Waldes of Lyons' Profession of Faith

[CarpentersApprentice]

Eliyahu,

Since this thread is about Waldo's profession of faith, lets save the details of a Petrobrussian discussion for another thread.

...So, the name of Waldensians would have been attached by others like Catholics, sometimes as Vaudois, Valdeshi, Walden (German pronunciation Valden), etc, by others. So the name of the group of the Believers might have not been exactly known as Waldensian all the time...

OK. Then - referencing the quotes I posted above concerning what Wall actually said about the Waldensians (not what was misquoted by Orchard and Williamson) - are we agreed that, though there were "Believers", there were no actual Waldensians before the 12th century?

If no, please cite your sources - your primary sources - to substantiate your conclusion.

Thanks.

CA

 

[Eliyahu]

Eliyahu,

Since this thread is about Waldo's profession of faith, lets save the details of a Petrobrussian discussion for another thread.



OK. Then - referencing the quotes I posted above concerning what Wall actually said about the Waldensians (not what was misquoted by Orchard and Williamson) - are we agreed that, though there were "Believers", there were no actual Waldensians before the 12th century?

If no, please cite your sources - your primary sources - to substantiate your conclusion.

Thanks.

CA

I am not sure 100% yet, but for the moment Yes.

What we lack about Waldo is the faith statement after 1182, not before that time, until 1218.

Name-wise, I have not found it yet unless it was attached later on.

 

[ReformedBaptist]

Read this

http://www.reformedreader.org/history/wylie/ch01.htm

Behind this rampart of mountains, which Providence, foreseeing the approach of evil days, would almost seem to have reared on purpose, did the remnant of the early apostolic Church of Italy kindle their lamp, and here did that lamp continue to burn all through the long night which descended on Christendom. There is a singular concurrence of evidence in favour of their high antiquity. Their traditions invariably point to an unbroken descent from the earliest times, as regards their religious belief. The Nobla Leycon, which dates from the year 1100 [recent German criticism refers the Nobla Leycon to a later date, but still one anterior to the Reformation], goes to prove that the Waldenses of Piedmont did not owe their rise to Peter Waldo of Lyons, who did not appear till the latter half of that century (1169). The Nobla Leycon though a poem, is in reality a confession of faith, and could have been composed only after some considerable study of the system of Christianity, in contradistinction to the errors of Rome. How could a Church have arisen with such a document in her hands? Or how could these herdsmen and vine-dressers, shut up in their mountains, have detected the errors against which they bore testimony, and found their way to the truths of which they made open profession in times of darkness like these? If we grant that their religious beliefs were the heritage of former ages, handed down from an evangelical ancestry, all is plain; but if we maintain that they were the discovery of the men of those days, we assert what approaches almost to a miracle. Their greatest enemies, Claude Seyssel of Turin (1517), and Reynerius the Inquisitor (1250), have admitted their antiquity, and stigmatised them as "the most dangerous of all heretics, because the most ancient."

 

[Eliyahu]

At the moment, the Faith of the Non-Catholic Christians can be confirmed

Peterobrusians ( by around 1125) - Albigenes/Waldenisans ( 1254)

Both are undeniable from the sources of RCC.

What we may lack at this stage is the Confession of Peter Waldo and his followers after 1182 when they were excommunicated, before his death around 1218.

I personally believe that they became more faithful to the Bibel instead of leaning on RCC after their excommunication.

Peter de Bruys must have been a great man in the Lord when we read his confession and argument against RCC.

 

[David Lamb]

Thanks, David, that one must have slipped past me! D'oh!

That's OK Matt. I only found out be looking ot up on the net.

 

[CarpentersApprentice]

Read this

http://www.reformedreader.org/history/wylie/ch01.htm

Their greatest enemies, Claude Seyssel of Turin (1517), and Reynerius the Inquisitor (1250), have admitted their antiquity, and stigmatised them as "the most dangerous of all heretics, because the most ancient."

Which particular writings of theirs are you referring to?

Reynerius, if I recall correctly, did not hold this opinion directly. He was repeating what some other unspecified people thought.

CA

 

[Eliyahu]

Which particular writings of theirs are you referring to?

Reynerius, if I recall correctly, did not hold this opinion directly. He was repeating what some other unspecified people thought.

