a statement that God has knowledge is ludicrous. Second the term "Know", NEVER MEANS KNOWLEDGE IN THE HOLY BIBLE, it means loving relationship "Adam KNEW Eve", what did he know who she was, no "Adam KNEW Eve, and they conceived a child", just do a simple word search on "Knew" with God as the subject, and you'll see NEVER ONCE is that word used that way, this is where STUDY is helpful:)

    God Preloved us, He Preloved Paul, Isaiah, and all of God's elect, the distinction is needed for He did NOT ForeLOVE the unregenerate.

    And please don't try my patience, do your own study, thanks
     
    #14 Calv1, Apr 26, 2017
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  15. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    God foreknew Hos own from eternity past in the sense that He was directly determining that we would be getting saved, as he knew us in a covenant relationship!
    And acts addresses BOTh aspects of death of Christ, as God determined that Messiah would die by the Cross, isaiah 53, and he used sinners "willing" to do that very act!
     
    #15 Yeshua1, Apr 26, 2017
  16. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    And what, exactly, does this have to do with free will? Are you saying that Vines says the lost sinner is not bound by the law of sin and death? If that is what you are saying you not only do not understand what the term "free will" means, you don't understand what Vines is saying either. :)
     
    #16 TCassidy, Apr 26, 2017
  17. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    What person is not fallen and is not already condemned (John 3:18) by the law of sin and death?
     
    #17 TCassidy, Apr 26, 2017
  18. Calv1

    Calv1 Active Member

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    Good Hermaneutics, "Knew", "Know" NEVER means "Knowledge" in the New or Old Covenants. It ALWAYS means "Relationship", "Adam KNEW Eve", In addition God knows EVERYTHING, He can't learn anything.
     
    #18 Calv1, Apr 26, 2017
  19. revmwc

    revmwc Well-Known Member

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    I have done my own study of the views and have been under several excellent Bible Teachers. I was even under a two that supported TULIP and lead of the Spirit I find Hyper-Calvanism as wanting as the teaching of Arminianism. Paul made it very clear in Romans 8:
    29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
    30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

    What most who follow Tulip will say is Whom He did preordained those He also Preordained. However it actually reads Those whom He knew beforehand those He also preordained.
     
    #19 revmwc, Apr 27, 2017
  20. revmwc

    revmwc Well-Known Member

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    ALL MANKIND has sinned and fallen short of Gods glory all mankind is totally depraved and unconditionally elected yet Paul states election is based on foreknowledge,people resist the drawing of the spirit every single day. Acts 26:28 Then Agrippa said unto Paul, Almost thou persuadest me to be a Christian. Agrippa resisted the Holy Spirit. 1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. Of course it states His atonement for for the whole world, not for the sins of the whole world. So His atonement is and was and will ever be unlimited. The believer is Forever saved by the free Gift of Salvation provided by Christ on the Cross.
     
    #20 revmwc, Apr 27, 2017
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