CA

You cannot deny that Reinerius transferred what he heard from the Inquisition and from his life with Albigenes to the Catholic authority. If you disapprove his report, you are disapproving the whole records of Roman Catholics. Reinerius recorded what he heard and confirmed from the interrogation.

If you deny it for your convenience, you are eager and willing to make mistakes in judging the history. Nobody can deny such facts of the faith of the Believers outside RCC unless anyone is willing to distort the history or to accept the perverted history.


One thing that we cannot get from his report is that we have no information about Peter Waldo for his life during 1182-1218 AD. His report was made only after 1250, around 1254. However, even Reinerius do not refer to Peter Waldo for the start of Albigenesian Faith which is the same as Waldensians' faith but to the time of Pope Sylvester or even earlier than that.

We can clearly notice the great similarity between Petrobrusians and the Albigenes reported by Reinerius as their faith statements are the same.

 

[ReformedBaptist]

Which particular writings of theirs are you referring to?

Reynerius, if I recall correctly, did not hold this opinion directly. He was repeating what some other unspecified people thought.

CA

To get into the enemies tesimony of their antiquity I would have to grab Peter Felix's work, which is at my house. Wylie is a credible source, although secondary.

 

[CarpentersApprentice]

To get into the enemies tesimony of their antiquity I would have to grab Peter Felix's work, which is at my house. Wylie is a credible source, although secondary.

OK. Let me know what the footnote in in Felix says when you get home.

Thanks.

CA

 

[ReformedBaptist]

OK. Let me know what the footnote in in Felix says when you get home.

Thanks.

CA

If I don't get to it before my business trip, I will after.

 

[CarpentersApprentice]

If I don't get to it before my business trip, I will after.

Have a safe trip.


CA

 

[CarpentersApprentice]

You cannot deny that Reinerius transferred what he heard from the Inquisition and from his life with Albigenes to the Catholic authority. If you disapprove his report...

Eliyahu,

I am not denying or disapproving what was said.

At this point I am trying to discover and understand just exactly what Claude and Reynerius did say. As I indicated above, I do recall Reynerius making a statement to the effect that some people thought that the Waldensians went back to ancient times. This, however, is not the same as he himself admitting their antiquity.

And our understanding of the statement must be further tempered by not knowing who the "some people" are that he is referring to.

CA

 

[CarpentersApprentice]

These are the quotes I found from Rainerius that seem to address the Wylie passage noted by ReformedBaptist:

“The Poor of Lombardy {say} that the Church of Christ subsisted in the bishops and other prelates down to the time of the Blessed Sylvester, and in him it fell away until they themselves restored it. Nevertheless, they assert that there were always some who feared God and were saved.”

Extract from The Summa of Rainerius Sacconi.
Quoted in Heresies of the High Middle Ages. Page 346.

*************************************************

“Among all these Sects {Manichaeans, Arians, Runcarii and Leonists}, which still are, or have been, none is more pernicious to the Church than that of the Leonists… because it is older; for some say that it has existed from the time of Sylvester, some from the time of the Apostles.”

Extract from Chapter 4 (On the Sects of Ancient Heretics) by Reinerius Sacco.

“Observe, that the sect of Poor Men of Lyons, who are also called Leonists, arose in the following manner — once when the principal citizens were assembled in Lyons, it happened that one of them died suddenly, in the presence of the company; whereby one of them was so much alarmed, that he immediately distributed a large property to the poor. And from this cause a great multitude flocked to him, whom he instructed to embrace voluntary poverty, and to be imitators of Christ, and the Apostles.”

Extract from Chapter 5 (Of the Sects of Modern Heretics) by Reinerius Sacco.

Quoted in Facts and Document Illustrative of the History, Doctrine and Rites, of The Ancient Albigenses & Waldenses by S.R. Maitland (1832?). Pages 405-407.

*************************************************

These two extracts may be from the same document. Per HHMA, there are more than 50 manuscripts of Rainerius' tract still existing today. As in my earlier post the {} are my additions to clarify the sentence.

CA

 

[CarpentersApprentice]

In the HHMA quote it is apparent that Rainerius is repeating what the Waldensians said about themselves. Thus, he allows that the Poor believe this; but he gives no indication of his personal opinion.

It seems to be the Facts & Documents quote from Chapter 4 that Wylie and others recall to demonstrate that Rainerius personally admits to Waldensian antiquity. After all, he says that the "Leonists" are older than the Manichaeans and the Arians. In my opinion, however, there are two problems with this interpretation:

1. Rainerius again uses the phrase "some say" rather than "I say." Indicating that it is the opinion of others, not his.

2. The extract from Chapter 5 indicates how "older" Rainerius thinks the Waldensians are. In recounting how the Leonists "arose" he tell one of the stories associated with Peter Waldo, although he does not use Peter's name.

Thus, rather than admitting their antiquity, Rainerius - by offering this story as the event wherein the Waldensians began - demonstrates, even if unintentionally, his belief that the Waldensians began with Peter Waldo.

CA

 

[CarpentersApprentice]

Concerning Claude Seyssel, the other person mentioned in ReformedBaptist's reference:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Claude_de_Seyssel

His book The Monarchy of France (Yale Univ Press, June 1981) is still in print.

I still wonder what he has to say about the Waldensians.

CA

 

[Eliyahu]

Eliyahu,

I am not denying or disapproving what was said.

At this point I am trying to discover and understand just exactly what Claude and Reynerius did say. As I indicated above, I do recall Reynerius making a statement to the effect that some people thought that the Waldensians went back to ancient times. This, however, is not the same as he himself admitting their antiquity.

And our understanding of the statement must be further tempered by not knowing who the "some people" are that he is referring to.

CA

This is OK.

 

[Eliyahu]

In the HHMA quote it is apparent that Rainerius is repeating what the Waldensians said about themselves. Thus, he allows that the Poor believe this; but he gives no indication of his personal opinion.

It seems to be the Facts & Documents quote from Chapter 4 that Wylie and others recall to demonstrate that Rainerius personally admits to Waldensian antiquity. After all, he says that the "Leonists" are older than the Manichaeans and the Arians. In my opinion, however, there are two problems with this interpretation:

1. Rainerius again uses the phrase "some say" rather than "I say." Indicating that it is the opinion of others, not his.

2. The extract from Chapter 5 indicates how "older" Rainerius thinks the Waldensians are. In recounting how the Leonists "arose" he tell one of the stories associated with Peter Waldo, although he does not use Peter's name.

Thus, rather than admitting their antiquity, Rainerius - by offering this story as the event wherein the Waldensians began - demonstrates, even if unintentionally, his belief that the Waldensians began with Peter Waldo.

CA

1. What is clear is that there existed some substantial group of the believers outside RCC before the Reformation.

2. At least there existed some people who believed their spiritual ancestors traced back to Sylvester time, not only the today's baptists or brethren.

3. Reinerius must have held much more vivid story about the antiquity of the Believers movement outside RCC, than we hear today, and his report doesn't say anything for the initiation by Peter Waldo. We should avoid such bias which has occurred in so many historians and histories. What he did was the transfer of the information which he obtained from the interrogation and his experience wi Albigenes, from which we can get the glympse of the other side of the history.

 

[Eliyahu]

I heard there is a prime source of Leonists or Lyonese believers which I have not obtained, but is quite antique as much as Bazaar Heraclides ( 1895) Key of Truth( 1895), and as this Reinerius report. I will pursue it someday.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Eliyahu...How could Lateran Council ( 1139) condemn the Waldensians for the rejection of Infant Baptism if Waldensians were started only by Pierre Waldo?

The Lateran Council of 1139 did enforce infant baptism by severe measures, and successive councils condemned the Waldenses for rejecting it. (Wall)...
http://www.geocities.com/I_hate_spam...ses2.html#7ch1

GE

Eliyahu, Do you know the 'background' of this website? Could it perhaps be the South-African based website to my best knowledge the most vehement oppser of Reformation-Christianity possible. I have corresponded with the young medical doctor a few times. He is a devout Roman Catholic, and a pleasant human being, is all I can say. But just maybe he tampere with the 'originals' of his sources a bit? I won't know ...

 

[CarpentersApprentice]

I heard there is a prime source of Leonists or Lyonese believers which I have not obtained, but is quite antique as much as Bazaar Heraclides ( 1895) Key of Truth( 1895), and as this Reinerius report. I will pursue it someday.

I am unfamiliar with "Bazaar Heraclides" (good hunting on this one), but the "Key of Truth" is a document about the Paulicians, not the Waldensians.

CA